Posted on 04/03/2008 4:20:46 AM PDT by Ravnagora
LOL !
Sick, but funny.
Hi Diocletian,
You are a smart guy and it’s obvious you’re educated, but I have to tell you, “Maher” is one smart and educated guy, too, and he’s going to be a tough contender on these “Yugoslavian” issues.
Amazing how a discussion or Albanian organ-trafficking of Serb body parts turns into the Serbo-Croatian rivalry!
We need to take this to Vegas.
People, place your bets !
Some people look at principles, others at perspectives. I am a person of principles, and I believe Dioclecian is too, although our perspectives are practically opposite. That means I will admit things I don't necessarily like if evidence supports it. It also means that I hold everyone else to the same principle.
I never corresponded with you, so I am doing this in order that you know where I am coming from.
My pedigree: My family is from Serbia, and Belgrade is where all of them lived. I can trace my Serbian ancestry from my father's side back to the later 14th century. The documents about my family exist in the Austrian National Archives.
As a young man, I lived in Zagreb for many years and, also in Derventa (Bosnia) for three, and in Bjelovar (Croatia) for two, but I was too young to remember much from Bjelovar.
I was 17 years old when I left former Yugoslavia and I have been back a few times since then. I also served with military intleligence as a US naval officer in Bosnia in 1996.
I speak and read Serbian fluently, I am devout Serbian Orthodox, I go to church ever Sunday, I write Serbian only in Cyrillic, always have and always will; I do not recognize any other alphabet for that language and never will, and I always transliterate Serbian names and words using standard international transliteration rules applied to other languages that use Cyrillic (Russian, Bulgarian, Ukrainian, etc.)
As far as post #50 is concerned, Dioclecian asked me to look at it and comment on it. Let's see what he said:
That was my experience. People were afraid to say anything openly, and those who did were always treated officially as individual extremists (i.e. "nationalists"), giving the impression that they were few and far in between. Needless to say those who did say anything were dealt with harshly. The regime was very much aware of the danger such outbursts would pose, and the sympathy and admiration the people had for those individuals.
My mother was called a "Serbian goose" in Ilica Street (in Zagreb) because she called me aloud and it was in "ekavski" and it rubbed someone the wrong way. So, Dio's experience and memory matches what I remember. In Derventa, there were "incidents" with Muslims and Serbs that I knew of.
Sometimes even a trivial issue would become an ethnic one. I remember our Muslim neighbors insulting my mother with an ethnic slur over the fact that their apple tree was growing into our yard and I (14 years old at that time) picked one of their apples.
I also attended Zagreb's VI High School (Gimnazija) for two years and know how things were "within." So, yes, Dio is absolutely right that things were bubbling. Only someone completely blind would not have noticed.
Any democratic expression would have seen violence result in one way or another since issues from the First Yugoslavia and from WW2 were never fully resolved, but rather just papered over
Absolutely. Second Yugoslavia was as much of a mistake as the first one. It should have never happened. But the Serbs (actually the Karadjordjevich royal family) is the major culprit.
Let's not forget that the clown prince (no spelling error here) Aleksandar, the one currently masquerading in Belgrade's Beli Dvor, wrote to the NY Times in 1980 (when Tito died) to remind everyone that he is the legitimate heir to the Yugoslav throne and was appealing to Slovenes and Croatians for their support to return the monarchy. He had no problems being with Yugoslavia when it suited him. Now, of course, he would be happy being "just" a Serbian king.
Most Croatians had enough with the second Yugoslavia by 1971 when MASPOK was crushed by Tito
Croatians had it made in Tito's Yugoslavia. They were unhappy with trivial things. The only time they wanted Serbs was right after WWI when the Italians were snatching their coastline and Croats, being on the losing side, had no one to defend them.
Most Serbs felt cheated by the second Yugoslavia and that was expressed in the SANU document
Actually the MASPOK (acronym for "masovni pokret" or massive movement) could be said to represent "most Croatians." Most Serbs were stupid enough to consider themselves "Yugoslavs" and Serbs. Being just a Serb was considered "nationalistic." I remeber as late as 1990 a Novi Sad opera singer saying "Of course I am Serbian, but I am also a Yugoslav." That "attenuation" of "Serbianism" was almost required to avoid being accused of being a "chetnik."
The people around SANU are educated Serbs who knew not only the Serbian reality but our history as well, and our culture, and language, etc. something most Serbs today sadly lack.
