Controversial DNA scientist retires (DNA linked to IQ and race flap)

AP via Yahoo! News ^ | Thu Oct 25, 10:06 AM ET | AP

[ECM]

James Watson, the Nobel laureate who sparked an international furor last week with comments about intelligence levels among blacks, has retired from his post at a prestigious research institution. ADVERTISEMENT

Watson, 79, and the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in New York announced his departure Thursday. Watson was chancellor of the institution, and his retirement was effective immediately.

[chaos_5]

James Watson, the Nobel laureate who sparked an international furor last week with comments about intelligence levels among blacks, has retired from his post at a prestigious research institution.

Is it true? I don't know. But, it seems like another case of someone who makes a non PC statement that gets forced out of their job. Imus comes to mind, and that professor that made the comments about women and math and science.

I just think that if he was to make a claim like that, there would be a body of evidence to support it, and it could perhaps be proved false. I think it would be more productive to prove him wrong than force him out.

Then again, he is old and maybe he did just retire.

[Walkingfeather]

as I recall he or crick have pointed this out in previous studies. He and his partner are the discoverers of DNA so my bet is he is well informed but not a PC scientist.

[umgud]

I think it would be more productive to prove him wrong than force him out.

Trust me, it's easier to force him out. PC police don't need evidence or facts.

[swmobuffalo]

“Is it true? I don’t know.”

It’s not.

[Williams]

I would defend his right to point to valid statistics. BUT it seems to me he went way outside the bounds of scientific measures of intelligence, and of his own scientific expertise.

He stated that aid to Africa won't work because Africans are not of equal intelligence to Europeans. I doubt he has any scientific proof that a difference in average intelligence will prevent a country from utilizing aid, developing its economy, etc.

Second, he said that anyone who has black employees knows about this intellectual disparity. He certainly can't know that and his own limited personal experience would not be scientific.

[Seruzawa]

Savage has been talking about it the last few days. Someone should inform ol’ Michael that the “facts” that “prove” that blacks are “less intelligent” than whites also prove that whites are “less intelligent” than Asians. So maybe the whiteboys should just STFU.

Intelligence testing is fraught with error and should never be taken too seriously. There are plenty of “high IQ” people who can’t master driving a car.

[Smogger]

He’s a dinosaur. What makes black people “black?” or white people “white?” One letter in 3.1 billion letters of DNA? Race is a social construct.

[Smogger]

We better ask an Asian what they think ;-) My Calculus class is filled with them (but most are women), there are maybe two whites, two mexican’s, and myself. Everyone else Asian. PROOF that Asians are the smartest!

[Just mythoughts]

The man obviously forgot he was not suppose to enlighten the world as to what that TOE theory really means. I think he should have at least put up a fight to keep his job, how totally unPC of his employers.

[billorites]

"Second, he said that anyone who has black employees knows about this intellectual disparity. He certainly can't know that and his own limited personal experience would not be scientific."

And therein lies the chink in his argument.

[chaos_5]

Scientists would have us believe that something like sexual orientation is genetic, why not intelligence?

What I find hard with this, besides the uber un PC nature of the topic, is I personally know of black people who are extremely intelligent, and conversely whites who are as dumb as a brick.

I don't think it is impossible that some statistical mean may place one group of people as more intelligent than another. It’s a stretch though. It seems like you would have to have pinpointed the gens that make intelligence and then be able to prove that one race has more of them than the other.

I still think intelligence can be genetic, but it useless without education and a cultural emphases on education.

[Wonder Warthog]

"Race is a social construct."

Try telling that to those who suffer from sickle-cell anemia.

[EDINVA]

the Cold Springs Harbor Inst was founded in the heyday of eugenics

[chaos_5]

I think such disparities are proof that a cultural emphasis on education makes a difference.

[Radix]

Watson and Crick was also (are also) considered to be anti feminists as they were complacent in the denial of Rosalind Franklin’s contributions to their Prize winning DNA work.

[chaos_5]

Try telling that to those who suffer from sickle-cell anemia.

I remember reading that sickle cell anemia improved ones survivability of malaria. A trait that would be very beneficial in Africa. I should try and find a source for that.

k, found it =o)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/01/2/l_012_02.html

[Just mythoughts]

the Cold Springs Harbor Inst was founded in the heyday of eugenics

Hmmm who funds them, do you know? Are they recipients of taxpayer dollars?

[Seruzawa]

“I still think intelligence can be genetic, but it useless without education and a cultural emphases on education.”

