Posted on 12/12/2007 10:25:14 AM PST by Zakeet
BOSTON — Republican presidential hopeful Gov. Mitt Romney answered rival Mike Huckabee's upcoming published comments about Mormonism, declaring Wednesday that "attacking someone's religion is really going too far."
In an article to be published Sunday in The New York Times, Huckabee, an ordained Southern Baptist minister, asks, "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"
Romney, vying to become the first Mormon elected president, declined to answer that question during an interview Wednesday, saying church leaders in Salt Lake City had already addressed the topic.
"But I think attacking someone's religion is really going too far. It's just not the American way, and I think people will reject that," Romney told NBC's "Today" show.
Asked if he believed Huckabee was speaking in a coded language to evangelicals, Romney praised his rival as a "good man trying to do the best he can," but he added, "I don't believe that the people of this country are going to choose a person based on their faith and what church they go to."
Huckabee has been surging in recent opinion polls, taking the GOP lead in Iowa and pressing closer to Rudy Giuliani in polling.
The former Massachusetts governor also was asked why he used the term "Mormon" only once last week in a highly publicized speech about religion in which he said he was proud of his faith.
"Actually, we prefer the name 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,"' he said. "'Mormon' used to be a nickname and I don't use it a lot, but now and then I do because people know what faith I'm referring to, and I talked about 'my faith' a number of times, and I don't imagine anybody is confused about what faith I have."
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
Huckabee should be more covert. He’s not running against Romney. He’s running against the Democrats.
He should be publicly discussing Harry Reid’s Mormonism. < /sarc >
...and their answer was?????
My wife, being a former firmly-entrenched mormon, would tell you that, yes, they in fact believe and are currently taught that Jesus and Satan are brothers. ...Also that if they are good enough, they will become god over their own universe someday. ...Just fyi.
Mitt is correct. How about attacking his record? It IS a target rich envirobment after all.
“Huckabee should be more covert.... He’s running against the Democrats.”
Not until after the primaries are over.
You couldn't be more wrong. If he knocks Romney out early its clear sailing, with it down to him and Guliani, who he can probably beat. Its very clever politicking, actually.
I would never, EVER vote for a damn babtiss for POTUS. Especially a jackleg babtiss preacherman. Like a used car salesman. Worse.
Just answer the question.
Can you rule your universe anyway you want to? If so, I will be known as “NavVet the merciless”, crushing liberalisim within my universe with an iron fist. Also, Friday’s would be casual clothes day, “Or else.”
Great reasoning.
Such reasoning will get us the hildabeast or bomba as POTUS.
This is great news. The Suit and the crazy Arkansan are going to have a debate on theology. This will turn both of them off to the general public (as they both already are with fiscal conservatives). St. Rudy is already dropping to boot and after Fred’s dismal appearance in NH and IA the ‘frontrunners’ will all appear even worse than they already are.
LOL! ...That's funny. My universe would be different only from the aspect of I would be the only "guy" in it. All others would be tall, slender, athletic (hetero) women!
According to Fox News a “spokes-woman for the Mormon Church” denies that the church teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers and said that is only raised by people who are trying to discredit the Mormon Church.
Well, let’s consider what is on the Mormon’s own website. You can make up your own mind.
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-6,00.html
Note: Some of my dearest (and I believe Christian) friends are Mormons. We have significant doctrinal differences. What they, and all Mormons have to answer is why their church would lie about what has been accpeted LDS doctrine since the days of Joseph Smith.
I would answer the question with a question: "I don't know , Mike, do Southern Baptists believe that Catholics are not Christians?"
The confusion comes from the weird LDS "spirit children" belief and their non-Christian understanding of Jesus.
Mitt is being self-righteous here while his supporters attack Christians for proselytizing.
White Horse Prophesy
A man’s beliefs should withstand the strongest of scrutiny.
The more I hear this Huckabee, the less respect I have for him.
I want to know what the ‘coded’ language was that Romney mentioned.
I don’t see Huck speaking in code.
