Fisker Karma
Posted on 04/02/2008 3:35:36 PM PDT by Halfmanhalfamazing
Duke Energy and smart grid company GridPoint said on Thursday that they have found a way for people to charge plug-in hybrid cars in a way that won't bring the power grid to its knees.
"If suddenly you have 20,000 or 30,000 rechargeable cars--with maybe 50,000 in a few years--plugging into the grid at night, utilities have to react to that or you'll have serious problems," Lewis said in an October interview. "You see plug-in hybrids becoming a big issue; it's a tidal wave coming at utilities."
(Excerpt) Read more at news.com ...
In other words, it's kinda free energy. It's not free in the strictest sense, but those power stations are already built, and they aren't being fully utilized at night. This would make it so.
I personally think it's fantastic, and in the short term electrics are the answer. I think that long term it's hydrogen.
I’d buy a plug-in hybrid that had decent get up and go.
Run electric through the city on most of your daily runs.
Gasoline engine kicks in on long hauls and when the battery is drained.
Irvine automaker introduces speedy but costly hybrid
ORDERS ROLLING IN FOR SPORTY KARMA
By Frank Jordans
Associated Press
Article Launched: 03/06/2008 01:33:53 AM PST
GENEVA - A niche car manufacturer from California believes that virtually every automaker will install super-efficient lithium-ion batteries in hybrid vehicles within a decade, but that their slowness opens up a booming market for a range of greener cars.
In an interview with the Associated Press, the head of Fisker Automotive, which is based in Irvine, said his company is well-positioned to pioneer fast but efficient automobiles.
“For me, it's important to create a vehicle that's so sexy you've just got to have it, and later you find out that you can go 80 kilometers (50 miles) without using any gas,” Henrik Fisker said. “That's how far 75 percent of people in Europe drive every day. If all of those people drove plug-in hybrids we would get rid of all our emission problems, and our dependence on foreign oil.”...
Fisker’s battery can be fully recharged in 3 1/2 hours. When the car is parked in the sun, the solar panels provide enough energy to nudge up the battery charge and simultaneously cool the inside cabin....
I want a car like that. It would make parking at Greenbelt worthwhile.
Even if they have to build more plants, by utilizing them 24 hours a day they will lower the total energy costs because the capital expense will be spread over more kilowatts.
There was a story here of a, IIRC, Texas utility that is building battery substations to store the excess nighttime generation for use during the daytime peak hours.
Yes, it will. It will also reduce redundancy in the grid, which means power outages will become more... interesting.
"Aw jeeze... I didn't think about that....."
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I wonder how long the battery will last with A/C running. That windshield is a great solar collector.
The fuel cost for various conventional methods of generating electricity may vary anywhere from 20% (nuke) to 80% (natural gas) of the generation cost. So operating at night isn’t necessarily anywhere near free.
Provided the car is charged each evening, drivers will be able to go up to 50 miles each day on battery power alone - enough to fit the daily commuting needs of more than 60 percent of Americans and Europeans, according to Fisker. Altogether, the Karma will be able to reach 60 miles per hour in less than six seconds and reach a top speed of more than 125 mph. Meanwhile it would be able to travel up to 620 miles per tank of gasoline and achieve about 100 gasoline-equivalent miles per gallon.”
source--http://allworldcars.com/wordpress/?p=3009
and--http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Reviews/Hybrid_Cars_Electric_Cars_Diesels/2010_Fisker_Karma_Preview.S274.A13828.html?DID=RSS
What we'd like to do, eventually, is set up a photovoltaic array into which we can plug the hybrid whenever we pull it into the garage!
Sure, just as soon as we can find those hydrogen mines.
That makes no sense. If that were the case, all cars would have that by now. Can you explain further how that works?
If the grid you’re plugged into is coal fired what is the advantage environmentally?
At 3.55 a gallon, who cares about the environment?
But in this case, I can have my cake and eat it too. Electric motors are more efficient in their use of power than combustion engines are. Most of the energy created during combustion is thrown away via heat.
Look, solar power, wind power, and the use of coal to produce hydrogen are all promising approaches to solving the problem. None of them work alone, but together they can make a difference.
As for the disposal problem with used batteries, that’s not a problem, that’s an opportunity to recover the metals and rebuild.
see post #14.
Are you including the cost of generating that electricity and the lost heat involved in that? What is the cost per mile for the electricity used in an electric or hybrid car?
We'll see...
This is the only source I’ve currently got access to, so if you have another be my guest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car#Cost
==============A car powered by an internal combustion engine at 20% efficiency, getting 30 mpg, will require 0.24 Kw·h per mile. At a cost of $3.50 per gallon this is $0.12 per mile. A battery electric version of that same car with a charge/discharge efficiency of 81%, and charged at a cost of $0.10 for kW·h would cost $0.03 per mile, or would be paying the equivalent of $0.88 per gallon.==========
It amazes me how simple and “easy” you make it all sound.
That extra energy has to come from some where. It takes much ,much more electricity to move a vehicle of that size and weight than does a gallon of gasoline.
The deficit will have to be made up on the power grid. We are not talking tens of thousands of cars here, we are talking about millions coming down the chute. There will be a mad scramble for all those city rats to get their Earth-saving share of the pie.
For that, the electrical grid will have to be doubled but there simply is not the infrastructure to support it. Power plants do not run off of thin air either. America does not have enough high volume rivers for water power in highly populated areas, wind power is a joke, and the wacko’s will not tolerate nuclear wind or water plants being newly constructed. They will keep blocking any and all power plant construction, believing that we can and must get by on what is already in place.
