Posted on 12/16/2007 11:15:52 PM PST by Mobile Vulgus
Mormons aren't Christians ...
... and other thoughts on religion and politics sure to get your blood boiling
Herewith, my views on religion and the politics of the present moment, with something to offend just about everyone:
1. Mormons aren't Christians. I don't mean that as a criticism, only as a descriptive phrase. When Mormons claim Jesus Christ as their savior, there's no reason to doubt their sincerity and good will, or even to deny that they are in some way followers of Christ. Yet Mormonism rejects foundational doctrines of traditional Christian orthodoxy, such that it is impossible to reconcile with normative Christianity.
2. Anyway, the Latter-day Saints church teaches that all other Christian churches are apostate. A heretic is someone who rejects one or more doctrines of religion, but an apostate is someone who has rejected the religion entirely. How is it, exactly, that you can get mad when people you regard as apostates consider you to be ... apostate? How does that work?
3. Theologically, this is a big deal. But politically, so what? Mormons vote like Southern Baptists and come down on the same side of most issues of public morality like conservative Christians do. If you're a socially conservative lawmaker, wouldn't you rather have a Mormon in your legislative foxhole than a Kennedy-style cafeteria Catholic or progressive mainline Protestant? I'm no Romney fan, but is there really no meaningful political difference between Good-Mormon Mitt and Bad-Catholic Rudy, to say nothing of Liberal-Protestant Hillary?
4. There are plenty of good reasons for conservative Christians not to vote for Mr. Romney, but his religious beliefs are not among them. Do Christians want to be in the position of rejecting a candidate whose political views and moral values they agree with, solely because they don't like his religion?
(Excerpt) Read more at dallasnews.com ...
Mormons believe that Jesus was the divine son of God who died and was resurrected, and therefore they are Christians, regardless of any other doctrinal differences. To say otherwise, in my opinion, is just playing with words. Unitarians believe that Jesus was an inspired prophet of God, but not himself divine, so Unitarians are not Christians. We’ve had Unitarian Presidents and the country did OK. I’m quite sure we’ll do alright with a Mormon President, if they’re otherwise well qualified.
You obviously didn’t bother to read the article. Shame.
Dreher is all over the place in this article, trying to cover all his bases.
Mitt believes that his wife cannot rise to heaven unless he, Mitt, calls her up by her secret name that only he and she knows.
I’m not voting for a person who believes women are inferior before god.
I read it and disagreed with it. Frankly I’m sick of the subject, but wished to express my opinion at least once. The U.S. constitution says very clearly there will be no religious test for federal office, but many so-called conservatives don’t seem to take that document very seriously, or so it seems to me.
That means the government can't test - voters can and should.
Being a “Christian” has had a particular meaning for 2000 years. It does not mean whatever anyone wants it to mean.
I am ignorant. What is "blow"?
Yeah, screw the tree trunk. We can build our own branches.
There's at least one "constitutional scholar" on every thread about Mormons who trots that out.
[What is “blow”?]
Cocaine hydrochloride—cocaine in powdered form.
I’m not voting for a person who believes women are inferior before god.
You seem to have omitted the other half - that he believes if he doesn't seek her out and reunite with her, he won't gain exaltation either. They go as a team or not at all. Hardly makes women inferior.
oh yes those stupid Jews again...
I remember picking up Mere Christianity and being very excited to read it, because it was advertised as a thinking-person’s guide to the faith. Wow, was I disappointed. Lewis tried (pathetically) to prove by reason and evidence what can only be “proved” — or rather, experienced — by faith.
To wit: his assertion that Jesus was either a madman or was the Son of God he claimed to be; since he obviously wasn’t a madman, he must have been the Son of God. When secular liberals hear such laughable reasoning, they immediately think there’s nothing Christianity has to offer, and they don’t bother trying to enter into relationship with God, which should be the central point.
moot point since it doesn't matter what religion a person is..that is their business....just as long as you don't claim to be something you are not...
There is a major chasm between Mormonism and historic Christianity. Its much more than playing with words. They are in fact irreconcilable theologically and doctrinally. Each considers the other heresy and apostasy. They both can not be Christian. Note that I am not saying which one I think is correct.
