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What Happened to Immigration?
National Review Online ^ | February 07, 2008 | Mark Krikorian

Posted on 02/07/2008 9:39:32 AM PST by Delacon

Now that Amnesty John appears to have the Republican nomination sewn up, the pro-McCain commentariat is seeking to rewrite the lessons of last summer’s epic battle over immigration in the Senate. That unprecedented outpouring of popular outrage, which stopped cold the combined force of all of America’s elite institutions, clearly demonstrated the arrival of immigration as a potent political issue.

With the recent primary victories of Ted Kennedy’s amnesty co-conspirator, supporters of the McCain approach are crowing that last summer’s humiliating defeat was just a flash in the pan, driven by noisy troublemakers who can now safely be ignored. Jennifer Rubin at Contentions claims that immigration “has had a perfect record of irrelevance,” while Richelieu at the Weekly Standard smirks that “hanging out with the anti-immigrant Bund seems to be a kiss of death.”

Even our own David Frum, an immigration critic himself, is afraid that “A McCain win will be interpreted as a repudiation of the case for immigration restriction — if the Senate’s most outspoken exponent of open borders can survive a Republican presidential primary, then almost no position on immigration is untenable in Republican debate.

Obviously, McCain’s successes are being interpreted in this way, but is that reading of the situation defensible? I would argue that it is not.

Immigration is certainly not “the most important issue in the history of the planet,” as John Podhoretz wrote sarcastically last month. In selecting a candidate, voters consider a variety of factors, including (but certainly not limited to) political positions. Moreover, even when political positions prominently figure into a decisions made by voters, the importance of certain issues relative to the other issues in play varies from voter to voter.

Historically, immigration has not typically been an issue of prominence. Over the past few years, however, that has begun to change; this constitutes a sign of the increasing political saliency of immigration. A sign of that saliency is precisely the tailspin that McCain’s campaign went into after the amnesty debacle-money dried up, his staff hemorrhaged, and his reporter friends started writing him off. McCain’s subsequent comeback is a testament to many things, but the very fact that such a comeback was even necessary demonstrates the potency of the issue.

Moreover, McCain’s move to the right on immigration (at least rhetorically) since the failure of his amnesty bill provides further evidence of the sustained significance of immigration, a move that is manifested by his pledge to secure the borders “first” (though the corollary is that he would then have an amnesty, something people often don’t hear). As John O’Sullivan notes, “one of the endearing things about McCain is his inability to pander in a convincing way,” so many people don’t believe his claims to have “seen the light” on immigration. On the other hand, many do. For instance, the California exit polls showed that 29 percent of those who favored mass deportation of illegals as the solution to illegal immigration voted for McCain. (Deportation supporters made up a plurality — 38 percent — of California Republican primary voters.) With most people completely unaware of McCain’s deeply held ideological multiculturalism, it’s no surprise that voters tuning into the race only a few days before the contest could be taken in by McCain’s pretense.

The rest of the Republican field further bolsters the claim that the immigration issue resonates with voters. Initially, Reps. Tom Tancredo and Duncan Hunter seemed the only hawkish candidates on immigration; however, the rest of the candidates quickly followed suit. Romney, after seeming open to amnesty in 2005, came out against it and repeatedly attacked Giuliani for presiding over a sanctuary city while mayor of New York. Giuliani saw that he needed to sound tough, so he came out against the Senate amnesty bill last summer and told audiences, “I could end illegal immigration in three years.” Mike Huckabee’s comments as Arkansas governor in support of illegal immigrants led many to think that he would clone McCain on the issue — but instead he modeled his immigration platform on an article I’d written for National Review. Fred Thompson explicitly promoted “attrition through enforcement” and, along with Huckabee, actually proposed significant reductions in legal immigration, marking the first time in generations that such has happened in a presidential campaign.

Without immigration as a key issue, Romney would have been an asterisk in California. As Steve Sailer has pointed out, illegal immigration was the most important issue for 29 percent of the state’s Republican primary voters (second only to the economy at 33 percent) and Romney clobbered McCain 45-25. (The Hispanic vote in California, meanwhile, was very divided, with McCain underperforming at only 35 percent, compared to his statewide total of 42 percent.)