Heh heh. Another theory that has been entirely disproven is the theory that intelligence is related to brain size. Einstein ha a smaller than average brain. That one fact completely invalidates the theory permanently. Yet you still see supposed “authorities” spewing the same bilge. I have a feeling that genetics will ultimately prove to be entirely irrelevant when it comes to actual intelligence. Especially since intelligence testing is basically just a test of how well someone can learn to pass tests.

That and the fact that MENSA seems to be the biggest collection of idiots you could ever find.

[chaos_5]

That and the fact that MENSA seems to be the biggest collection of idiots you could ever find.

LOL, you have a good point there.

[ari-freedom]

But, it seems like another case of someone who makes a non PC statement that gets forced out of their job.

-

more like someone who made a non scientific statement to me. “Just shut up and do science!”

[Williams]

Your thinking on this is correct, and in line with Abraham Lincoln's thoughts on racial differences (if they exist). Lincoln reasoned that if blacks could be enslaved because they are believed to be (on average) less intelligent, then likewise all less intelligent whites should be enslaved.

In America, because blacks are a minority, you will always have MORE whites displaying any negative attribute - dumber, poorer, whatever. I remember a very dear uncle of mine (white) who was dumb as a stump. I doubt I have met many black people dumber than him in a lifetime, but that didn't stop him from having a family, job, etc.

Whether or not statistical differences exist, they are not a sound basis for policy.

And, there are few "pure blooded" blacks or whites of any specific nationality left. I can't imagine the validity of just comparing "whites" to "blacks".

[Aliska]

Years and years ago, I read a study, I know, I should have a source, and Asians were at the top. Guess it isn't pc to say how the rest stacked up. Sometimes race and ethnicity gets blurred.

I've thought about it a lot, and I think early nurturing and parental encouragement at home is a big factor but doesn't account for it all.

Some people of all races, ethnicities, whatever, just seem to have been born exceptionally bright. I'm sure genes play a big factor. Two highly intelligent parents usually result in highly intelligent children. But not always.

[hinckley buzzard]

IQ data presented as group data are averages and only make sense as population statistics. The highest ethnic group in terms of IQ is Ashkenazi Jews. Asians and Caucasians next within the margin of error of each other, and the rest are also-rans. That is scientific fact. It is also of minimal usefulness in looking at any given individual, since all the distributions overlap.

There is no question whatsoever that as a group, Blacks in America, or Africa, or both, score significantly below Caucasians, as a group. The data is a tsunami which no informed sane person can deny. What the data does not tell is why. For that you need to look at a wider spectrum of research; most PC bigots and virtually all media scum refuse to do this.

[Williams]

I’ve heard black sport figures on sports radio shows (which I view as much more accurate than a news show)saying that smart black kids have to hide the fact they are smart, or they will be attacked for “acting white”. What possible chance is there for a group to get ahead, if their culture requires them to hide signs of intelligence? Imagine the impetus there against studying, scoring well, etc.

[chaos_5]

black kids have to hide the fact they are smart, or they will be attacked for “acting white”.

That is a very serious problem. What could reasonably be done to correct that cultural problem?

[hinckley buzzard]

Intelligence testing is fraught with error and should never be taken too seriously. There are plenty of “high IQ” people who can’t master driving a car

These two sentences are empirically false. Intelligence testing is highly reliable and valid and has powerful predictive value. There is no known example of a "high IQ" person unable to master driving a car.

Someone calling him-her-itself "seruzawa" is debasing this forum by posting deliberate lies. Please put up the data (Not unsubstantiated uninformed opinions, but data) or cut the crap..

[Williams]

Maybe true, but there is no reason a group of less average intelligence cannot thrive. In America, there must be more "dumb" whites than blacks. And certainly all whites do not thrive in society. But there is no reason a minority group has to have more crime, unemployment, etc. Those are cultural phenomena.

Also, when you say "Asians" "Caucasions" and "Blacks". I couldn't list here how many different ethnicities fall within those groups. Are Albanians equal to Swedes? Koreans to Inuit? And there is so much intermingling. I have 5 ethnicities and if I think about the different peoples that historically intermingled within just one of those, my head spins.

[hinckley buzzard]

I don't think it is impossible that some statistical mean may place one group of people as more intelligent than another. It’s a stretch though.

Far from being impossible, or a stretch, it is impossible to acquaint oneself with the research and not know that group means differ. The only refuge of the PC Lysenko-ist, in the end, is the destruction of the scientific enterprise and the darkness of postmodern ignorance.

