There is all ways today: split down the middle, men in front, balcony.
Posted on 12/16/2007 7:00:06 AM PST by goldstategop
Reform Judaism in the 19th century rejected the Orthodox observance of the Sabbath as a 24-hour day of rest, but the demands of living in the 21st century are compelling reasons to once more embrace the Sabbath, a leading Reform rabbi said Saturday.
The message came as nearly 6,000 Jews, wearing yarmulkes and bluejeans, prayer shawls and Ugg boots, gathered for a five-day convention of the Union for Reform Judaism.
The Jewish denomination, which claims the most adherents of any in the United States today, is characterized by a belief that each generation seeks to bring contemporary expression to the Jewish religious tradition.
Rabbi Eric Yoffie, president of the Union for Reform Judaism, in a Saturday morning sermon called on the community to once again adjust to the times
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus
I remember the fight my brother had with my parents because they would not allow music at his Saturday Bar Mitzvah...and they would not allow me even have a Bat Mitzvah..because THERE'S NOT SUCH THING AS A BAT MITZVAH...God, I miss my parents.
I have little respect for Yoffie. I doubt that he would want any part of the "club" you have in mind. I've attended two Bar Mitzvahs that Yoffie has presided over. Both times he gave political sermons. One I remember was that of a leftist gun-grabber. Both times I wanted to discuss his remarks with him but he apparently has some secret escape route from his shul. I sent him a letter about the gun-grabber remarks pointing out that there are guns everywhere in Israel and they have none of the problems he suggests that come with an armed citizenry. I received a "Thank you for your comments" reply. Like I said, I have little respect for Yoffie.
ML/NJ
“Let us strive therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.” Hebrews 4:10 This buttresses my point that Christians need JEWS, in order to be perfected. (sorry Ann, but its the other way around)
???? All shuls are not constructed with women in the back. Usually, it’s split in halfish with woman on one side and men on the other.
After the WCG blew up over the leadership taking the same path as liberal Jews took, which was in effect to nullify the Sabbath, the people who fled formed several other groups, the largest of which are the United Church of God (www.ucg.org) and the Living Church of God (www.livingcog.org).
I’m not Jewish but I did grow up in a very liberal,heavily Jewish town (which is represented today by Barney Frank).My experience in this matter suggests to me that “reform” Jews are the least observant of Jews...the ones most likely to embrace left wing garbage ideas.Could someone with more knowledge on this subject either confirm or refute the suspicion that I have that a substantial percentage of “reform” Jews are,in fact,atheists in disguise (or not in disguise)?
The real purpose of Reform Judaism should be “error correction”, that is, to spread the word among Jews that many practices are “cultural”, not religious, and as such are just detritus of ages past, and foreign lands, and misinterpretations that can be discarded at will.
In fact, it is an insult to the religion that such practices and superstitions are observed. Should Jews still be performing rituals started by Sabbatai Zevi? And yet some still are, not knowing they are false, their origins, or even why they are performed. Just tradition.
It is true that “errors are usually copied perfectly.” So how to eliminate mistakes embraced over time?
There are perhaps dozens or hundreds of errors in the Talmud. And just because Jews have been performing ritual acts that are wrong for a thousand years does not mean that they are any the less wrong, or at least unnecessary.
It takes a brave scholar to point out that a beloved and respected Rabbi made a blatant error, but nobody is perfect, and does it really honor such a respected person that his mistakes continue to besmirch his reputation?
Jews who continue to follow such error once it is known cannot truly pretend to be more religious, because what they practice is not religion, but superstition. In a way, it is much like having an idol of a golden calf in the living room, because a golden calf is mentioned in the Pentateuch.
Reform is more important than tradition, at times.
Dennis Prager defends orthodoxy in the sense that if it comes to attention to God or a woman's leg, the latter will win every time.
The least observant, and probably largest, group of Jews are the unaffiliated. My own experience is that they are also sometimes the most self-righteous in proclaiming their Jewishness, and usually their left political leaning.
There is a joke that Reform Judaism is like the Democratic Party with prayers. Like all good jokes, there is some truth to it. But Reform Judaism can be a decent path for someone to return to Judaism. It was for me. For a long time I used to describe myself a Reform leaning toward Orthodox. But I leaned so hard that now I belong to a "Conservadox" shul. Yes, I'm much happier there now than I was a my Reform place, but I think that if I had tried to start back at the Conservadox place with its three hour plus Saturday morning services conducted almost entirely in Hebrew, my return wouldn't have lasted very long. Now it is unlikely to end, and "Reform" deserves some of the credit.