I’m quite sure we’ll do alright with a Mormon President, if they’re otherwise well qualified.
I quite agree. Unfortunately Mitt is a RINO. No votes for him, regardless of his religion.
Mormons themselves believe other Christians have rejected the core faith. As such, they do not define the “core faith” the same way that other Christians do, and therefore do not share this core faith. Ergo, they’re not Christians in any meaningful sense of the word.
OK, glad you read it then.
But, the reason I assumed you didn’t is neither me nor the article said no one should vote for Mitt because he is a Mormon. Since that was your only point it seemed that you just threw some non-sequitur out there without having read it.
But, like the writer said, Mormons are NOT Christian. It’s just a plain fact that they aren’t. It is utterly indisputable. Mormons are Mormons. They are NOT Christians.
But, here is the thing. I am not against Romney because he is a Mormon, I am against him because he is a liar and is less a conservative than he is a Christian.
But donna is correct. The "No religious test" does not apply to individuals, just as freedom of speech does not compel media outlets to publish everyone. It's the difference between government restrictions and private discernment.
Blow is Yayo.
Do you believe Catholics are pope-, priest-, or saint-centered, and therefore not Christian? Just wondering.
Speaking for myself, I think it’s OK for denominations to disagree on the mode by which to access Christ. Catholics want the relationship mediated by a church bureaucracy. I don’t go for that, but since their ultimate concern is Christ, they’re Christians.
As Rod said in the article, though, Mormons themselves believe other Christians are apostate — having rejected the true faith. Thus, they define the true faith differently and are therefore not of the same religion as other Christians.
ATTENTION EVERYONE...
I did not add the second part of the title on this thread.
All I titled this was “Mormons aren’t Christians”
The board mods added the part about M. Luther.
Just so everyone knows.
Powder cocaine.
Thanks a whole helluva lot!
Only it ISN’T a “big detour.” The article is quite clear if you actually read it. It says that a Mormon is fine for office, it’s just incorrect to say they are Christians.
A vote for Romney is a vote for a liberal and a liar (though the two words are one and the same, really).
I’ll call Luther a heretic. There. :)
I offer it as a resource because he is quite accurate in his description of what Christians agree upon, and what the term "Christian" has meant from the very beginning of Christianity.
[. . .How is it, exactly, that you can get mad when people you regard as apostates consider you to be ... apostate? How does that work?]
It seems to me that anyone who is solidly grounded in their Faith will not have the time or inclination to obsess about what other churches are teaching or practicing.
This should bring out the bigots.
“It is utterly indisputable.”
I say it is wrong, so it is utterly disputable. I just disputed it! A Christian is anyone who worships Jesus as the son of God who was resurrected from the dead. Period. Anyone who disagrees with me, is simply mistaken!
Original Response: You seem to have omitted the other half - that he believes if he doesn't seek her out and reunite with her, he won't gain exaltation either. They go as a team or not at all. Hardly makes women inferior.
Right as far as you went ... however, once Mitt and Ann "gain exaltation," Ann will be one of Mitt's many wives and she will be forever pregnant and giving birth to Mitt's "spirit babies."
Hardly makes women equal.
LOL! The Gospel according to devere.
The article "We're Christians just like you!" does a pretty good job of laying out some of the fundamental differences between Mormonism and Christianity.
yep - that why the real name of their church if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
On their home page, I see a lot about Jesus -
I see on their page: "Faith in Christ":
This declaration:
"As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.
He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He “went about doing good” (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.
He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary’s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.
We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.
He rose from the grave to “become the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Corinthians 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His “other sheep” (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised “dispensation of the fulness of times” (Ephesians 1:10).
...
It's amazing that so many people claim to know what other people believe or don't believe...and have the affrontary judge them with such condemnation. Such are far less Christian than those they judge...
I say it is wrong, so it is utterly disputable. I just disputed it! A Christian is anyone who worships Jesus as the son of God who was resurrected from the dead. Period. Anyone who disagrees with me, is simply mistaken!I never said it wasn't your opinion. We are all entitled to our opinions, but we aren't entitled to our own facts.
