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FBI, ATF Battle for Control Of Cases
The Washington Post ^ | May 10, 2008 | Jerry Markon

Posted on 05/10/2008 10:35:03 AM PDT by Towed_Jumper

Conflict between two Federal agencies leads to chaos and conflict...who knew?

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Government; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: banglist
Turf battles in the time of terror...this does not give me a warm-fuzzy
1 posted on 05/10/2008 10:35:03 AM PDT by Towed_Jumper
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To: Towed_Jumper
No matter who wins, when it comes to rights, the citizens will ultimately lose.

BLOAT

2 posted on 05/10/2008 10:38:22 AM PDT by DCBryan1 (Arm Pilots&Teachers. Build the Wall. Export Illegals. Profile Muslims. Execute child molesters RFN!)
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To: Joe Brower

Joe, One for the Bang List if you feel it’s appropriate.


3 posted on 05/10/2008 10:38:39 AM PDT by Towed_Jumper (Stephen Hopkins: Founding Father who had Cerebral Palsy.."My hand trembles, my heart does not.")
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To: Towed_Jumper; harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; ..
The FBI and ATF have been at odds for a long time. Read their respective reports on the Waco incident; very educational.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

4 posted on 05/10/2008 10:40:46 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: Towed_Jumper

I think their turf battles have been going on for some time now.


5 posted on 05/10/2008 10:46:31 AM PDT by processing please hold ( "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.")
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To: Towed_Jumper

Well everyone should stay low until the shooting is over.


6 posted on 05/10/2008 10:46:51 AM PDT by festus (Tagline removed.)
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To: Towed_Jumper

ATF should not exist.


7 posted on 05/10/2008 10:52:19 AM PDT by Steve Van Doorn (*in my best Eric cartman voice* 'I love you guys')
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To: Steve Van Doorn

With many of its officials prosecuted as members of a criminal civil-right-violating conspiracy.


8 posted on 05/10/2008 10:57:39 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (<===Non-bitter, Gun-totin', Typical White American)
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To: Steve Van Doorn
ATF should not exist.

Photobucket

9 posted on 05/10/2008 10:58:05 AM PDT by processing please hold ( "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.")
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To: Steve Van Doorn

Unless the FBI is spelled out in the Constitution, the FBI shouldn’t exist either.


10 posted on 05/10/2008 11:30:03 AM PDT by coloradan (The US is becoming a banana republic, except without the bananas - or the republic.)
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To: coloradan

The FBI should investigate only government officials at all levels, from federal to city.


11 posted on 05/10/2008 11:49:30 AM PDT by wastedyears (The US Military is what goes Bump in the night.)
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To: wastedyears
The FBI should investigate only government officials at all levels, from federal to city.

RIGHT!

And the BATF should be done away with!

12 posted on 05/10/2008 11:58:25 AM PDT by SUSSA
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To: Steve Van Doorn
ATF should not exist.

Right you are!!

13 posted on 05/10/2008 12:02:54 PM PDT by SUSSA
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To: processing please hold
With apologies to the FReeper I stole this from...


14 posted on 05/10/2008 12:26:40 PM PDT by VR-21
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To: Steve Van Doorn

AMEN


15 posted on 05/10/2008 12:27:24 PM PDT by Gaffer
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To: VR-21

There ya go, an AFT I can appreciate. ;)


16 posted on 05/10/2008 12:28:03 PM PDT by processing please hold ( "It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.")
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To: Towed_Jumper

ping


17 posted on 05/10/2008 12:30:33 PM PDT by TYVets
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To: Towed_Jumper
The Gestapo and the S.S.

What's the difference?

18 posted on 05/10/2008 12:49:18 PM PDT by Tolkien (Another day, another 1.603 million miles around the sun.)
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To: Tolkien

The Gestapo and the S.S.
What’s the difference?”

The Gestapo was the FBI of the SS.


19 posted on 05/10/2008 12:55:23 PM PDT by doxteve
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To: VR-21
Outside of Austin, in the Hill Country, there is this marvelous sign:

Gas
Beer
Bait
Barbecue
Pool

What else would one want in life...???

20 posted on 05/10/2008 1:00:06 PM PDT by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA: Ignorance on Parade)
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To: doxteve
A Nazi is a Nazi is a Nazi.

A Jackbooted thug is a Jackbooted thug is a Jackbooted thug.

The FBI and BATF are anti-freedom loving tyrants.

21 posted on 05/10/2008 1:17:58 PM PDT by Tolkien (Another day, another 1.603 million miles around the sun.)
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To: Joe Brower

Probably also local law enforcement.

ATF is an organization with no real purpose whose fuinction is to create one.

Last night on the Lou Dobbs show (He’s pro-Second Amendment) he reviewed the case involving some veteran in Wisconsin who is being railroaded by ATF and the local prosecutor because his gun jammed and ran off on full automatic. ATF claims he had a fully automatic weapo, despite the fact that the manufacturer ahd been warned of misfires of this nature by the Federal Gov.

Dobbs interviewed a national law-enfocrement organization rep and he said a similar case was tried and lost on appeal and this guy had dopne nothing wrong, but ATF and the Federal Prosecutor in this case was asting time and money on a bogus case.