The Muslims were quite happy with the second YU, as were the Slovenes until Milosevic began his push for centralization
The Muslims were happy, as were the Albanians in Kosovo, especially after 1974 constitution that gave them virtual independence (Albanian officials did not have to abide by Serbia's courts, and they opened their borders with Albania and allowed massive influx of illegal aliens into the country, used Albanian flag, imported Albanian professors at the Prishtina university, and basically prepared the ground for the events that followed; in 1967 the Albanians constituted only 65% of Kosovo's population; by 1990 it was 90%).
The degree to which the illegal population grew in Kosovo was best exemplified in the early 1980's when the Kosovo's Albanian member of the rotating presidency of Yugoslavia was about to assume as one-year mandate as chairman (President of Presidency!) and it turned out that he was not a Yugoslav citizen!
Slovenia did not have problems with Miloshevich's "centralization." They had issues with the use of the federal language (Serbian) in federal courts and similar trivia. During Miloshevich's time, a mini trade war erupted between Serbia and Slovenia. The problem was not Miloshevich but the constitutional makeup. The 1974 constitution basically created conditions for such problems.
The Slovene-Serb coalition held the first YU together, and played a large part in keeping the second one together
Up to 1974, yes. Right on target. Tito's right hand man was Edvard Kardelj, a Slovene, one of his original lieutenants (the other one was Vladimir Bakaric of Croatia and Aleksandar Rankovic of Serbia; Bakaric and Kardelj died before Tito, and Rankovic was deposed in 1967—but that's another thread)
Now, Yugoslav consciousness reached a peak in the 60s and early 70s, but Croatians of that orientation began to move away from it with MASPOK's end
Again, I would agree very strongly as that has been my experience too, based on my personal observations and readings.
Serbs had a large Yugoslav element, but at the same time Serb nationalists still had some identification with the "Yugoslavia" notion where Croatian nationalists never had
Yugoslavia has a special appeal to the Serbs because that was the only way all Serbs could live in one country. That is, in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia and Macedonia.
The other factor was the political correctness created by the regime. Kocha Popovich was the poster boy of what a "real" (acceptable) Serb would be. He was the "right" kind of a Serb. Frm a rich "bourgeois) family, a Serb by birth and lineage, but internationalist in orientation. In other words, someone who denied his heritage and nationality for the greater good!
I am in a rush this morning and apologize for any spelling errors. I hope this helped shed some light on this issue.
FWIW, I agree wiht maher’s statements regarding Serb origins of many present-day Croats, and Dio and I have had this discussion long time ago. Likewise, maher’s other statement srae supported in fact.
We agree on pretty much everything except this part: Croatians had it made in Tito's Yugoslavia. They were unhappy with trivial things.
This is quite wrong (naturally I'll say this). The Socialist Republic of Croatia was inundated with UDBA and KOS operatives, 1 million Croatians alone had secret files on them. The police was 70%, so that made life quite rough especially in mixed areas and in the countryside. The fact that party membership was the key to success conflicted with Croatians' Roman Catholicism, since you weren't allowed in the Church if you were a party member and you weren't allowed in the party if you went to Church. Serbs in Croatia therefore filled the void and were disproportionately represented in party structures. These are just a couple of points.
The Croatians in BiH fared worst off. Tito's policy for the first 30 after WW2 was to refuse investment in "Ustasha villages and towns" to force Croatians to move abroad, which we did in huge numbers. Only with the rise of Dzemal Bijedic was investment starting to trickle into places like Western Hercegovina. In BiH, regular sweeps were made of Croatian homes and when the Bugojno Group showed up in 1972, thousands upon thousands were routinely detained by the police and by KOS. Naturally I'm leaving out a bunch of stuff.
Croatians formed the majority of political prisoners on Goli Otok and Croatians formed the majority of those assassinated by Yugoslav Secret Services outside of Yugoslavia.
Dio (may I call you that?),
You and I have something very much in common. We both hate Tito’s guts. For different reasons, of course, but I’m sure for some of the same.
Say what you want about Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Hussein, Chavez, etc., but in my humble opinion, Josip Broz was the most shrewd of them all. And the most destructive in the long term.
In your opinion, do you think that what has happened to Yugoslavia over the past 18 years would have happened if he were still alive and in power?
On 1 October 1991 7000 Croats and 3000 Serbs had fled Dubrovnik for their lives. This was the war's first big “ethnic cleansing”. Their houses (the ones not dynamited) are now inhabited by Ustasha squatters. The current Croatian press has published on Dubrovnik now being in total control of criminals engaged in narcotics smuggling and other criminal enterprises. Every decent soul there is disgusted with the current situation.
All the sacrifice of two world wars was a total waste. Germany, in the opinion of Czech officials, has regained diplomatically everything they lost in two world wars.