Having grown up around Baptists....and left that circle long ago....the last leader that I’d want....in the military, or business, or government....would be a Baptist minister. We don’t need a guy quoting the Bible...to make a decision on some major tasking. The entire game of dragging religion into the debates and race....was about as dumb as one can get. Count Huckabee off the list entirely...lets line up the remaining three real players, and make our decision with them.
restornu posted a good response here:
Are we not all God's Children and if so did not Lucifer who sang among The Morning Stars who also the one whoFell from Heaven and now no longer part of Heavenly Father children!You can also read from the LDS Gospel Principles manual here: Jesus Christ, Our Chosen Leader and SaviorRom. 8: 16-17 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
It is amazine how the same critics have been shown scripture amd continue this misrepresentation of that quote!
Remeber before Lucifer/Satan fell from heaven he was not origianlly an outcast!
Revealtion 12:7-13
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
We believe our Heavenly Father is the Father of all Spirits on this earth, including Jesus Christ, Satan, and each of us. We believe Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the father. Or the only one who's biological parent is Heavenly Father. Some LDS authors have interpreted this to mean that Heavenly Father physically impregnated Mary, but this is not supported by scriptural references or church doctrine.
Personally, religious doctrine is not high on my list of issues to consider for POTUS.
A perfectly legimate question to bring out distinctions between candidates. In this case, the serious doctrinal differences between Mormonism and Christianity, lest the voting public be deceived in thinking that Mormons are just another Christian denomination.
If a candidate wants to appeal to the value-voters, then his values and religious worldview are on the table.
At least Huckabee didn't bring up polygamy, blacks, vestments, temple sacraments, the ex cathedra pronouncments of the President/Prophet about many other sticky issues. That would have been ugly.
I'm sure Huckabee would have been happy to answer questions about essential Christian doctrine, being at all times prepared to give a defense of the gospel. Christian mysteries are not secrets concealed by men from men, but by God Himself.
A thoughtful reply, thank you.
It is possible to have doctrinal differences with many people. And to be clear, I am not one who makes blanket statements such as, “Mormons are not Christians.” (I figure that some are, some aren’t. Much the same as the average evangelical fellowship.)
But it is not so much the doctrinal difference that concerns me here, although I think it is a fair question of a candidate. I want to know everythng about the person I vote for, including their beliefs.
What bothers me is that, apparently the Mormon Church is willing to claim that the Jesus/Satan brotherhood is not a point of Mormon doctrine when it most clearly is (and which your response and restornu’s response argue). I find that denial to be extremely troubling. If I were Mormon I think I would find it even more troubling.
I do hope that Mitt has the sense not to deny the doctrine. I disagree with the doctrine, but I respect anyone’s right to a different belief than mine.
Excerpt:
De-sexualizing God and religion
. . . Thus, the first thing Judaism did was to de-sexualize God: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” by his will, not through any sexual behavior.
This was an utterly radical break with all other religions, and it alone changed human history.
The gods of virtually all civilizations engaged in sexual relations. In the Near East, the Babylonian god Ishtar seduced a man, Gilgamesh, the Babylonian hero. In Egyptian religion, the god Osiris had sexual relations with his sister, the goddess Isis, and she conceived the god Horus. In Canaan, El, the chief god . . .
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0003.html
I am confused.
Didn't Mormon President Brigham Young state: "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p.51).
Didn't Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith state: "They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.19).
Didn't Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie state: "These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp.546-47).
Didn't Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie also state: "And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, ... Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p.742).
It seems the idea that "Heavenly Father physically impregnated Mary" is indeed clearly supported by both statements from church leaders and by church doctrine.
When the party sorts out to two front-runners, if one of those is identified with religion (Romney and Huckabee)and the other with Federalism (Rudy and Fred), the Federalist will win it hands-down.
Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled. There was war in heaven. Satan and his followers fought against Jesus and his followers.
In this great rebellion, Satan and all the spirits who followed him were sent away from the presence of God and cast down from heaven. One-third of the spirits in heaven were punished for following Satan: they were denied the right to receive mortal bodies.
