Posted on 05/09/2008 9:49:13 AM PDT by craig61a
Did school officials react properly to students who did not stand for the Pledge of Allegiance?
(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...
Jawohl!!!
While I don’t like it, the SCOTUS has said you can’t be forced to say the pledge. It may be against your beliefs to pledge to a flag anyway, and who should force you? But, I still don’t like it much depsite agreeing with that idea bit. It is a tough one.
This is what the “great entitlements experiment” will continue to bring!
Standing and placing your right hand over your heart is a practice that used to be graded! It was called ‘citizenship’ and it should be returned in the interest of the trash run though ‘schools’ learning a modicum of etiquette.
Opinion ping!
This is interesting- with FR as the referring page I got the “results” page for the poll. Using a different freshly opened browser I got to the question page directly.
ymmv
Link to vote: http://www.startribune.com/polls/18800959.html
It probably turned into an authority issue actually. The teacher told them to stand, they refused, the teacher ordered it and they still refused. She/he got upset that the kids were not obeying their commands in the classroom and then it turned into a them vs. me with the teacher, who probably was so disgruntled the principle had to back her/him up.
This happened in liberal Minnesota, amazing.
Ok, so where’s the actual story? What were the kids doing during the pledge? Were they sitting quietly or disrupting the class? Sorry, but you can’t just throw a poll out there without the background info.
Were their legs broken or paralyzed?
If no, then the school did the right thing as far as I’m concerned.
*grumbles* ungrateful little bastards...
the scool policy is you must stand but you do not have to recite the pledge so they were not being forced to do anything that wasn’t in the school policy..
Sorry, but I’m not one for pledging allegiance to a government, no matter what government it is.
The creator of the pledge, Francis Bellamy, said that he wrote it to teach obedience to the state as a virtue, something I would completely expect in totalitarian countries, not here.
The school typical of schools today is wrong. None of the links went to the actual article, but as long as the students were not disrupting the pledge, they have every right not to stand nor say it.
It does speak volume of what the students are being taught. If they were correctly taught about the US they would want to stand out of respect and possible pledge. And what is the point of a fake pledge in schools where they teach students the US is evil.
That was my impression, too. My junior high school principal was like that. He treated every little thing as an affront to his authority, and it telegraphed his insecurity for all to see.
I disagree.
For 2 reasons, I don’t want people standing if they don’t respect our flag or our country.
1) Forced patriotism doesn’t work.
2) Part of living in a free country is having the freedom to do what you want, even if its the wrong thing.
Besides, those that don’t stand make it easier to determine who needs to be taken out behind the woodshed! ;)
You WILL stand at attention and pledge allegiance to the state, or face the consequences!!!
In all seriousness I realize you can’t enforce such things, my reaction was more at the lack of patriotism among young people today.
>> It may be against your beliefs to pledge to a flag anyway, and who should force you?
It against my beliefs to be forced to pay for public education.
There was an incident similar to this several years ago in one of our school districts.
The students are not required to say the Pledge but they are required to stand.
I don't think they were being told to say the pledge or make the oath, just stand up while everyone else does.
While I don’t like it, the SCOTUS has said you can’t be forced to say the pledge. It may be against your beliefs to pledge to a flag anyway, and who should force you? But, I still don’t like it much depsite agreeing with that idea bit. It is a tough one.Exactly, that ruling goes back to 1941.
I do agree with it. If the schools come up with some stupidass "Promises to the Earth" or diversity pledge or some such nonsense and we want our kids to be able to abstain, it makes sense to support these kids.
-Eric
I can see why one might have a problem with reciting the Pledge, or anything written by a Socialist minister, although I kinda doubt that's why they didn't stand.
You don’t teach the first amendment by requiring people to be “patriotic.”
OK, OK, good points have been made, and I don’t support state-forced fake patriotism.
My comment was more just a lash out against little ignorant bastards that don’t appreciate America than anything else.
A little over 30 years ago their was a girl in my class in Jr. High that did not stand during the pledge. When I asked her why she told me she was a Jehovah’s Witness and apparently it is against their religion.
What do kids know about patriotism except from their parents?
I understand that, but forcing anyone to do something like stand and recite a pledge goes against everything this country stands for. In fact, doing so may only make people resent it.
A lack of patriotism or love of country is not the result of not saying a pledge every morning. Likewise, refusing to pledge allegiance to a government that has freedom as it’s cornerstone does not mean that someone doesn’t love his country.
Another case of the inmates running the asylum. These kids need to respect authority -teachers and do as they are told. There are no boundaries for kids any more at all. Then they drag in lawyers for the little darlings and when they grow up its if it feels good do it and they think they can do whatever they want without consequences.
See post 26.
The Military has turned many lost souls into honorable citizens who are certainly patriotic. Your second point fails to mention law which is a necessary component of a free civilized society.
This is actually such a “gray issue” that I don’t see a definitive answer to how to fully resolve this so that everybody is satisfied.
I understand that, but how does forcing kids to say the pledge of allegiance change that?
My larger point is that the flag and government are fallible, as all things made by men are fallible. Requiring people to pledge allegiance to something that is fallible is wrong.
Another 4 response poll where the one wrong answer is made to look more significant.
Yeah, lets’ force them to be patriotic. You don’t see the contradiction of restricting freedom and trying to teach the freedom? There is no “responsibility” to be patriotic. It’s something we all learn and feel. You don’t learn it by being forced to do it.
It is. As I understand it, they believe it wrong to express allegience to anything/anyone other than God. While I do say the pledge, I can respect that philosophy.
There are plenty of people from this country that don’t stand due to religion. Jehovah’s Witnesses are some of them.
Their faith in a perfect God is more important to them than a flag or a government made by imperfect men.
I’m not a JW, but I do understand their religion and agree that they shouldn’t have to stand, nor should anyone else.
They can sit respectfully while the rest of us pledge.
They government does not own us. The government or it’s schools are not in a position to demand that we pledge allegiance to it for any extra-Constitutional reason.
Considering the amount of liberal educators out there, I would happily encourage my kids to question authority.
He was a Christian Socialist. Of course he believed in allegiance to the state.
See: http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/bellamy_f/bellamy_f.html
I dunno on this one. Lot’s of good arguments.
Link to the original story/with poll.
http://www.startribune.com/nation/18800444.html
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Forced patriotism leads to unpatriotism.
Patriotism should be in one’s heart, whether you wear it on your sleeve is up to the individual.
Agreed this was probably an authority issue, but to me, forcing one to stand for the pledge is not a whole lot different than forcing one to say the pledge.
I don’t like the fact that kids won’t stand or say it, but I think it is a first amendment issue.
37% hate America so far. We are talking Minnesota though.
I think it’s a first amendment issue if they were forced to say the pledge, but they aren’t.
The school handbook states that everyone must stand for the pledge, but they do not have to recite it. By not standing they are causing a distraction to everyone else, so they have to stand up for 30 seconds. They are not being forced to say it, so their constitutional rights guaranteed by the first amendment are not infringed at all, at least IMHO.
I guarantee the ACLU doesn’t see it that way, so it will go into the courts and they will decide I guess.
Yeah, freedom and liberty is overrated.
Forcing a pledge of allegiance to man-made and fallible institutions is much better.
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