As for whether any or many Reform Jews are really atheists, the answer is undoubtedly yes. (In fact I once attended a Saturday morning service in a Jerusalem synagogue which left out a line from the Torah service liturgy which I consider to be the central statement of Jewish faith: "This is the Torah from the mouth of G-d to the hand of Moses to the children of Israel" When I expressed my astonishment that they left it out one of the members of the congregation told me that they cut out the parts they didn't believe in!) But so what, if some of them are atheists? Many of them are not, and find Reform to be the right balance for them between the religious and the secular worlds in which they dwell.
ML/NJ
I’ve attended Orthodox and Conservative shuls, and outside differences in style I’m not sure what you mean by “errors”. Could you elaborate?
ML/NJ
I often go to a small Chabad center just down the street. 'A lot of Hebrew, but as satisfying to me as I am attentive. Sometimes I just drift through other, unrelated parts of the Siddur and Torah.
(Kiddush is may favorite part. Though, ssshhh.)
That’s pretty much my point. Judaism isn’t just about degrees of participation, though to most Jews it might appear to be, a great sliding scale of orthodoxy. It is in need of having its doctrines clarified and purged of non-religious practices long embraced as doctrine.
Say for example, in the 6th Century, a highly respected scholar with bad eyesight misinterpreted a word in a judgment to mean that all good Jewish women had to dye their feet blue. Since that time, the orthodox Jewish women whose ancestors came from that part of the world still dye their feet blue. Why should a modern reform Jew, whose ancestors didn’t come from that part of the world, think?
Should he see such women as being more orthodox, because their feet are blue? Many would, even there is no reason for it. Though a highly respected 6th Century scholar reached that conclusion, even an ordinary scholar today could see that he misread a word. Does his reputation overwhelm common sense?
Far too often, scholars today take at face value obviously non-religious practices. In such an example, they would ignore the need for reform, and argue over what shade of blue women should dye their feet. They would contribute to their error by enriching and magnifying it.
Just look at an ultra-orthodox Jew. You have to wonder how much of what he does actually matters in Judaism, and how much is just silliness picked up over dozens of generations.
It is not an impossible task to assume that what people said and did in the distant past was literal, that they were honest enough to say and do what they meant. And so wildly interpreting what they said to assume that they were speaking in allegory and metaphor may be assuming too much.
There is an honest and real core to Judaism. But Jews need to ask themselves if it is in danger of being swamped by vast amounts of dreck accumulated over thousands of years.
And this should be the real purpose of reform Judaism.
That's the way it is (women in balcony) in the Great Synagogue in Jerusalem. The first time I was there, they asked me to take the Torah out of the ark. What a great honor that was for me! And I got to see all the women too, because they obviously have to be able to see the ark. If you know there's ritual, there's probably no other time where one would have such a lengthy opportunity to survey the balcony.
ML/NJ
“.. to spread the word among Jews that many practices are “cultural”, not religious, and as such are just detritus of ages past, and foreign lands, and misinterpretations that can be discarded at will....In fact, it is an insult to the religion that such practices and superstitions are observed.”
Its an insult? Are you Jewish? Or just here to wipe out Judaism? BTW, that above credo of yours IS REFORM.
“Should Jews still be performing rituals started by Sabbatai Zevi?”
And exactly which practices are those?
I think you have no clue what you are talking about; Zevi actually said much of what YOU say - i.e., “forget the Talmud and do the opposite of the traditional.” (Yemach shemo - May his name be blotted out.).
“It is true that “errors are usually copied perfectly.” So how to eliminate mistakes embraced over time?”
Why not just bake them in ovens?
“There are perhaps dozens or hundreds of errors in the Talmud.”
Which is it, dozens, or hundreds? Can’t you make up your mind?
“And just because Jews have been performing ritual acts that are wrong for a thousand years does not mean that they are any the less wrong, or at least unnecessary.”
You seem to be confused - first you have a problem with “mistaken” Jewish rituals that you think come from the 17th century, then you whine about Jewish traditions from a thousand years ago. Hard to keep it straight, eh?
Especially if you can’t you find your links to that BS from, StormFront, Vanguard or the Aryan Nation.
Glad to see you on FR on America and Israel’s side against the sand-nazis - now go complete your education and stop repeating the SAME ANTI-JEWISH garbage spouted by our enemies.
Say for example, in the 6th Century, a flying saucer from Outer Space landed in front of Popocatapetl's ancestor's hut and impregnated Popocatapetl's great-great-...grandmother.
Would this be the cause of Popocatapetl making up absurd, irrelevant "what-if" scenarios?