Immigration has certainly not been a “magic bullet” for any of the candidates. Opposition to amnesty couldn’t compensate, for instance, for Romney’s apparent phoniness, or for Thompson’s seeming lack of enthusiasm for campaigning. On the other hand, Huckabee’s adoption of a clear, detailed immigration-control platform has certainly helped compensate for his earlier pro-illegal immigrant comments.

There is little substantive disagreement on the Democratic side, but even there, Hillary Clinton quickly backed away from her support of driver’s licenses for illegal immigrants. Additionally, during the Hollywood debate with Obama, Clinton (briefly) acknowledged the economic effects of immigration on black Americans (and nonetheless captured more than two-thirds of the Hispanic primary vote). In addition, former Clinton White House operative Rep. Rahm Emanuel, who orchestrated the Democratic takeover of the House in 2006, is telling his candidates to inoculate themselves by moving right on immigration.

All this means that the reports of the immigration issue’s demise are greatly exaggerated. The Senate’s most outspoken exponent of open borders has indeed survived a Republican presidential primary. But McCain’s immigration position will contribute to his defeat in November for two reasons: first, many conservative, pro-sovereignty voters will simply stay home; and second, since his immigration views are the same as both his potential opponents, he will be denied an important line of attack against them in the general election campaign.

I’ll give Emanuel the last word:

“For the American people, and therefore, all of us, it’s emerged as the third rail of American politics. And anyone who doesn’t realize that isn’t with the American people.”

Mark Krikorian is executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies and an NRO contributor.



TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: aliens; amnesty; immigrantlist; immigration; issues; krikorian; mccain
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I resolved to fight amnesty now more than ever.
1 posted on 02/07/2008 9:39:37 AM PST by Delacon
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To: Delacon
Lousi XIV: "Apres moi, le deluge." Two generations, the French revolution was the flood that carried away the french monarchy.

Our levee just broke. Our flood is coming.

2 posted on 02/07/2008 9:43:10 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: Delacon
Yeah, they all kept it pretty low key so as to avoid upsetting the Hispanic voters. One exception was Romney who continuously included it in his very long list of Bi-partisan Washington failures.

I predict more of the same in the General.

3 posted on 02/07/2008 9:43:47 AM PST by TCats
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To: Delacon

Remember the sayin “Lock and load”? Remember that one.


4 posted on 02/07/2008 9:44:10 AM PST by RC2
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To: Delacon

the local network news last night showed polls handing out provisional ballots to illegal aliens. They even gave an interview to a mexican woman who could not speak english


5 posted on 02/07/2008 9:44:25 AM PST by KTM rider ( SCOTUS '08 it's more than the oval office this time)
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To: Delacon
The establishment doesn't care what we think. A majority of R's, D's and I's agree but they aren't listening. THEY have the power with their media to make this a non-issue. Its a non-issue in this campaign.

This could be it for this country. It could alreday be over for us.

6 posted on 02/07/2008 9:45:20 AM PST by GeronL (when someone tells you they have a Fair (fill in the blank) Plan, you need to run away holding your)
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To: Delacon
Is Shamnesty McCain bringing his "Hispanic Outreach Director" to CPAC?

Hernandez is a certifiable traitor. He was born in Dallas, but became a dual Mexican citizen. His last job was as Vicente Fox's reconquista chief. The "New Pioneers" of his book are the illegal alien invaders/settlers he and McCain love so much.

Only a traitor would hire a traitor to promote the invasion of his nation.

I wonder if he'll show at CPAC.


7 posted on 02/07/2008 9:45:25 AM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Delacon

The Council wants their Community in place by 2010. There will be no border enforcement, and there will be amnesty and worse, and you’ll all like it, so calm down.


8 posted on 02/07/2008 9:47:16 AM PST by the gillman@blacklagoon.com (And close the damned borders!)
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To: Delacon

It’s going to have to go grass roots again.

Man that really sucks!

I love the fact that my government is using my money to repopulate the country with a more pliable citizenry.


9 posted on 02/07/2008 9:48:18 AM PST by ScratInTheHat
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To: All

Please see my post concerning this very subject: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1966125/posts


10 posted on 02/07/2008 9:54:23 AM PST by backtothestreets (My bologna has a first name, it's J-O-R-G-E)
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To: Travis McGee
Should be titled "The New MEXICAN Pioneers" They aren't interested in being Americans.


