Posted on 04/03/2008 4:20:46 AM PDT by Ravnagora
That is why the Serbs were so zealous in destroying Roman Catholic Churches. The Islamists jihadis were hiding in those Catholic Churches and the Serbs were helping you in the WOT by destroying them.
"Christian"Serbs destroying Roman Catholic churches
If you are an American Roman Catholic, the Serbs have "sided with you" by killing jihadis just like the Nazis "sided with you" you by killing Communists.
It would have been great if the Serbs had killed only jihadis but they did not.
If you were not a Serb and you were not Orthodox in your religion, the Serbs deemed you worthy of killing. By that definition, the vast majority of Americans would have been deemed worthy of killing by the Serb ultra-nationalists, simply because they were not ethnic Serbs and simply because they were not Orthodox in their religion.
You have the “Serbs killing Catholics” backwards. It was the other way around in WWII and it was the other way around in the 1990s. Nice try. .... Ravnagora
Try as you might, you can't hide from History.
A common and universal trait of all bullies and ***holes is that they all excel at accusing other people of the kinds of things which they themselves do; that is the basis for most of the accusations we’ve been reading against Serbs over the last fifteen years or thereabouts. The Albanians and Albanian Kosovars are definitely the villains in that picture.
>If you were not a Serb and you were not Orthodox in your religion, the Serbs deemed you worthy of killing.
No, Serb extremists killed people not because they weren’t Serbs or non-Orthodox, but because they saw them as enemies or potential enemies. They wanted to create a Greater Serbia, but Croats and Bosniaks wouldn’t support them, so the Serb militants considered them enemies to be destroyed.
The Croatian government under Tudjman had an addenda to ethnically cleanse Serbs and wrote them out of the constitution before the war. Additionally the Croats started with the kidnappings, torture and murder of Serbs and the looting and blowing up of their property.
Do a bit of research on Tomislav Mercep and Miro Bajramovic and see how Croats were behaving at the beginning of the war.
Comparing Croatia's census' 1991 versus 2002 results you can see a huge drop in the Serb population which went from over 12.2% to only 4.5%. That shows you just who exactly was ethically cleansed once you cut through the fog of anti-Serb propaganda.
In Serbia stand many Catholic churches which never got so much as graffiti on them, despite Croatia and Croats destroying or confiscating Serbian Orthodox property. There is still regular break-ins, theft and assaults on the few remaining Serbian Orthodox churches and priests left behind in Croatia.
Croats were allied strongly with the Muslims at the beginning of the war and operated rape/torture camps together, as well as separately during the war.
They had a fall out in late 1992 in some areas and then put each other in those same torture camps where they'd held Serbs.
After around 16 months of intensifying war between the Croats and Muslims in central and southern Bosnia, the U.S. pressured them into an alliance again.
The Bosnian Muslims ROASTED CAPTURED SERBS ALIVE - and there are photos of this with the victims FULLY NAMED. The Croats continued to DECAPITATE old Serbian men after the Operation Storm in August 1995.
UN reports in October 1995 say that several freshly decapitated old Serbian men were still being discovered each week, but it was down significantly to what it had been earlier - so several a week was a decrease to what was going on in August and September.
The Croatian Catholic clergy was at the forefront of the Ustasha movement in WWII and the Catholic church helped funnel out the most notorious war criminals after the war in the "ratlines". Most went on to South America, Canada, U.S. and Australia where they were unperturbed by the governments of those countries.
addenda should be agenda
That is propaganda -- and a propaganda phrase that was originally used by the Austro-Hungarian Empire to describe what they believed was Serbia's wish to free Bosnian Serbs from the Empire's rule.
What was real was that Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo all wanted the break up of Yugoslavia and "independence" for their regions, and all of them had significant Serb populations within their borders who had been on these lands for centuries. The last time that any of these lands had been "independent" was under NAZI German occupation, when the Croats, Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo Albanians had collaborated with Germany to slaughter Serbs en masse. The Yugoslav govenrment in Serbia did not want a repeat performance of this WWII scenario of mass-murdering Serbs, given that the Croats were reviving all the old symbols of WWII, subsequently scaring the sh*t out of the local Serbs.
Ultimately, all of these groups got most of what they wanted, and the Serbs got crap -- only because we intervened and helped the former Nazi statelets realize their dreams.
Milosevic was a murderous pig. But he wasn't the racist that he was made out to be -- his was a bid for power to keep Yugoslavia in one piece, not one of extermination of the other ethnicities.
Serbs may have been the largest ethnic group in the former Yugoslavia, comprising a little over a third of the pre-war Yugoslav population. That one third of the population could think it could wipe out the other two thirds in order to create "a Greater Serbia" is completely insane, impossible and was not even a thought in any Serb's mind. What they were trying to do was protect the Serb populations in those regions from being annihilated -- but we in the US, had other plans and sided with their enemies.
