"Fool me once Shame on you. Fool me twice Shame on me."
Posted on 02/20/2008 1:55:25 PM PST by SmithL
Yellow Springs, Ohio (AP) -- Republican presidential candidate John McCain said President Bush should veto a measure that would bar the CIA from using waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods on terror suspects.
McCain voted against the bill, which would restrict the CIA to using only the 19 interrogation techniques listed in the Army field manual.
His vote was controversial because the manual prohibits waterboarding — a simulated drowning technique that McCain also opposes — yet McCain doesn't want the CIA bound by the manual and its prohibitions.
McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, is well-known for his opposition to waterboarding, which puts him at odds with the Bush administration.
"I knew I would be criticized for it," McCain told reporters Wednesday in Ohio. "I think I can show my record is clear. I said there should be additional techniques allowed to other agencies of government as long as they were not" torture.
"I was on the record as saying that they could use additional techniques as long as they were not cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment," McCain said. "So the vote was in keeping with my clear record of saying that they could have additional techniques, but those techniques could not violate" international rules against torture.
(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...
‘I was against it before I was for it’. Maybe McCain should be waterboarded to find out what he really thinks.
Interesting.
McCain voted right on this. And his distinction is correct.
We should take this as a step to the right?
Part of McCain’s 10-step recovery program from advanced RINOism? Reachout to conservatives?
“Maybe McCain should be waterboarded to find out what he really thinks.”
I think he has more personal understanding of this topic than any of the other 99 Senators.
There’s a lot more in this bill than waterboarding. McCain’s objection is to the limitation of only 19 types of interrogation being allowed.
He should be fitted for a bigger pair of flip flops than Kerry wares.
“They call him Flipper, Flipper....”
The A.D.D public won;t have any time for Mccain’s nuance when they’ve got HOPE around the corner.
say goodnight.
I wish GW could veto McCain.
Well at least McCain was right on this.
We should take this as McCain voting with a blindfold.
First he was against it, then he’s for it. I don’t think he’ll ever be able to make up his mind.
He sunk himself with his "maverick and independent" stance.
The specifics of CIA interrogations techniques should not be the subject of public conversations among public officials, it should not be covered in any public law, the fact that such interrogations might take place at all should not be discussed in public, period.
McCain helped to make this a political issue. Once you’ve let the horse out of the barn the best you can do is shut up. There is no horse. There is no barn. We don’t use technique “x” in our interrogations because the agency in question is a “secret” agency. Whatever it does is classified, and that theoretically means “secret”.
The last thing anyone needs is to have morons prattling on in public about intel tools and methods.
Comparing something that physically limits you to something that may last half an hour is like comparing an apple to a moose.
Yellows Springs?!?!? That’s the Berkely of Ohio and home of Antioch College. I hope he made it to Young’s Dairy for some great ice cream.
Does the United States torture indiscriminately? Do we do it just for fun and the amusement of the guards? Are the methods we use even torture? Consider Zumwalt's argument. No, John, it is NOT the same as what happened to you in Vietnam or what happened for 444 days in Iran. If you cannot see the difference then you are either understandably unobjective, should recognize that, and recuse yourself, or you are unfit to be Commander in Chief, responsible for the defense of this Nation.
Whoa! I did not detect the flip-flop. I guess McCain followed my advice in advance! Way to go, John.
>>Yellow Springs, Ohio (AP) — Republican presidential candidate John McCain said President Bush should veto a measure that would bar the CIA from using waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods on terror suspects.<<
WTF? Surely even people who disagree with McCain about having torture be legal have to notice this is a flip flop.
Heck, being handcuffed and put in the back of a patrol car is degrading. Shall we prohibit that horrible treatment?
Totally agree. How the heck did photos from inside a military prison get out into public view ? Try taking a camera in a US state prison...
John needs to recuse himself from office and the upcoming election. There fixed it.
Really? How's that?
Look, even Mike Huckleberry should be able to understand this one: McCain opposes water boarding, but he does not believe the CIA should be limited to the Army Interrogation Manual of approved methods since that would eliminate other methods that are currently permitted under the Geneva Conventions.
There’s nothing contradictory about his take on this. He’s against “torture” but doesn’t think that there are only 19 methods that should be available to interrogators. They should use whatever they can that works, short of “torture”.
Me, I’d put torture on the table too. But that’s just me.
His vote on this, and his advice to GWB, is right.
He needs to cut out the references to his "record." This is the long time, inside DCer in him talking. What he needs to do is simply say here is what I think about this issue and here is why I think that. The "my record" stuff is tedious and pointless, especially for people taking a look at him for the first time.
>>Look, even Mike Huckleberry should be able to understand this one: McCain opposes water boarding, but he does not believe the CIA should be limited to the Army Interrogation Manual of approved methods since that would eliminate other methods that are currently permitted under the Geneva Conventions.<<
Maybe I am misremembering but I remember McCain trying to add riders to bills that did extend the Army Interrogation rules.
Maybe you missed the NEXT SENTENCE: "McCain voted against the bill, which would restrict the CIA to using only the 19 interrogation techniques listed in the Army field manual."
