Lutheran Ping!
Alleluia! Christ is Risen!
Posted on 04/19/2008 1:07:11 AM PDT by Charles Henrickson
When about 75 people gathered outside the international headquarters of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod this week, it was a rare display of public dissension among the members of a relatively quiet Christian denomination. . . .
When the church pulled the plug on its KFUO-AM program, "Issues, Etc.," and fired its host and producer, the show's fans turned up the volume. . . .
The show had a conservative, traditionalist theological bent. . . .
Many of the protesters said the current administration is too focused on recent evangelical megachurch growth models instead of on traditional Lutheran doctrine. . . .
"This is a symptom of a much larger problem," said the Rev. Charles Henrickson, pastor of St. Matthew Lutheran Church in Bonne Terre, Mo. "This is about whether we retain our Lutheran identity or just blend in with American evangelicalism."
(Excerpt) Read more at stltoday.com ...
Hey, I know that guy! He's a FReeper!
I could only post about 100 words worth of excerpts (per FR rules), but the whole article (linked above) is worth reading and discussing.
Needs a Lutheran Ping.
Missouri-Synod Lutherans protest cancellation of radio show (Issues Etc)
Ja shoor!
Hey, I just read your tagline, so I guess it’s for real!
Many moons ago, in the Kennedy Administration, I initiated a series of Sunday morning radio broadcasts of services from our local Church. I think the church belonged to what was called “ELC” at the time.
For grins, I recently tuned in on the web to that local station (since I now live far from my home territory) and they’re still carrying the broadcasts. They precede it with a half-hour of “The Lutheran Hour” (hmmm...sumpin’ odd there).
He FReeps with a lyrical mindset!
Our local radio station (small town Illinois) runs a half-hour of the Lutheran Hour every Sunday, initiating from our Church. For awhile I was webmaster for our Church’s LCMS CTSMemberConnect website and would bring home tapes of the services for uploading the sermons to the site in mp3 format.
But our boards never could get the hang of (or get interested in) using the website for communicating, and I finally urged the council to drop it. It wasn’t worth the cost. We still have our local Church/School website, but the CTS site could have been very useful. Oh, well...
Judging from what I’ve read about “The Afternoon Show”, the station may not have helped itself out of that $3.5 million shortfall by substituting it for “Issues, Etc.” Of course, one wonders just what portion of that shortfall was really due to “Issues, Etc.” and not the other programming.
I don't know what Dr. Kieschnick's problem is, but ticking off a large number of your synod is not what I consider very smart. I grew up with several Kieschnicks in my younger days in central Texas in the LCMS.
I thought evangelical church growth WAS the “doctrine” of every Christian denomination.
Lutheran Ping!
Alleluia! Christ is Risen!
Amazing how the shadows of Samuel Simon Schmucker and Bejamin Kurtz now extend to St. Louis, Missouri!
For those who don't know North American Lutheran history, the above named were 19th century clergy who advocated gutting the Augsburg Confesssion in general and abadoning the doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist in particular in favor of a generic Protestantism which they termed "American Lutheranism". They also were enthusiastic supporters of American revivalism, altar calls, and the use of the "anxious bench".
Awesome thanks for pinging me!
lightman can you add me to your Lutheran ping list?
They weren't trying to 'help themselves out' in that way. They were removing obstacles to their agenda, which Issues Etc was simply by teaching discernment to its listeners.
He's a church growth nut. SO they invest in increasing numbers, as if that means the true church is growing. They end up compromising or distracting from the true message of the church by which the church actually grows.
Definitions are crucial. Kieschnick preaches "Rick warren" and "Bill hybels" style church growth, which is not Scriptural at all. (though they would of course claim otherwise.)
“A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers. . . . My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. A stranger they will not hear, but they will flee from him.”
Read my post # 13 upstream.
Those who fail to learn from the past...
Ironically, it was Schmuckerism that led to the formation of the General Conference in which the antecedants of the LCMS found a home for a while.