WSC and FDR would roll over in their graves.
What's interesting is how it actually ended up in light of the fact that Milosevic himself was a banker for Beobanka in NYC during the 1980s and made strong ties with Kissinger and Eagleburger. Milosevic was around 1987 and 1988 seen as a sort of "Yugoslav Gorbachev" and that's what some would have liked him to play....things went screwy instead.
Had Tito still been around (and very, very old) his cult of personality would have put quite the damper on events and most likely have prevented them from spiralling out of control as they did.
The most key moment in the breakup of the ex-YU was when Kadijevic as head of the JNA refused to overthrow the Presidency even though Mesic was blocked from becoming its President. Naturally Tito would not have had an issue in taking on Slovene and Croatian forces in a military fashion, even if it actually got to that point.
Sometimes its very difficult to have an honest discussion, so thanks for keeping it real gentlemen (I use that term loosely here!).
I think Winston Churchill would be rolling over in his grave at some of his own “mistakes” that he made, both in the interim decades between the two world wars and during WWII. But, that’s only if he had a conscience.
He admitted as such that it was one of his biggest mistakes in supporting Tito.
Esteemed Emperor,
Please continue to display your brilliance in argumentation and your splendid rhetoric. An appropriate reply I take from the pen of a German writer to such a critic:
“I am sitting in the littlest room of my house. Your letter is before me. Soon it will be behind me.” Keep ‘em coming...
On 1 October 1991 7000 Croats and 3000 Serbs had fled Dubrovnik for their lives. This was the war's first big “ethnic cleansing”.
First of all, this wasn't cleansing....people left Dubrovnik because it was under siege. They were not forced out by Croatian officials, whether military or political.
Secondly, the first big ethnic cleansing in Croatia took place several months previously in Dalmatia where Croatians were forced out of their homes by the Serbs in Drnis, Vrlika, Knin, Benkovac, and Obrovac.
I'm not even gonna discuss what happened in Petrinja on September 14-18, 1991.
In the Medak Pocket CRO forces attacked the Canadian Princess Pats. See Scott Taylor's reports on that on his website "Esprit de Corps". In Operation Storm 300 000 Serbs were driven out of their centuries old lands that were NOT Croatia under the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Croatia was part of the Hungarian kingdom. And the CRO warriors couldn't do it by themselves. Bill Clinton enabled MPRI (Alexandria VA: the same ilk as Blackwater) to train and equip the CRO army, which made it a practice before battle to inject its heroes with narcotics. Captured by Serbs defending their own lands in Dalmatia, the CRO POWs were lions until the dope wore off. Then they cringed on the floor and cried like babies. There has been a wave of suicides among Croatian veterans of the “Homeland War”.
You admit that 10 000 Dubrovnikers fled the Pearl of the Adriatic. Under fire? No, out of fear of the fascists who had already passed life sentences on the Dubrovnik aristocrats (Gospari)who desired a return to the Free State status that Dubrovnik had had for centuries. Only in 1943 did the CRO dictator Tito include Dubrovnik within the borders of Greater Croatia.
When will you ask the refugees of 1 October 1991 who is living in their stolen houses? Vale Imperator/ See you at the Colosseum, Emperor...
Fleeing dubrovnik
UNESCO reported that Croat forces kept 200 women and children from leaving Dubrovnik on a UNICEF vessel, to keep as human shields and for propaganda purposes (Dan Stets. Knight-Ridder papers USA. 5 December 1991).
WTF are you talking to me for, on this? And have I ever said "all Croats or Albanians are liars"? No, but you throw that belligerent racist propaganda around like it is a fact. It's Ustase BS
If you want to know what I think, Dubrovnik and Dalamatia have a much more complicated history than you are willing to admit. Look it up. Everybody from the Venetians to the Ottomans to French have had their hand in ruling the area. It hasn't always been "part of Croatia"
But that's not the point. Once again, leave it to a handful of Serb-haters to turn a story about Albanians killing Serbs in 2001 for their organs into a platform for re-enacting what happened in Dubrovnik in 1991. Post something about Croatia, and everyone goes silent. But post it about Serbs being victims and every battle every fought in Croatia becomes the topic. Can you spell "red herring"?
In the past you've accused me of lying about the Ustashe killing my whole family in Lika by burning them alive in a Serbian church. You were dead wrong.
With this latest accusation of Serbians not being able to stop lying, you're just plain stupid.
My Grandmother’s family was burnt alive in their home, her and her cousin were the only survivors because they were not at home at the time and arrived while the Ustasa were in the middle of committing the act. They hid until it was safe to flee.
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