11 posted on 02/07/2008 9:56:41 AM PST by texas_mrs (Republicans, change your icon. Elephants never forget, but you've forgotten Conservative principles.)
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To: 1_Inch_Group; 2sheep; 2Trievers; 3AngelaD; 3pools; 3rdcanyon; 4Freedom; 4ourprogeny; 7.62 x 51mm; ..

ping


12 posted on 02/07/2008 9:57:37 AM PST by gubamyster
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To: Delacon
Even our own David Frum, an immigration critic himself, is afraid that “A McCain win will be interpreted as a repudiation of the case for immigration restriction — if the Senate’s most outspoken exponent of open borders can survive a Republican presidential primary, then almost no position on immigration is untenable in Republican debate.

Whether it's McCain or Obama or Hillary, the conservatives will take a hit this time around.

With that in mind, the only true course for conservatives and republicans in general is to block or send into gridlock any legislation or initiatives that are contrary to the positions of conservatives. Thus, when immigration is brought by McCain or the congress, it is the people and especially the republicans that have to stand up and block any and all steps towards granting amnesty to illegals. And the same goes for any other positions on issues that are contrary to conservative views. Higher taxes, abortion, liberal judges, pulling out of Iraq, weakening our national defense, government take over of our health care system, or any others where the positions are contrary to conservative positions, should be blocked until the next general election cycle when we can hope for a better representative for republicanism.

Though McCain or Hillary or Obama may become our next president, we can try as hell to make their 4 years very uneventfull and worthless.
13 posted on 02/07/2008 9:59:50 AM PST by adorno
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To: ScratInTheHat

Then you’ll be overjoyed when John Cornyn pushes through his CFR approved North American Investment Fund so you can pay to build schools and roads in Mexico and pay for the college education of every Mexican child.

And of course healthcare for all of them too.


14 posted on 02/07/2008 10:00:00 AM PST by the gillman@blacklagoon.com (And close the damned borders!)
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To: Delacon

Several reasons have contributed to this:

1. Every Republican candidate eventually adopted some tough talk on immigration, including McCain. Who’s lying?

2. Debate moderators, either due to incompetence or deliberately, never pinned candidates down on key questions: do they support a physical fence, or any path to citizenship regardless of what it’s called. And they continued to allow McCain and others to spout the nonsense about “we aren’t going to round up 12 million people,” rather then forcing them to agree or disagree with enforcing the laws and allowing the gradual self-deportation. Pathetic debate moderation on the subject. Recall how one pinning down damaged Hillary.

3. Many voters never followed the immigration debate, and probably didn’t know where each candidate stood.

4. Many voters just vote Republican or Democrat, then pick their candidate based on general impressions: personality and looks, woman, war hero, businessman, etc.

5. Many one issue voters, issues of long standing: abortion, national defense, tax policy, etc. Even though up to 70% and more oppose open borders, still only around 20% (?) make immigration a vote deciding issue. Many voters chose Huckabee or McCain based on social issues or defense/Iraq, putting those ahead of immigration, despite the open borders tendencies of both.

If McCain should win the presidency, I think there will be some shocked and enraged voters once the issue comes up again. He knows how to lead, and he knows whats best for America, so he says.


15 posted on 02/07/2008 10:01:07 AM PST by Will88 ( The Worst Case Scenario: McCain with a Dhimm majority in the House and Senate)
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To: Delacon
What Happened to Immigration?

What happened?

It should be clear to all that the Federal fix is in and backed by the Bush drive for open borders, and destruction of our sovereignty.

Of all the possible candidates, and all the chaos and violence associated with this invasion, the Republicans have chosen an open border, pro-illegal alien candidate.

The fix is in.

16 posted on 02/07/2008 10:04:18 AM PST by dragnet2
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To: texas_mrs

Mark my words: the vocabulary our children are learning is being reshaped to count everybody in the hemisphere as an “American.”


17 posted on 02/07/2008 10:04:20 AM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Delacon

I have yet to meet one McCain supporter. How in the he$$ is he winning the nomination? It just makes no sense to me...


18 posted on 02/07/2008 10:11:05 AM PST by the_devils_advocate_666
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To: Delacon
...Richelieu at the Weekly Standard smirks that “hanging out with the anti-immigrant Bund seems to be a kiss of death.”