You have a perfectly common opinion. Just no facts.
Mormons also believe that God was once a man, who evolved to become a God, and all Mormons will likewise evolve into becoming Gods, who will in turn be worshipped and prayed to as our God on Earth is.
It’s the old lie of Satan, that we can be as Gods, and Joseph Smith and his followers fell for it, just as Adam did.
Mormons are not Christians...
Ed
There is no “bigotry” in saying Mormons aren’t Christians. unless, of course, you just wish to shut down the discussion and cast off name calling as some sort of “proof” that you are right?
“His point of view is that of an academic, and as such is an excellent starting point for academics. It is a primer, nothing more.”
It’s an awful primer for academics, who would be much better served reading, for instance, St. Augustine who embraced Christianity precisely because it made no ridiculous claims at being logically provable. I’ve read about five books now by C.S. Lewis, with people continually assuring me that I’ve thus far read the wrong ones and just need to read a different one to understand his brilliance. I’ve given up.
As for the point about what Christians agree on, I’d suggest that people read the various creeds that were adopted long ago — especially the Apostle’s and Nicene Creeds — rather than suffer through the embarrassing drivel of C.S. Lewis.
The ignorance displayed on these threads in incredible.
IMHO, I would phrase the question implied by the author differently. A direct answer to his question, "whose morality ans whose religion?" is simply that which God provides Himself for us to follow. He doesn't provide a religion where man himself (other than Christ Jesus) establishes the doctrines of their faith, rather all faith comes from Him and just as different believers may have different spiritual gifts, their paths of sanctification may vary from believer to believer, but always through faith in Christ.
The author also might do better to use a vocabulary that better expresses his meaning in the word "religion".
Religion, per se, is acknowledged as a valid for of worship in Scripture, so God does recognize religion. The humanist perspective, judging all forms of doctrine as comparative religion fails to qualify as religion in His eyes. When the humanist promotes religion without qualification, it becomes a counterfeit substitute for that which God provides.
The author is correct, IMHO, to sense a nation and its leaders are able to be successful even if believer or unbeliever. Nationhood is one of four divinely established institutions in which humans, believers and unbelievers, may live productive lives, provided they respect the legitimate authority of those institutions.
IMHO, we observe our nation attempting to dismantle legitimate authority of those institutions. Volition is challenged by legislation promoting the legalization of hate speech as a crime and promotion of infanticide. Marriage is challenged by the promotion of homosexual agendas. Family is challenged by divorce and humanist educational agendas. The nation is challenged by the promotion of a New World Order and globalization and a one world government.
Here is a set of notes regarding divine discipline for nations which reject what He provides.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1568429/posts
For these reasons, I find it imperative that the leadership of the nation be a believer and to remain in fellowship through Christ as best attainable. Those candidates who have exemplified worldly success, IMHO, are less qualified at this point in our history than one which simply remains in fellowship with God through faith in Christ.
A degenerate or backslidden believer, or unbeliever, are likely IMHO, to advance worldly agendas which will further attack divinely established institutions and their legitimate authority.
MItt might be a sharp fellow, but IMHO, not the right solution to the problems we really face.
“I say it is wrong, so it is utterly disputable. I just disputed it!”
Wow. Someone on FR explicitly defending moral relativism. There are no truths, per se; if someone says something is wrong, then by definition it is logically disputable. Is that your final answer?
A case could be made that Catholics are pope- or church-centered, rather than Christ-centered, since they mediate their relationship with God through the church bureaucracy. But the same could not be said about Lutherans, Methodists, and various Calvinists. The founders of those strands of Christian thought put the emphasis (to varying degrees) on Christ himself.
I myself wouldn’t call Catholics non-Christians, by the way.
“Anyone who disagrees with me, is simply mistaken!”
Pleae watch this and come back and see if you still hold to that.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo
I’ll take your opinion under advisement. You make a lot of sense. Thank you.
Lol. I hear ya.
No, Mormons aren’t Christians.
Spend some time doing a simple Google search and it will become crystal clear....they are WEIRD!
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