Warning! This is a high-volume ping list.
Religion as planned obsolescence.
Let me add to that that in the very orthodox communities nowadays, the popular style is returning to the ladies section being a balcony overlooking the whole synagogue with a panoramic view. I remember my Rosh Yeshiva from high school pointing up to the ladies's balcony (ezras noshim in Hebrew) and saying with a sweet smile: "know who is above you" His rebbetzin used to sit up there and listen to his every word.
There is all ways today: split down the middle, men in front, balcony.
So, you see, your whole premise is deeply flawed and with it, your entire argument collapses. Reform Judaism does nothing to "correct errors", but ignores them, ignores the talmud, ignores the scriptures and the exegetical methodology for understanding them and has essentially invented and new brand of something that is not Judaism at all. Here's an analogy: A group of automotive engineers, thinking the automobile a very inefficient mode of transportation, get together to produce a new, improved car. So they get rid of the engine, the wheels, the transmission, the body and the chassis and replace them with a light bulb, a banana, 3 phone books and a chestful of costume jewelry. They assemble the components into some kind of contraption and then run around making "vroom, vroom noises as they trot from place to place. They tout the gas efficiency of their "new car" as perfect: infinite miles per gallon. Environmentally perfect: no carbon emissions. Stylish: oh yeah, just look at those glittering jewels. They mount a mass marketing campaign touting their new "car" as the answer to everything wrong with the old cars.
Well, obviously, they can call their thing a car all they want: it ain't no car and it ain't goin' nowhere and it ain't takin' anybody anywhere, neither. Just like Reform Judaism. (except for ml/nj, but that's because he figured it out).
Right you are, CG. Just saying, I’m seeing a lot of the balcony style. My mom and a lot of other ladies I know, like that arrangement because they get to see and hear everything going on.
And here I thought you wouldn't even think of looking. :-)
Our shul is split men on one side, women on the other, so we don’t see the bimah, but it never occured to me that I needed to for any reason. The rabbi comes up front to speak.
I'm all in support of religous Judiaism and faithful Jews. In fact, I follow one (when I'm not busy getting lost on the way...) ; )
It was Zevi's ideological heirs who created Reform Judaism.
One of Dennis Prager's oft repeated mantras is that "God has common sense", and that if He didn't, Prager could not believe in Judaism. So I always turn to Torah in my life, though in prayerfully trying to discern Biblical narrative vs Biblical law. Not surprisingly it seems to work remarkably well.
Thanks for your response, and all good to You and Yours....
It’s not for me to say, as a Catholic, but it has always struck me that Reformed Jews are to Jews what liberal Episcopalians or cafeteria Catholics are to Christians.
I still would not call them observant, but if they make some effort to observe the Sabbath, that’s certainly a step forward.
All through my life I have had good friends and colleagues who were secular Jews, and with a few honorable exceptions I repeatedly found myself defending Israel AGAINST them. The latest episode was when NYU wanted to have a special memorial service in honor of Edward Said, and all the Jews on the faculty were supportive of it. A liberal secular Jew is not necessarily a reformed Jew, but the line is somewhat blurred in my experience.
One of the great hallmarks of Jewish learning is that a good idea from anywhere is still a good idea. It actually gave me some amusement that with a single posting I received replies covering the gamut from considerate, polite and thoughtful, to one calling me a Nazi.
One scholar Rabbi I talked with long ago suggested that Jews are entering a period of history for reconsideration. That such reconsideration would come about if the possibility arose that the temple might be rebuilt in Jerusalem. So this debate is already beginning.
How would Jews adjust to a more centralized religious authority? Would they even accept the idea, or is Jerusalem too far away?
BUMP!
Still waiting to hear your good idea.
Reconsideration of what, exactly? You are living in the Land of La La.
All of this is really irrelevant. The only ones who are making aliyah at this time are the Orthodox and others from countries who feel their only option is to flee to Israel. The vaunted Reform movement is entirely fractured over its support of Israel so the whole argument over "what kind of government" or "reconsideration" is merely tongue flapping. Even its previous antagonism over "who is a Jew" is flying back in the face of the Reform movement because of the massive fraud of non-Jews coming to Israel, claiming Jewish roots.
Typical Reform Jewish newspeak, creating nonsensical issues where there are none so they can feel important and find yet another reason not to keep kosher, keep shabbos, or marry a non-Jew. :)
Well said.
There's also the mechitzot that the women can see through but the men can't.
There aren't enough of us that we should cavalierly write others out of the tribe. Take a hint from your namesake who does the JM in the AM radio show.