I do think one is obliged to preach the "whole" Word, but in limited time, first things first.
"I'm not sure where this idea of division comes from."
I'm not joking when I say I have seriously considered simply crossing the Tiber. I've had it with every single protestant denomination falling into liberal megachurchofwhatshappeningnowrickwarrenemergingchurch land. Now my LCMS is going the same direction under Kieschnick. At this point, if it comes down to confessional, liturgical orthodoxy or non-confessonal, non-liturgical (guitars and bongos, etc) and megachurch rickwarrenville...I guess I'll just have to learn that "Hail, Mary..." thing...
That is one reason we left a large congregation and settled for a much smaller one. We know almost every members' name and something about their family. Getting "lost" in those mega churches where everyone is a number is not what I look for in a congregation.
BTW, can I come to your church? Missouri is about 2,000 miles from me, but...
Send me your ZIP code. I can find you one, you just may need to drive some more minutes.
There are still thousands in the LCMS who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
Well, that's more than a few minutes. . . .
> I guess I’ll just have to learn that “Hail, Mary...” thing...
You’ll only be hurting yourself and your family.
Orthodox worship at home is better than blasphemy, eh?
> popular broadcast for many LCMS members
The show has very strong appeal across denominations. It’s better to hold a position clearly, even if in error, than it is to hold all positions, or no position, since that is radically dishonest and deceptive. The petition to bring the show back has been signed by many representatives of other confessions.
> poor decision to change the program schedule
The show was cancelled and the producer and host fired.
> There are still thousands in the LCMS who have not bowed the knee to Baal
Yes but they could use a prophet.
It's fascinating to hear very conservative Calvinists interact with a very conservative LCMS Lutheran. They have a tremendous amount in common.
So where do I find a "confessional" and "traditional" LCMS church - how do you know? My LCMS church still has a "traditional" service but is definitely going in the other direction and I'm at a loss.
Well, that is the question, isn't it.
"Traditional service" in my (EFCA, some Lutheran history back when, but now generic evangelical) congregation isn't all that much different from "contemporary". Less noisy, and the song we sing are (only a little bit) older.
And, we ought to jump ship only for the weightiest reasons, in my opinion.
I'm not joking when I say I have seriously considered simply crossing the Tiber. I've had it with every single protestant denomination falling into liberal megachurchofwhatshappeningnowrickwarrenemergingchurch land.
Justification by faith? I thought that was supposed to be a big Lutheran thing. Rome is not on board with that. They anathematize those that believe it. And that's just one of the show stoppers. The Papacy? The Mary cult? Rome has never tempted me.
And jumping the Tiber may not even get you what you want. From what I've seen in some of the RC threads, they have their own problems with the "RC church of what's happenin'", liturgical innovation/irregularity and bad contemporary music.
is "The White Horse Inn."
A bit "ditto" to that. If you liked Issues, Etc. you will like WHI.
White Horse Inn is great!
St. Louis has given us two great pastors—very confessional and traditional.
Nicely done, my brother.
Which is really the salient question that Strand/SP K has NOT answered:
How does the production costs if IE compare to other programming and then to the relative “time slot” losses for KFUO.
Details...pesky details.
Of course! They will call you critical for raising questions like that. or “you elected us to do our jobs, now let us do them” or “trust us to do them.” or something like that.
Just beware. It starts in small congregations because they often are looking at the megachurches and feeling pressure to grow in membership numbers because they are small.
Perfect graphic!
Yeah well they're working really hard to kick out those who resist their dividing influence, hence when they get their way, no division!
What message are these people “won to Christ” with?
And what message are they given to help them grow?
The modern church is failing to teach right from wrong, what sin is, and the consequences from sin. They fail to teach "go your way and sin no more", thus the infiltration and compromise.