Seems to be a reference to the German-American Bund.

Recall Godwin's Law.

19 posted on 02/07/2008 10:11:59 AM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Travis McGee

What’s up with the Burger King meets Anton Levey beard on Sr. Hernandez? Is he an illegal alien loving satanist who eats Whoppers?


20 posted on 02/07/2008 10:14:17 AM PST by Clemenza (Ronald Reagan was a "Free Traitor", Like Me ;-))
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To: Travis McGee; texas_mrs
They're not the "New American Pioneers" ... they're the "New Conquistadores".


21 posted on 02/07/2008 10:15:22 AM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Delacon

The DC establishment has found their way to shove amnesty and open borders down our throats.

Today the battle is over. We will not win any more fights in congress on this.

This is a big reason McPain will not get a vote from me.

He is a true traitor.


22 posted on 02/07/2008 10:18:19 AM PST by indylindy (Don't even ask me to vote for McCain, Rudy, or Huckster.)
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To: Travis McGee
One of three people, Clinton, McCain, or Obama will be our next president. Each is fundamntally disloyal to Americans and anxious to bring explosive growth in third-world population transfers into our homeland.

Your children may read about America in books. They will not live in it.

23 posted on 02/07/2008 10:19:45 AM PST by Dagnabitt (Hate the USA? Love the whole Amerexico idea? Elect McCain-Clinton-Obama!)
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To: Delacon

Illegal immigration was a wedge issue that would have worked in the Republicans’ favor. Now, they’ve abandoned the issue.

I still agree with the vast majority of Americans who oppose amnesty for illegals.


24 posted on 02/07/2008 10:19:48 AM PST by popdonnelly (Get Reid. Salazar, and Harkin out of the Senate.)
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To: Delacon

I think it’s time for ALL of us to face some FACTS...

This is a CONSERVATIVE website.
That means we support CONSERVATIVE ideas and agendas.

But we should also realize that many of those ideas are no longer MAINSTREAM...

Immigration simply isn’t a MAINSTREAM issue, because the Major Media has decided it isn’t. It’s as simple as that.

It’s ONLY an MSM issue when some innocent child is going to taken out of school and deported because the illegal dad committed a crime.

Illegal Immigrants may be washing your car, cutting your grass, or serving you at McDonalds, but at least they don’t have pink hair and piercings while doing so.

They don’t live in your caldesac, they live “Down There” in the inner-city, out of sight.

At some point, we must realize that the war of ideas is a PROPOGANDA WAR, And we LOST...

So now we have a campaign without ONE SINGLE ANTI-IMMIGRANT CANDIDATE.

Why?

Because of our own bomb-throwers...

Flame away folks. I’ve got thick skin...


25 posted on 02/07/2008 10:23:00 AM PST by tcrlaf (VOTE DEMOCRAT-You'll look great in a Burka!)
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To: Will88

“Debate moderators, either due to incompetence or deliberately, never pinned candidates down”

Many of our debates were spent focusing on DEMOCRAT ISSUES, not on Republican ones.

At some point, we have to decide that maybe ANN COULTER would make a better REPUBLICAN Debate moderator than say, CHRIS MATTHEWS?


26 posted on 02/07/2008 10:25:00 AM PST by tcrlaf (VOTE DEMOCRAT-You'll look great in a Burka!)
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To: Delacon

“What Happened to Immigration?”

The same thing that happened to this election, it was decided before anyone voted.

You won’t hear any debate about immigration in the near future.


27 posted on 02/07/2008 10:27:34 AM PST by AuntB (" DON'T LET THE PRESS PICK YOUR CANDIDATE!" Mrs. Duncan Hunter 1/5/08)
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To: tcrlaf

“So now we have a campaign without ONE SINGLE ANTI-IMMIGRANT CANDIDATE.”

McCain told enough lies to avoid spooking voters on the immigration issue. He promised to build the G—damed fence and enforce the law, but he’s not going to deport that illegal alien mother of the MIA in Iraq. You know, that one such case out of 20 million or more illegals. This was how the TV debates went on this issue.

The presence of the RINOs McCain and Giuliani in the race scattered the voters, some joining Huck due to abortion, others joining Romney on many conservative issues, and McCain getting the RINOS and national defense voters.