And, during World War II, we helped arm and funnel weapons to the Soviet Union.
When you have a common enemy that is trying to kill you, arming the enemy of your enemy is common sense.
This video does not show Muslim artillery slamming into the Catholic Croat city of Dubrovnik. That is Serb artillery slamming into the Catholic Croat city of Dubrovnik.
Attack on Dubrovnik, Croatia (a UNESCO World Heritage Site)
If I were a Catholic Croat and the Serbs were shelling my ancient cities and killing my fellow Catholics because they were Catholics, if the Muslims were willing to fight those Serbs, I would be sending those Muslims as many arms as I possibly could.
Way to go Bin Laden, appreciate your candor.
The shelling only minimally damaged Dubrovnik and was aimed at Croat soldiers shooting out at the Yugoslav navy - the commander of which was an ethnic Slovene.
It's famous walls remained intact as did most of its historical buildings and streets.
There was some roof tile damage in the trading of fire but there was donation of new roof tiles enough to cover everything which meant that even those houses with no or little damage got completely new roofs.
Croats shelled the ethnic Serb city of Knin and destroyed and erased many other ethnic Serb villages and towns, even though there was no military there. More Serbs were killed in a few days of Knin shelling than the total number killed in Dubrovnik. It was dozens of times more damaged than Dubrovnik and is still in ruin today.
Then let's discus Mostar.
Subject: to the Guardian: Dubrovnik hoax again
To: letters@guardian.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 11:20
Sir:
Your piece mentions the “...pounding of the beautiful Croatian town of Dubrovnik in 1991. ‘They used ships. Can you believe it?’...
This is a fraud. Who on your staff was bought by Ruder Finn? Since 1991 the press has dozens of times printed the hoax that the Pearl of the Adriatic was reduced to rubble. Those stories were fakes. That Dubrovnik has been rebuilt is exponentially fake. On March 25, 1992, I visited Dubrovnik to see for myself the truth about the war. The Old City of Dubrovnik was never destroyed. It was barely scratched.
Roof tiles blown off by concussion had all been replaced when I visited the city TWO YEARS AGO, THREE MONTHS after the “destruction”. Your writer has a poor vocabulary in English. Buildings are “holed.”
Dubrovnik’s destruction was an invention of PR companies in the hire of the war criminals who broke up Yugoslavia without negotiations. The big bombardment was from PR fakers, not navy guns. — like the Kuwaiti incubator babies hoax used by President Bush to stoke up war fever. PR liars Hill & Knowlton, Ruder Finn, and Waterman Associates have earned millions in fanning the flames of this war.
The press, that’s you, belongs in the war crimes docket with the New World Order thugs for churning out mendacious “news” stories about Serb death camps and rape camps, abetting war and mayhem. The story of an organized Serb rape policy is a racist fraud, like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, propagated to foment hatred and incite war against the innocent. Though it’s not polite any more to slander Afro-American or Jews, Serbs are fair game for the lynch mob.
The “Serb-dominated federal navy” off Dubrovnik was commanded by Admiral Stane Brovet, a Slovene. The target was not the Old City, but the Napoleonic fort of St. Sergius far above Dubrovnik and hotels outside the city walls, where Croatian forces were billeted and because of the presence of refugees, had set up gun positions from which they fired on the federal forces in order to provoke death and destruction. Zagreb’s aim was to provoke a Western attack on the Serbs. On December 5, 1991, Croatian forces mounted a mortar on a flat bed truck running up and down the Stradun taking potshots at naval forces in order to provoke counterfire.
The “Dubrovnik burning” pictures were shot with long lenses. This compresses perspective, making it look like there is no distance between objects that are quite separated in real space. Thus, columns of smoke billowing up from the harbor are superimposed on the walled city. The photographic effect is as staged as the stabbing of the lady showering in Hitchcock’s movie “Psycho.”
That smoke was from the fuel tanks of two pleasure boats burning in the Old Harbor — outside, of course, the walls. Dubrovnik’s Old City never burned. Bullet holes along Stradun were from gunfire inside the walls, at ground level at close range in a fight on the street between rival Croatian factions. Scaffolding was set up in front of facades in anticipation of the shooting to come. Video tapes of gunfire along the ancient walls, run backward, show clearly that the puffs of gun smoke are from outgoing, not incoming fire. “Western” reporters in Dubrovnik since they cannot read Serbo-Croatian, do not mention the graffiti calling for the lynching of Serbs: Srbe na vrbe (literally “[hang] the Serbs on the willow trees”). My videotapes of Dubrovnik from March 25, 1992, have been aired on Chicago Cable Access TV, Channel 19. Want to see them?
Croatian city? Tito made a gift of it to his native Croatia after WW II. Dubrovnik was never before “Croatian.”