Because we are here on earth and have mortal bodies, we know that we chose to follow Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father. Satan and his followers are also on the earth, but as spirits. They have not forgotten who we are, and they are around us daily, tempting us and enticing us to do things that are not pleasing to our Heavenly Father. In our premortal life, we chose the right. We must continue to choose the right here on earth. Only by following Jesus can we return to our heavenly home.
In an article to be published Sunday in The New York Times, Huckabee, an ordained Southern Baptist minister, asks, "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?"
Too cute. Hehe! He plays dumb, but sends out his message loud and clear. You have to give Huck credit, he played it quite well.
A valid point, hopefully Huck will pursue it! Pointing out doctrinal differences is different than pointing out differences in moral values.
Interesting, I've never known the church to deny the doctrine.
That was in fact what FoxNews reported on the air this afternoon. I’ve done a little more research, and now stand corrected (a little bit). Like you, I had never before heard the LDS church deny that doctrine.
Here, from FoxNews online is a fuller statement from the LDS spokesperson:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316548,00.html
“A spokeswoman for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said Huckabee’s question is usually raised by those who wish to smear the Mormon faith rather than clarify doctrine.
“We believe, as other Christians believe and as Paul wrote, that God is the father of all,” said the spokeswoman, Kim Farah.
“That means that all beings were created by God and are his spirit children. Christ, on the other hand, was the only begotten in the flesh and we worship him as the son of God and the savior of mankind. Satan is the exact opposite of who Christ is and what he stands for.””
So it was not a denial of the doctrine, but still something a little less than , “Yes, we believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers.” I think one would have to know a little more about Mormon doctrine overall to fully parse the statement since there are numerous assumptions within it that challenge orthodox theology.
I really, really would have to sit it out if it was la bomba or the beast versus huckleberry hound.
I was being overly hyperbolic with my remark out of a desire to hit back because I was outraged over the attack on Gov. Romney’s religion, but no, I don’t trust an ‘ordained baptist minister’, whatever that means, to run the country. I didn’t think the baptists believed in ordination.
If God created everything, what is traditional christian doctrine regarding who created Satan?
The suit and the fatass? He’s supposed to have lost all this weight, but he still looks like a lardo to me.
That's a contradiction in terms. The only understanding they can violate is Catholic. Yes they're apostate. But these days, it's ok to be an apostate!
I don't see what the big deal is here, this is not a stretch..........we are all children of God (Acts 17:29), and thus "brothers".
When I was a kid, I attended a mainstream church, and was given a Bible, and in the back of that Bible it said that I would learn that Jesus was my Elder Brother.........in most of the funerals (conducted by ministers of various churches) that I have attended in my life, it is often repeated by those ministers that the deceased has been called home.....
Let me see now, if we were with God (home) before we came to the earth and got a body you can poke with a stick, we must have been with Him as a spirit, because that is how we go back to Him, as a spirit (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
Now, the Bible tells us that a rebellious Satan and those aligned with him were cast down from Heaven (Home) to the earth (Luke 10:18 and Revelation 12:7-12).........could it be they were also spirits and therefore our brethren in Heaven (Home) before they were cast down?
From a temporal perspective, Jesus is the Elder Brother of Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and every murderer, rapist, and child molester on earth.......but this fact in no way diminishes the glory and magnificence of the Savior, just as it does not diminish The Redeemer for His being the Elder Brother of the rebellious spirits in Heaven (Home), including Satan...............
HPMFR (have prepared myself for flaming retorts)
:}
Yes God created Satan. But Satan chose to rebel and fell. I know of no provision for Satan’s salvation and, in fact, the Bible says that Hell was created for Satan and his angels.
But here is a distinction b/n Mormon and orthodox Christian doctrine. God did not create Jesus. They are one and the same. They and they alone eternally pre-exist.
