Posted on 12/04/2007 10:42:17 PM PST by Kurt Evans
The problem with your fanciful creation is that the spirit doesn’t lose consiousness when the body fails.
[Matthew 13:10-11] And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Oh.....chapter and verse....please?
That doesn't say that the parable gave a falsehood; only that they couldn't understand.
You may take that implication, but I didn't suggest it. Your (or mine) failure to interpret the parable correctly doesn't make it a lie. The parable ran deep and wasn't a statement about the fate of sinners versus the righteous as you seem to suggest. Christ never called the rich man a sinner or the poor man righteous. In fact, if you believe that then you would have to believe that the poor man got to heaven without faith in Christ.
There are in fact many theories about what it represents. Your interpretation is at odds with scripture after scripture telling us that sinners die and that eternal life is only possible through Christ.
Paul speaks of having knowledge, but not having recall of weather it was in or out of body. There could be no question if the spirit lost consiousness when the body did.
If that were in question, they would not have been separated by a gulf.
We are expecting torrential rain tonight and tomorrow.... and a lot of hillsides here in Orange County have been denuded because of the recent fires. We are hoping for the best....but preparing for mud. Many canyons have already been evacuated.
I think this is the tail end of what they had up north (Oregon and Washington). Stay safe my FRiend.
It’s raining lightly here, but has done so all day. It’s nothing compared to what my brother went through up in Oregon; rain blowing sideways 50 feet into sheltered areas!
Have your plywood and sandbags ready though.
Again you're making an assumption that flies in the face of the rest of scripture. The penalty for sin IS death:
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
I think that Christ was telling a parable to the Pharisees that was tailored to their mindset. You're projecting a "Dante's Inferno" interpretation to this parable.
Your ‘scripture’ appears selective.
G’nite!
It is "scripture". :-)
If you would like I would be glad to show every occurrence and all the scriptural evidence that shows that sin leads to death and not eternal life.
For example, [Revelation 20:14-15]
"And death and hell (Hades,the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."needs to be expanded a few verses to see that [Rev 20:10]
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
Surely you can see from these verses that the punishment is indeed eternal. Perhaps the difficulty stems from what you view as life. Nowhere is the existence of these spirits after the judgement defined as life. Spirits do not live, but they exist eternally. There are many more passages in the word that make the same declarations as these do.
Note the term "second death". It's called the "second death" because those who have been resurrected go through a judgment. If they do not accept Christ, they go through the second death.
needs to be expanded a few verses to see that [Rev 20:10]
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
The devil, who IS immortal, is cast into the lake of fire. The beast and false prophet, who are mortal and human, WERE thrown into the lake of fire earlier:
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
The verse you quoted:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
The word highlighted in red "are" is in parenthesis to indicate that it was added to the greek...it is not part of the inspired text. It is translator bias. If the word "are" is used, it indicates that they're still alive. However, not all translations use "are". For example the Modern King James renders it:
Rev 20:10 And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [were}. And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
They WERE thrown into the lake of fire. And died.
"Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
This is a good example. Let's look at the NASB:
Jud 1:5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Jude brings up the example of destroying non-believers. Destroying, not subjecting to an everlasting hell.
Jud 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
He contrasts it with demons who are not mortal who are kept bound until judgment day.
Jud 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Most commentators say this refers to the original destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah by "eternal fire". It's the fire that's eternal, not the punishment. It can be thought of as "the fire of the eternal" or as I prefer, a perpetual fire which is an example of the type of fire that was burning in gehenna, a fire that never went out, a garbage dump in a valley where waste and refuge were thrown. A previous post pointed this out.
Again, there are literally dozens of scriptural references that show that eternal life is a gift of God to believers. However, modern Christianity somehow has bought into the notion that eternal life is something we already have.
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Sinners do NOT have eternal life. The fate of sinners is death, to perish.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
You’re deceiving yourself.
The word ‘are’ is only added for flow, and doesn’t change the meaning. English and Greek are not structured the same. Greek doesn’t require as many prepositions or articles to flow.
Spirits are not material, and are indeed eternal.
BTW, I don’t waste my time with so-called ‘modern’ ‘translations,’ since they were all based on the unbelievers Wescott and Hort’s revival of deliberately corrupted texts Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, that were produced by the mischief of Clement and Origen.
It's added for flow because of translator bias. It's purposely put into parenthesis to show that it's NOT part of the greek...to show that it's added. However, the flow, the bias, is entirely up to the translator and is not inspired.
Spirits are not material, and are indeed eternal.
In a general sense that's true. But what are you referring to?
Do you disagree that eternal life is a gift of God and that the fate of sinners is death?
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
BTW, I don’t waste my time with so-called ‘modern’ ‘translations,’ since they were all based on the unbelievers Wescott and Hort’s revival of deliberately corrupted texts Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, that were produced by the mischief of Clement and Origen.
I prefer the King James and the NASB. I will bring up other translations though to show that scripture translation is entirely up to the biases of the interpreters.
All of the dead inhabitants of the Earth are presently reduced to spirits. Only those that believed will be given bodies that permit them to again live. The rest will spend eternity as spirits without life or bodies, in tourment.
"Do you disagree that eternal life is a gift of God and that the fate of sinners is death?"
Not at all. Life requires a body, which will be given to those that believed.
Scripture? Especially scripture that shows that man has an immortal soul.
Only those that believed will be given bodies that permit them to again live. The rest will spend eternity as spirits without life or bodies, in tourment.
Where do you read this in scripture? That man exists as spirit without a body?
Soul and spirit are not the same thing.
I’ve given enough scripture, but you insist on twisting it’s meaning.
You do realize that the bodies of most of the dead are long gone, do you not?
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