A huge problem in the primaries is that there are no runoffs in winner-take-all states, so McCain gets 100% of delegates for 40% of the vote. McCain is roughly a 35% candidate overall.


28 posted on 02/07/2008 10:36:01 AM PST by Will88 ( The Worst Case Scenario: McCain with a Dhimm majority in the House and Senate)
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To: tcrlaf

“So now we have a campaign without ONE SINGLE ANTI-IMMIGRANT CANDIDATE.”

McCain told enough lies to avoid spooking voters on the immigration issue. He promised to build the G—damed fence and enforce the law, but he’s not going to deport that illegal alien mother of the MIA in Iraq. You know, that one such case out of 20 million or more illegals. This was how the TV debates went on this issue.

The presence of the RINOs McCain and Giuliani in the race scattered the voters, some joining Huck due to abortion, others joining Romney on many conservative issues, and McCain getting the RINOS and national defense voters.

A huge problem in the primaries is that there are no runoffs in winner-take-all states, so McCain gets 100% of delegates for 40% of the vote. McCain is roughly a 35% candidate overall.


29 posted on 02/07/2008 10:36:20 AM PST by Will88 ( The Worst Case Scenario: McCain with a Dhimm majority in the House and Senate)
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To: tcrlaf
The fat lady may be singing but she hasn’t reached the coda just yet.
30 posted on 02/07/2008 10:36:47 AM PST by ItsForTheChildren
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To: RC2
Remember the sayin “Lock and load”? Remember that one.

     Ditto's!
 bring It On!

31 posted on 02/07/2008 10:39:56 AM PST by Ron H. (A Vote For Juan McCain Will Be A Vote For unAbashed Tyranny.)
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To: Delacon

We seriously need a third party candidate.


32 posted on 02/07/2008 10:47:30 AM PST by Texas Federalist (Fred Thompson 08)
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To: Delacon

I’m sure they’re all flooding in, now that amnesty is on the horizon.


33 posted on 02/07/2008 10:48:42 AM PST by Sig Sauer P220
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To: Dagnabitt

That’s sadly true. Not the America we knew.


34 posted on 02/07/2008 11:08:41 AM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Delacon

After Nov. the Pubs in Congress will number so few, that any fight for real immigration reform will be dead. I will fight too but after the election, when Obama sweeps the nation, no one will be talking about immigration reform except that nativists in the GOP must be expunged. McCain, if by a miracle he wins, might listen, or he might not.


35 posted on 02/07/2008 11:10:43 AM PST by phillyfanatic ( tH)
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To: Delacon
"What Happened to Immigration?"

John McCain and the Hensley Beer Corp will crush anything related to preventing illegal immigration. They're marketing a new beer recipe, the Hensley beer Chelada which targets latinos anticipating huge profits.

check out the Hensley McCain invasion

An illegal INVASION is what it is Senator McCain. You sir are a disgrace.

36 posted on 02/07/2008 11:17:36 AM PST by takenoprisoner
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To: Delacon
You will be ignored. Your opposition is illusory. This type of arrogance and detachment may someday drive the people to extra political actions. Without redress of grievances there will be conflagration.
37 posted on 02/07/2008 11:21:34 AM PST by isrul
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To: Delacon
It's not over. The American people are outraged from having their citizenship held cheap in Washington and that's true in both parties.

We don't have to "wait" for Washington to fix it.

The remedies that the American people want have already been researched, surveyed, and codified into a platform --"What Americans Want on Immigration".

We can electronically innundate our elected officials with this platform and insist that they adopt it.

It's here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1964492/posts

38 posted on 02/07/2008 11:39:45 AM PST by GVnana
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To: tcrlaf
Immigration simply isn’t a MAINSTREAM issue, because the Major Media has decided it isn’t. It’s as simple as that.

 
Your statement is just flat out wrong .  This is from December and the numbers have certainly changed but a full 81 percent of the country felt that illegal immigration is one of the most important or an important problem facing the the country.
 

Compared to other problems facing the country, how big a problem is illegal immigration? Would you say it is one of the most important problems facing the country, or is it an important problem but not one of the most important, or is it not all that important, or is it not important at all?"

.