ML/NJ
Why do I always hear this argument from people who have < 1.3 offspring, just before that other famous excuse, "but they're Jewish according to... some maniac in Germany"
I have tried to have this conversation here before, and was disappointed. The reform movement has many many liberals who have no clue and a few folks who are gaining a clue. It also has a richness and inclusiveness that makes it a rich source of faith. I to have written several letters to URJ officials expressing my dismay about a number of positions they have and do take. Yet, slowly slowly, we find our way to the faith and richness that is the fruit of Judaism.
ML/NJ
Yours is really sad.
“We’re so hated, and there are so few of us, we should just accept with open arms anyone who wants to join us!”
That worked so well with immigration from the former USSR, didn’t it?
Reconsideration of what, exactly?
If you start from the premise of no G-d or that the Torah is not from G-d, then you can reconsider everything, always. The men's club can do away with Genesis over bagels and lox, the ladies auxiliary can delete Exodus while planning the annual clam bake, the youth league will toss Leviticus at the temple pajama party, the cantor will dump Numbers during interfaith choral practice and Deuteronomy is out courtesy of the Rabbi in his Shabbos podcast.
After all, its all open for "reconsideration".
I walked away from Temple in 1969 after trying to get my rabbi involved in the Soviet Jewry movement. He told me to "stay away from those fanatics" and "Jews in Russia are basically happy living under Communism."
Of course, a decade later they were all for "Soviet Jewry" when it became popular and the "in" thing, and all the non-Jewish ballet dancers, novelists and sports stars became Temple heroes. Doing what is "popular" and "in" is more important than believing in G-D or following G-D's laws.
Well, I will not even try to defend all of the Reform Rabbi's. But, I will point out it isn't 1969 any longer. I have talked to all sorts of folks who vote with their feet to go from here to there. Folks who were frustrated by this or that, and this will happen. I shake my head about what they are teaching at the Hebrew Union College now a days, but, I have faith that things are going in a nice direction as a whole for the Reform movement, and this despite of the current lamentable mindset of many of the leaders at URJ.
That these folks even let me in the place is a testament to religious concentration that our congregation has adopted, its about God and enhancing the Jewish identity of the children, the rest comes under social action and as long as one is patient and willing to keep pushing, the definition of what this means evolves.
Nevertheless, all indicators are good as the congregation is slowly coming back and getting more faithful. The discussion of enhancing Shabbot is a great example of return to faith and letting go of the foolishness. Many are relooking at the Bar and Bat Mitzvah phenomena and wanting to make this more traditional, as well as celebrating the Shabbot morning service, which is pure joy.
I am well fairly well acquainted with Dennis Praeger and his attitudes on orthodox Judaism as I live in southern California, I have listened to his "shtick" for almost 20 years.
The ignorance on display in this thread is breathtaking. Just like all religious groups, there is a spread from the very religious to the folks who just make it once a year. But, even once a year is more than none.
That sir, is a gratuitas swipe at the orthodox Jews who would post on this site- much like your hero Dennis Praeger. I am overjoyed that Dennis is on now on KRLA where he can regurgitate most of what Rush Limbaugh offers more concisely whenever he speaks on politics.
What Dennis never does, is engage in his religious ideas on conversion, mi-yehudi, and a number of other Jewish matters with any of the real authorities in the orthodox world who have almost photo-graphic memory of the tanach. Abner Weiss, the former Rabbi at Beth Jacob, the modern orthodox synagogue in Los Angeles embarassed him completely on the authenticity of Jewish mysticism in Jewish law and responsa on his own show. The advantage that Rabbi Weiss had, was that since the good Rabbi was sitting next to Dennis, and Dennis could not turn his mic off, he just sounded lame and shut up. I have heard Dennis rip into poor orthodox Jews who had the temerity call his show. He takes special delight in trying to embarass them. Nice guy.
Yes, Dennis Paeger is a conservative- but so what. I have read his books too. Notice that the actual sections of real research and knowledge, depend on other men who have devoted their lives to the study of Jewish Law and responsa. By the way, did you know that your your vaunted Reform friends threatened the life of Rabbi Cunin when he came to Los Angeles? Did you know that the Reform movement threatened the life of the previous Chabad Rebbe when he came to New York to escape the Nazis? .
You are 100% correct. We are indeed one people. I wasn't writing off any Jew, but rather stating a simple truth about what has been going on in Israel. I appreciate your link to your Nachum, but prefer to listen to Tovia and Tamar:
mms://msmedia.a7.org/arutz7/shows/tnt/tnt071212.mp3
mms://msmedia.a7.org/arutz7/shows/tnt/tnt071212.mp3
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