It seems we have a lot of Federal Prosecutors like that idiot Sutton who have a political agenda instead of a law enforcment one.


22 posted on 05/10/2008 1:49:26 PM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: okie01
What else would one want in life...???

Ammo, of course.

23 posted on 05/10/2008 1:58:33 PM PDT by Slings and Arrows ("Code Pink should guard against creating stereotypes in the Mincing Community." --Titan Magroyne)
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To: okie01
"What else would one want in life...??? "

Considering it's the Hill Country...nothing.

24 posted on 05/10/2008 4:54:44 PM PDT by VR-21
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To: FreedomPoster
Look up US Code. Title 18. Section 241 and 242.

Damn right the BATFE should not exist...

25 posted on 05/10/2008 6:21:57 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (What would a free man do?)
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To: okie01

A gun shop

And a Guitar Center.

:)


26 posted on 05/11/2008 6:34:16 AM PDT by wastedyears (The US Military is what goes Bump in the night.)
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To: FreedomPoster
With many of its officials prosecuted as members of a criminal civil-right-violating conspiracy.

In a republic, as distinct from a totalitarian anarchy, government personnel who without legitimate justification do things that would be illegal for non-government personnel, should be punished at least as severely as would non-government personnel doing those same things.

Any chance of a republic being re-established within the next millennium?

27 posted on 05/11/2008 10:38:38 AM PDT by supercat
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To: supercat

Jerry Pournelle calls much of what the government does “anarcho-tyranny”. It’s a pretty apt descriptor.

http://jerrypournelle.com/archives2/archives2view/view268.html#Anarch


28 posted on 05/11/2008 12:19:01 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (<===Non-bitter, Gun-totin', Typical White American)
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To: FreedomPoster
Jerry Pournelle calls much of what the government does “anarcho-tyranny”. It’s a pretty apt descriptor.

I hadn't realized Chaos Manor was still around. I'd thought it folded with byte.

I'll have to google "anarcho-tyranny" and see exactly what Samuel Francis (the coiner) meant. My intended meaning for the term "totalitarian anarchy" is a bit different form the meaning Mr. Pournelle is ascribing to "a-t" (not sure about Mr. Francis). His uses the term "tyranny" to refer refer merely to the fact that the government goes out of its way to prosecute what it can (whether or not such prosecution serves justice), and "anarcho" to refer merely to the fact that it's not very good at stopping real crime. I view Totalitarian Anarchy a bit differently.

Under complete Totalitarian Anarchy, the people exist to serve the state; the people are allowed no rights beyond those which those in power choose to give them. Agents of the government, however, are not bound by the same laws that bind the people. Indeed, except to the extent that their actions would affect those higher up in government (including by doing overly severe damage to the government's reputation), they're hardly bound by any law whatever.

Totalitarian Anarchy is quite similar to feudalism. The primary differences are

  1. Under feudalism, lords may have essentially plenary power over peasants, but their authority is granted by a supreme government (typically that of the king); under Totalitarian Anarchy, the lords have no legitimate claim of authority beyond their ability to get away with taking it.
  2. Under feudalism, lords have a legitimate grant of authority, and need make no pretense of being anything other than what they are. Totalitarian Anarchy requires that the government maintain the appearance of legitimacy, so the government may create and operate agencies to sustain the illusion of a free and lawful society.
We're not all the way to Totalitarian Anarchy yet, but we're getting there. The only way I can see to buck the trend is to recognize certain government agents for what they are.

If a government agent breaks into someone's property in the absence of either (1) what he reasonably believes to be a warrant authorizing his manner of entry into the property in question, or (2) the presence of what the agent reasonably believes to be sufficient exigent circumstances to justify entry, then why should that agent not be regarded as a burglar (if he intends and expects to avoid contact with occupants) or a robber (if he expects or intends to initiate contact)?

Is there any reason a truly legitimate government would not have prosecuted all the agents involved in the original Waco raid with eleven counts of felony murder? They all conspired to commit a break-in at the Davidians' home. None of them knew of any plan to actually serve the warrant, thus none could have reasonably believed that their break-in was legal. Further, the break-in was planned well in advance, implying that it was not necessitated by exigent circumstances. Why, then, should the agents not be regarded as robbers, and why should the Felony Murder rule not hold them accountable for the eleven deaths resulting from their crime?

29 posted on 05/11/2008 1:36:56 PM PDT by supercat
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To: supercat

The issue of rogue police agencies and prosecutors of all stripes, local and Federal, is huge. The CATO page on raids gone bad is a great example that highlights part of the problem. What you suggest would go a long way towards substantially reducing those sort of incidents.


30 posted on 05/11/2008 2:05:52 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (<===Non-bitter, Gun-totin', Typical White American)
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To: FreedomPoster
What you suggest would go a long way towards substantially reducing those sort of incidents.

The question is, for whom is the slide into Totalitarian Anarchy an unfortunate side-effect of their favored policies, and for whom is it actually the objective?

31 posted on 05/11/2008 2:07:32 PM PDT by supercat
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