LS, getting people to pray a prayer does not get them saved. In fact, no organization can get someone saved. As Terrier Gal legitimately asks, what is the message they are responding to? As a fellow Baptist, I know you have some grasp of what the true gospel is. Is that is what is being preached? Also, while none of us knows the state of another person’s heart and there is a general hesitancy not to “judge” another person’s salvation - there is a more dangerous tendency to proclaim people “Saved” when the fruit of salvation is lacking in their lives. Sometimes this fruit is lacking because the people aren’t discipled (in which case the Great Commission isn’t being followed). But sometimes, it is because they have been given a false assurance that they are saved since they walked that aisle, said that prayer, and shook the congregation’s hand. I would rather offend by questioning the salvation of one lacking fruit and let a person go unoffended into Hell.
Again, getting into who is, or is not "lacking fruit" is incredibly dangerous. (Oh, and the process by which people announce their decision to follow Christ is not "getting people to pray a prayer." It's far, far more involved than that.)
I absolutely agree that many of these churches do not teach enough on sin, on the consequences, and so on. But the Southern Baptist churches I attended for years, well, that’s ALL they did. They drove away hundreds who otherwise would come (on their own conviction) to see that they were sinning. That’s why there is a place in the body for all sorts of churches. But obviously there is a great need for the seeker churches, just as in the 1950s there was a titanic need for Billy Graham, because the existing churches weren’t reaching people.
I know exactly what you are talking about. Sometimes it is better to remain small and retain the true message.
LS, I disagree. It is more dangerous to see absolutely no change in someone’s life and think they are still okay.
The apostle John spoke of those who left the church as those who were never a part of it to begin with. He was judging their salvation at that point.
Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them, indicating that a certain level of fruit inspection is acceptable. We aren’t to judge in a self-righteous manner, I agree. But, if someone who is deeply involved in sin makes a profession of faith and then continues in the way they were going, then there is a big problem there. You do nobody any favors by ignoring the problem.
There is a reason that the church in America is in big time trouble. Seeker sensitive without being truly Savior sensitive and Salvation sensitive is one of them. Many will come in that day saying Lord, Lord and He will say depart from me, I never knew you. We owe it to the Lord to make every effort that the true gospel is understood. We can’t determine whether someone actually believes. We shouldn’t say “well, you’re not saved” because we don’t know. The church can exclude and discipline members living in sin, and per Paul’s directions, should if they are unrepentant. Still loving people into Hell isn’t really loving them at all. It’s masking the horror to come.
PS- I agree with you about Southern Baptists. Just left that denomination after around 15 years with them. My current church isn’t perfect, by far, nor am I. But, there is a hunger or the Word, a deep love for God, and a desire to see souls saved.
But overall, I think we pretty much agree that we will see a LOT of people in Heaven we absolutely did not expect, and WON'T see some we thought were "locks." My point is, let's let the Lord decide this and you and I need to concentrate on seeing that there are more "locks" as opposed to running around trying to pick and choose who gets to go.
(You probably know the old joke on this about St. Peter giving a tour of Heaven, and there's one group who is speaking in tongues and whooping and hollering. "Who'se that?" asks the new arrival. "Oh," says Peter, "those are the Pentecostals." Then there is a group on their knees totally quiet. "Who are they?" "Oh, those are the Episcopaleans."
Way in the distance, the man sees a group. "Who'se that waaaaayyyy over there." "Shhhhh." says Peter. "Those are the Baptists. They think they are the only ones up here."
Really? You think they do a very good job of “getting people saved”? I think some may be saved through God’s grace but isn’t it more likely that they miss hearing anything about repenting, and mistakenly believe that reciting a few words saves them?
And after saying these few words, it seems that the objective of Rick Warren is to get them into saving the culture - here and abroad.
Once people have a true understanding of who they are as sinners and the greatness of God in saving us, you will see people interacting with society by helping our brothers and sisters. It is a natural reaction. And believers have been doing that since the beginning - Rick Warren seems to think he invented the notion. [He says he doesn’t want to be another parachurch organization - but that is exactly what he is initiating, except he involves others who are not believers in Christ - it’s parachurch PLUS pagans.]
All I can say is, Yes I do.
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