One of Most
Important
Important Not All That
Important
Not Important
At All
Unsure
% % % % %

11/30 - 12/3/07

27 54 11 6 2
 
http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm

39 posted on 02/07/2008 11:47:43 AM PST by Delacon (Don't Immanentize the Eschaton.)
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To: Delacon

They may “feel” it, but they certainly aren’t VOTING it....

And if this election should teach you anything, it’s that opinion polling is UNRELIABLE...


40 posted on 02/07/2008 11:55:09 AM PST by tcrlaf (VOTE DEMOCRAT-You'll look great in a Burka!)
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To: tcrlaf

“They may “feel” it, but they certainly aren’t VOTING it....
And if this election should teach you anything

No, this election teaches us that immigration isn’t the only issue. It also teaches us that the staunch anti-illegal immigration candidates didn’t run good campaigns. I haven’t picked up on anything in the MSM that says anyone voted for any of the candidates because he/she was pro amnesty especially on the right. Never have I seen a bill crash and burn so spectacularly due soley to the people voicing their opposition as I did with the amnesty bill. The sentiment is still out there.


41 posted on 02/07/2008 12:05:48 PM PST by Delacon (Don't Immanentize the Eschaton.)
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To: tcrlaf

Saw this on the Corner just now and it reminded me of your post. Tax reform? Healthcare? Are they "non issues" like immigration?

The Politics of Immigration   [Ramesh Ponnuru]

Max Boot:

Anti-immigration sentiment is a fool’s gold issue. It looks alluring from a distance but up close it is revealed as nothing but dross. Just ask President Tancredo.

You can try this at home, folks. Tax reform is a fool's gold issue. Just ask President Forbes. National health care is a fool's gold issue. Just ask President Edwards. . . .


42 posted on 02/07/2008 12:50:32 PM PST by Delacon (Don't Immanentize the Eschaton.)
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To: Delacon

McCain's adoring public awaits news of his plans for blanket amnesty for all illegal aliens.


43 posted on 02/07/2008 1:13:27 PM PST by Digital Sniper (Hello, "Undocumented Immigrant." I'm an "Undocumented Border Patrol Agent.")
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To: Delacon

btt


44 posted on 02/07/2008 2:42:55 PM PST by Cacique (quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat ( Islamia Delenda Est ))
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To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com

The average income abroad is $10,000.

The Federal poverty level (US) is $10,000.

Conclusion, we’re all doomed.

Run - skilled, hardworking, taxpayers,- run away!


45 posted on 02/07/2008 5:03:10 PM PST by 4Liberty (U.S. Income Tax laws are enforced... but Immigration laws aren’t = global tax.)
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To: Delacon

Fight all you want, but a pathway to citizenship will eventually be offered to undocumented Americans. It cannot be stopped.


46 posted on 02/07/2008 7:14:28 PM PST by End Times Crusader (John McCain - Leadership for America ; Committed to victory and 100 years in Iraq)
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To: the_devils_advocate_666
"I have yet to meet one McCain supporter. How in the he$$ is he winning the nomination? It just makes no sense to me..."

You simply refuse to see the big picture, but don't worry, a little reeducation will work it all out.

47 posted on 02/07/2008 7:16:50 PM PST by norton (There is no longer any choice)
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To: GeronL

Don’t be so overly dramatic. Immigrants will rejuvenate both our country and our party.


48 posted on 02/07/2008 7:19:37 PM PST by End Times Crusader (John McCain - Leadership for America ; Committed to victory and 100 years in Iraq)
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To: Texas Federalist

Why don’t you just pull a Coulter and vote Dim outright.


49 posted on 02/07/2008 7:25:55 PM PST by End Times Crusader (John McCain - Leadership for America ; Committed to victory and 100 years in Iraq)
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To: End Times Crusader
Immigrants will rejuvenate both our country and our party.

Give us some real world evidence to back that up. California would be a good place to start, since it's ground zero in the illegal alien invasion. What evidence do you have from there that the state has become stronger since the arrival of these illegals? How about the state GOP?

I know I'm intruding on your private space by asking you to intellectually debate a topic, rather than just following your usual routine of posting-and-running-away. But give it a try.

50 posted on 02/07/2008 7:30:48 PM PST by puroresu (Enjoy ASIAN CINEMA? See my Freeper page for recommendations (updated!).)
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