This is truly a dilemma coming very soon. Our 40 year old systems and older transfer systems and wiring will not handle the load.
Reality.....what a concept.
Thank you. I don’t have any alternative information I was just looking for some kind of answer. That looks very good on its face. If that holds up in practice then it might be a very good thing.
Final cost per mile to the consumer is another ball of wax.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^That extra energy has to come from some where.^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, it does. At night, when power stations across america are not running at 100%...........
Now they would run at 100%. There’s some of your extra.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^It takes much ,much more electricity to move a vehicle of that size and weight than does a gallon of gasoline.^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That’s why a lot of plug in hybrids will have a separate on board gasoline/diesel/hydrogen/etc powered generator in them.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^For that, the electrical grid will have to be doubled but there simply is not the infrastructure to support it.^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don’t know about doubled, but I agree it would need to be beefed up.
Yeah, well, it’s a good place to start. But if you get a chance, I’d say you should do a little bit of research on your own.
The answer is as always, to increase power production. But I think that with all of the proposed steps, this makes the most sense.
Most of the energy created to generate electricity is thrown away as heat too.
That's what I tried to tell him. There is energy loss when you generate the electricity and then there's energy loss when you use the electricity. Not to mention the extra heat my 327 generates is not all wasted. It keeps me roasty toasty warm in sub-zero weather and keeps my windows clear with no loss of power and no added reduction of fuel for travel. How do you heat the passenger cabin and defrost/deice the windows in an electric car? Electricity is one of the most inefficient space heating mediums and it will come directly out of the storage capacity diminishing potential distance traveled on a charge.
Now he wants energy grids running 100% 24/7/365. No downtime for maintenance?
“I think that long term it’s hydrogen. “
Where do you get the hydrogen?
Especially if electric utilities go nuclear, costs could go way down. (Except of course, for exhorbitant fees for lawyers and lobbyists)
Of course. Nothing is 100% efficient. However, ICE engines are much less efficient than big power plants AFAIK, and are definately less efficient than electric engines are.
Look, my primary choice is to drill. Drill drill drill. If there’s oil here, let’s drill here. If there’s oil there, let’s drill there.
But of the *current* options, plug in electrics are the most realistic. Hydrogen has the most promise, but who knows when. Ethanol is a boondoggle.
-—————Not to mention the extra heat my 327 generates is not all wasted.-—————
You forget that there will still be a small gas/diesel powered engine on board for electric generation. That would still be useful for your car’s heater.
————How do you heat the passenger cabin and defrost/deice the windows in an electric car?—————
The onboard generator.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt
===========With use of a small internal combustion engine hooked to a generator to resupply the batteries, the vehicle’s range is potentially increased to 640 miles===========
This is the first one I’ve seen that has potential, IMHO.
I’ve seen MPG for this rated anywhere from 50 to 150. A standard car can’t touch that. Even a prius, except on the best of days.
—————Where do you get the hydrogen?—————
Any number of places.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production
I don't think so. A coal fired plant on a BTU basis is approx 30% efficient. Nuclear is even less efficient. As far as conventional generation processes, the best you can do is in a modern gas fired combined cycle unit that can get you around 45% BTU efficiency but only when it is operating at or near full power. At lower output levels, it's efficiency drops.
Electricity used in a motor is generated by one of those methods, transmitted via the grid with 3-7% line losses, then stored in a battery with at best 80% efficiency (that's what these latest technologies claim, but I wouldn't bet on it) before it even gets to the motor. Electric motors generate heat and have to overcome friction too.
In the end, I'd bet the IC engine works out to be just as efficient on a BTU basis as an electric vehicle.
The reason we have been using the IC for over 100 years now is because they work pretty damn well.
more nukes, start now
———————A coal fired plant on a BTU basis is approx 30% efficient.—————————
I don’t remember the number, but gasoline engines are even less efficient than that. Newer diesels that have all the new technology in them are probably higher though.
-————In the end, I’d bet the IC engine works out to be just as efficient on a BTU basis as an electric vehicle.——————
It’s not. If it were, we wouldn’t have hybrids. An electric motor helps power the under-sized ICE to increase efficiency.
Internal combustion engine based cars were first introduced at the turn of the 20th century, mass produced around the 20’s..... So if we were to take a guess at what generation they are............ You think that combustion engine-based vehicles are in their 20th generation? 50th?
Cars like the volt, or tesla roadster, and etc are largely first, second, or third generation vehicles. And they get better MPG than pretty much any other vehicle you want to put them up against. I know that’s an extremely highly anecdotal comparison, but it’s an accurate observation.
Just so that it’s clear, I don’t consider a volt to be a ‘hybrid’. There’s nothing hybrid about it. It’s a car that’s fully powered by an electric engine, with an onboard generator to create additional electricity if/when needed. The generator does nothing more AFAIK.
Yep.
More nukes. More drilling. More shale oil. More coal to oil. And even more solar, more wind, more geothermal, more hydro(water)based powering.
Pedal to the metal with all of it.
If gasoline were still $1 a galon, we wouldn't have hybrids.
You're confusing cost with efficiency.
^^^^^^^^^^If gasoline were still $1 a galon, we wouldn’t have hybrids.^^^^^^^^^^
Agreed. Back then, nobody gave a care about efficiency. But that doesn’t change what technology is more efficient.
^^^^^^^^^^^You’re confusing cost with efficiency.^^^^^^^^^
No I’m not. I’m simply looking at what we’re turning to in order to increase efficiency.
There’s a difference.
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