The Byzantine decoration found by restorators beneath paint in the Dominican monastery attests the Serbian and Greek origins of Dubrovnik. This war is the latest chapter in the predation of Orthodox lands by the Western Church. (I’m RC, by the way.) The only building in the Old City of Ragusa to be gutted by explosives and fire was the one housing a priceless collection of medieval manuscripts and icons. It was not navy guns that did the damage, but plastique and incendiary devices planted on the spot by Croatian forces. Enter it on your map, across the street from the Orthodox church, which you fail to note is Serbian. — 3,000 Serb and 7,000 Croat refugees from Dubrovnik have taken refuge — in Belgrade.
J. P. Maher Ph.D. Emeritus Professor, Chicago
You mean like, ummm, .... Baton Rouge or New Orleans or San Diego or Los Angeles or San Antonio or San Francisco?
Let's pass the word on to the Mexicans that its perfectly O.K. to start shelling San Diego since, after all, San Diego was not originally American or built by Americans - the Americans moved in later.
The shelling only minimally damaged Dubrovnik and was aimed at Croat soldiers shooting out at the Yugoslav navy - the commander of which was an ethnic Slovene.
Oh, really?
Each one of these dots represents an artillery round landing in Dubrovnik:
Why are the artillery strikes spread almost evenly throughout the entire town?
Why aren't the artillery strikes concentrated at the shoreline as would be expected in counter-battery fire aimed at batteries firing on naval vessels?
As far as blaming a Slovene, Miodrag Jokic was born on 25 February 1935 in Valjevo (Serbia).
I am not interested in all the excuses, justifications and lies that thugs have used thought History to justify their killings.
There is always an excuse:
"The shelling only minimally damaged Dubrovnik and was aimed at Croat soldiers shooting out at the Yugoslav navy..."
There is always a justification:
"Dubrovnik was not originally Croat or built by Croats - the Croats moved in later."
"The Danzig Corridor was originally part of East Prussia."
There is always a lie:
" ......shooting out at the Yugoslav navy - the commander of which was an ethnic Slovene."
Miodrag Jokic was born on 25 February 1935 in Valjevo (Serbia).
He said "ethnic Slovene", the place of birth doesn't matter. You see, it isn't a lie if the truth is stated but some ignorant sort doesn't understand it.
You owe the original poster an apology for falsely asserting that they had lied.
Yep, you’ve had a deep drink of the anti-Serb and anti-Christian lies.
Serbia the most multicultural nation in the former Yugoslavia, if you didn’t know.
So, it all boils down to:
We have a right to kill Catholics because the IRA killed Protestants.
We have a right to kill Protestants because the Black & Tans killed Catholics.
We have a right to kill non-Mormons at Mountain Meadow because the non-Mormons killed Mormons at Nauvoo.
There way too much glorification of the Serbs just because some of the people the Serbs hated and murdered happened to be Muslims.
I have no dog in the Balkan ethnic battles. The last time that my people fought in the Balkans was during the Battle of Lepanto against the Muslims. I am pointing out that, while the vast majority of Western Europe and America has left religious wars behind, it seems that those from the Balkans, along with the Muslims, are still firmly stuck endlessly fighting the religious wars of past centuries.
Even from the video you see the fairly small shells (you can tell they aren't large and pinpoint where they land) hitting around the edge and some of them go into the water. They don't even make much of a splash.
There are puffs of smoke blowing from the window/openings of the walls which are likely outgoing fire - in any event they don't cause any damage/marring of the walls as you can see. This means they were outgoing or aimed perfectly such that they didn't damage any of the mortar of the walls or the edging even of the opening.
There is a glimpse of armed men atop the wall in the middle/end of the video. They are lined shoulder to shoulder with their eyes just above the wall of the roof peering over and one guy just behind them is halfway standing and moving and you can see his gun. He like the other men are all focused out at the navy - they were sniping at them.
Those visiting Dubrovnik right after the war didn't find it destroyed at all. It had some damage from the opposing forces but wasn't even 1/100th as damaged as Mostar, Fallujah and other places which are given less coverage during the war.
And the places you mention - New Orleans and LA - didn't have anything much historical built when Americans settled the cities.
Dubrovnik was founded by Greek Orthodox and many of its Catholic Churches were original Orthodox - and this is discovered during renovation work in which there has been evidence of former frescos and icons of the Orthodox uncovered.
So what I am saying is that Dubrovnik's famed architecture and infrastructure predated the Croats.
The Balkans wars were started by non-Serb separatists backed by the powerful NATO countries - such U.S., Germany, and Britain - with others, such as Austria, substantially contributing.
Yugoslavia was to be broken up along old faultlines of previous wars and ethnic tensions. Serbs being the largest and most ethnically cohesive population of Yugoslavia and having a couple million living in the set-to-be "independent" new statelets were a problem to be gotten rid of or diminished and occupied.
Polybius, don’t listen to Joan ever on the topic of Croatians. She is a complete and total liar.
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