I think the problem starts with what that 'brotherhood' means to LDS and non-LDS audiences. From the LDS perspective, we are all, including Satan and his followers, spirit siblings but Christ is the only begotten of the Father. Some anti-LDS authors want to imply that our belief that Satan's spiritual father is the same as Christ's is in conflict with the statement that Christ is the only begotten. Here is today's official press release on this issue from the LDS.org Newsroom:
SALT LAKE CITY 12 December 2007 Like other Christians, we believe Jesus is the divine Son of God. Satan is a fallen angel.As the Apostle Paul wrote, God is the Father of all. That means that all beings were created by God and are His spirit children. Christ, however, was the only begotten in the flesh, and we worship Him as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind.
You wanna bet? Why is the MSM and the DNC keeping their grubby mits far away from Huckster-bee? They're doing all they can to build up the latest and greatest "Man from Hope" because they know they can take him out without breaking a sweat if by some miracle he gets the nomination.
Heard him referred to on the radio this morning as a "Republican McGovern". Need we say more about this charlatan?
Yes, I had stumbled on the rest of what the LDS spokeswoman had said and stand corrected—to a degree. If we want to approach this fro a doctrinal point of view, the real conflict for me is that the Jesus and Satan as brothers idea equates Jesus and Satan while, I believe, (and it is a very common point of orthodox Christian doctrine) that Jesus and God the Father (along with the Holy Spirit are one and the same, They/He alone eternally pre-exist.
I do hope that Mitt has the sense not to deny the doctrine. I disagree with the doctrine, but I respect anyone’s right to a different belief than mine.
How should it be a problem when one of the Morning stars (angels) (Lucifer/Satan) the who fell from heaven and was vanished from the Lord's Kingdom to never return.
The Morning Stars were us while still spirit angels!
God asks Job where he was when the foundations of the earth were laid, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy—
Job 38
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
In all fairness this not that an ourrages it shows that their was one among them who was an enemy to the Heanvenly Father and now no longer part of the family of God!
Lucifer had miss used his gifts and therefore received no more increase in the Kingdom of God.
There are all kinds of angels and different degrees of angels!
when we were create in human form meaning the temporal body, we became a little lower than the spirit angels, when we are resurrected some day we will be above the spirit angels.
| Zakeet's post | esarlls3's response |
|---|---|
| Didn't Mormon President Brigham Young state: "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p.51). Didn't Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith state: "They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing! Neither does the Bible" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.19). |
Jesus Christ was begotten of the Father. Since we believe the Holy Ghost is a different being, Christ can't be begotten of both of them. Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, [so Mary can stand the presence of Heavenly Father] and the power of the Highest [Heavenly Father] shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Alma 7:10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost [meaning the Holy Ghost was required for the conception to take place], and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God [meaning his biological father is our Heavenly Father]. The scriptures don't indicate the details about how it took place, just that it happened. Mary being "overshadowed by the power of the Holy Ghost" may not have remembered what took place. If she did, there is no record of her sacred experience being transferred to others, but rather kept private to ponder in her heart. |
| Didn't Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie state: "These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp.546-47). Didn't Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie also state: "And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, ... Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p.742). It seems the idea that "Heavenly Father physically impregnated Mary" is indeed clearly supported by both statements from church leaders and by church doctrine. |
1) When Bruce R. McConkie wrote Mormon Doctrine he was not an Apostle. 2) The book Mormon Doctrine is not published by the LDS church. While it is useful for reference, it represents the views of one person and is not an official doctrinal reference. 3) You will not find this doctrine taught anywhere on LDS.org, which includes all LDS scriptures, LDS teaching materials, talks by LDS leaders in General Conferences, and LDS church magazines. Certainly Bruce R. McConkie believed there was physical contact between Heavenly Father and Mary. There is no scriptural evidence to support or refute this belief. It is an unanswered question. I don't believe the church has a position one way or the other. Does virgin mean simply that she was a virgin before conception or that she remained a virgin after conception? Personally, I think it was the latter and that Bruce R. McConkie was wrong on this. I believe he was wrong about some other things in Mormon Doctrine, too. |
A valid point, hopefully Huck will pursue it! Pointing out doctrinal differences is different than pointing out differences in moral values.
But is does point explicitely to major differences in their worldviews which in turn will shed light on morality and moral differences.
Okay, cite the moral differences! If you claim it, I hope you know it.
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