He flipped, he flopped, he was against it before he was against it. He voted AGAINST THE BILL; he says Bush should VETO THE BILL. Where is the flip? Where is the flop? I dislike McCain for a lot of reasons, but the derangement syndrome on display here is surreal.
He’s been there, done that ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanoi_Hilton
“The Hanoi Hilton was merely one site used by the North Vietnamese Army to torture and interrogate captured servicemen, mostly American pilots shot down during bombing raids.[citation needed] ...
When prisoners of war began to be released from this and other North Vietnamese prisons in the late 1960s and early 1970s, their testimonies revealed widespread and systematic abuse of prisoners of war. Initially this information was suppressed by American authorities for fear that conditions might worsen for the those remaining in North Vietnamese custody.”
http://www.vietnamwar.com/hanoihilton.htm
“From 1961 to 1973, the North Vietnamese and Vietcong held hundreds of Americans captive. In North Vietnam alone, more than a dozen prisons were scattered in and around the capital city of Hanoi. American POWs gave them nicknames: Alcatraz, Briarpatch, Dirty Bird, the Hanoi Hilton , the Zoo. Conditions were appalling; food was watery soup and bread. Prisoners were variously isolated, starved, beaten, torturedfor countless hoursand paraded in anti-American propaganda. “It’s easy to die but hard to live,” a prison guard told one new arrival, “and we’ll show you just how hard it is to live.”
American prisoners were held at the Hoa Lo prison, nicknamed the Hanoi Hilton from 11 August 1964 to 28 March 1973. The French built this prison near the turn of the century, with construction completed in 1901.”
What was he for and what was he against and how does it relate to this bill? He opposes waterboarding on principle but he has opposed this bill from the start for reasons that are discussed pretty plainly and clearly in the article. He voted AGAINST the bill and he now says Bush should VETO the bill.
Again, perhaps i am misremembering but I remember McCain trying to add riders to bill design to make torture illegal using the army rules as guidelines. Now we have a bill that does that and he voted against it and now wants it vetoed.
That sure does sound like a flip flop on torture.
He should stand by the troops unless he also wants to change the Army manual.
Use your head.
When you say he’s “been there, done that,” do you mean that his captors in Hanoi waterboarded him to obtain information from him about an imminent terrorist plot but otherwise did him no other harm and generally fed three fine meals a day, give top-flight medical care and an opportunity to worship in the manner of his choosing?
Of course not. Hell no.
When you compare Gitmo to the Hanoi Hilton, you sink to the level of Little Dick Durbin. Wise the hell up.
It’s soft-headed notions like yours that make me wonder what the hell happened to conservative THOUGHT in this country.
Huh? Stand by the troops? We’re talking about a bill to restrict the CIA in their interrogation techniques. What do you mean?
I read comments like that, and I think maybe McCain and a great many others need to remember these people are prisoners not guest.
I am glad he voted against the bill today, he's also right that presidents should veto bills instead of issueing 'finding statemements" after the fact.
Apparently you are misremembering. McCain opposes torture, but he has opposed limiting the CIA in its interrogation techniques to the specific methods outlined in the US Army rules. Applying the US army rules to the CIA amounts to giving the enemy our playbook. Al Qaeda would appreciate that even more than Bill Belichek would appreciate being given the playbook of his Super Bowl opponent (then he wouldn’t have to surreptitiously videotape their practice sessions and sideline signals).
You're comparing this to how our forces treat Gitmo detainees?
If I had the power, I'd ban your ass just for such stupidity.
You want to call the Mods down on me for these two posts, do it.
The Army doesn’t approve of waterboarding probably because they want to protect our troops from it. I doubt they could be called liberals for that position.
>>Apparently you are misremembering. McCain opposes torture, but he has opposed limiting the CIA in its interrogation techniques to the specific methods outlined in the US Army rules.<<
Gotcha. It wouldn’t be the first time I not remembered a news story accurately. I’ll read up. Thanks.
McCain is right on this, and it does not contradict his prior position.
He is against waterboarding. But this bill is trying to limit the CIA to only Army approved methods, which are
a)well-known by enemies, and
b)do not include other interogation methods that McCain does not view as torture. He got this one right.
I disagree with him that waterboarding is torture, but he is not being inconsistent here.
(I guess I am coming to the realization that I may have to support this guy.)
Also, torture jokes are usually funny, except when they are about someone who really was tortured.
I understand that argument in theory, though the reality of decades of brutal enemy treatment of our POW’s doesn’t suggest that it matters much.
You know I suppose that we waterboard ~our own~ troops in some training schools, like SERE.
I think this focus on waterboarding is just a distraction. There are many, many techniques available. It’s just one.
You might want to rephrase that, don’tcha think?
Waterboarding is too tame to be effective. They ought to put him on the rack and torque it till he screams bloody murder.
So McCain likes the John Kerry playbook - flip flop if you think your former position is unpopular....
A step in the right direction. Defense is McCain’s strong point. This makes him even stronger.
Next he has to recant on waterboarding. If it lasts for minutes and leaves no permanent effect it isn’t torture. And does he really think that what we do or don’t do will have any effect on Muslim captors.
Would you be happier if he adhered to a prior wrong position?
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
"Fool me once Shame on you. Fool me twice Shame on me."
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