[Williams]

You asked what could be done to combat a black culture in which smart kids are accused of “acting white”? You tell me, when Jesse Jackson recently made exactly that comment about a black presidential candidate.

[Williams]

Can you post some statistics? I’d be very interested in seeing the degree of statistical difference you believe has been found.

[ari-freedom]

I remember reading that sickle cell anemia improved ones survivability of malaria.
-
sickle cell anemia is represented by the S allele. But there is another genotype CC that also offers malarial resistance and no anemia. Paradoxically, CC is actually eliminated from the population even though it is better than any other genotype (AA, AS, SS, AC, SC).

[chaos_5]

I don't know. I was hoping you or someone else had some ideas.

[chaos_5]

I have no idea what you just said, LOL, but OK. =o)

[ari-freedom]

I’ve heard black sport figures on sports radio shows (which I view as much more accurate than a news show)saying that smart black kids have to hide the fact they are smart, or they will be attacked for “acting white”.

---

and when whites see other smart whites they call them nerds and geeks

[Radix]

"I remember reading that sickle cell anemia improved ones survivability of malaria."

Those afflicted with Sickle Cell Anemia are in fact immune to Malaria.

Great evidence for the Darwinist religious zealots. A disease that kills people is proof of survival of the fittest.

[ari-freedom]

it means that sickle cell anemia is not superior genetics

[GAB-1955]

“He and his partner are the discoverers of DNA so my bet is he is well informed but not a PC scientist.”

He’s not a psychologist, and hasn’t even read the literature going back as far as Spearman’s work in 1927. His opinion was as accurate and valid as Charlie Sheen’s criticism of George Bush.

[Williams]

Hey, I agree with you. We have plenty of whites who would rather swig beer and “party” than display intelligence. But I don’t think it’s as prevalent or as severe in terms of pressuring kids to do poorly in school.

[hinckley buzzard]

The group data are based largely on self-identified ethnicities. I don't use the term "race" because it introduces error needlessly. Ethnic groups can be defined operationally. When they are, without regard for "genetics", the data hold. Go figger. I never said it was genetics alone, nor would most current researchers. But to deny a genetic factor, or to deny the reality of a measurable construct called "intelligence," is insanity.

I have 5 ethnicities and if I think about the different peoples that historically intermingled within just one of those, my head spins.

Pick one. That is likely the group you identify with the most, and the data set that will be most useful if you should ever want to know how you stack up intellectually. Incidentally, someone should assert that "intelligence" is a cognitive attribute, not a moral virtue. being 'smart' does not mean one is 'good'. The liberals seem always to be confused about this. We conservatives should be more clear than they.

[ari-freedom]

Yes, it’s called public school. :) It’s called whole language and constructivist math. And those are for the well funded middle class schools that don’t worry about metal detectors.

[chaos_5]

and when whites see other smart whites they call them nerds and geeks

But, unlike the aforementioned "acting white" being called a nerd or a geek doesn't have nearly the same social stigma. Think about Best Buys "Geek Squad". It's just not that insulting to call someone a nerd or a geek, especially if that person really is smart.

[chaos_5]

OK, I see. Thanks.

[BikerJoe]

Another theory that has been entirely disproven is the theory that intelligence is related to brain size. Einstein ha a smaller than average brain.

...Finally proving that it doesn't matter how big it is, just what you do with it.

[ari-freedom]

true but they are certainly not as embraced as they are in Asian and Jewish cultures. For example, many orthodox Jewish girl will do almost anything to marry the top learner. That’s the first thing they want to know before they will even consider dating. It’s very competitive.

[countess]

I really feel bad for James Watson. I’ve been in awe of him since Organic Chem 201. I suspect he knows that history will be kinder to him than the current cabal.

[puroresu]

I thought you admitted last night that there was a consensus in psychology that intelligence was roughly 50% hereditary.

[billorites]

adenine <- -> thymine

cytosine <- -> guanine

watson <- -> asinine

[ChiMark]

Data is what it says. As a population which is so small, the european Jews are great acievers
dominant in many areas of academia, literature entertainment and business.

As a people the Jews had more than their share of discrimination and persecution
throughout history. This has not prevented them from
achieving.

Once you begin to mention intelligence the PC crowd
cries racism. Why? Anyone with a sub average I.Q. is
not going to become a scientist. Anyone with less than a 110 probably will not get through engineering school.
However a higher I.Q. does nor define one’s
character.

More important to me are the defining characteristics
such as values. Moral and ethical beliefs shape a
good citizen a good human being.

[chaos_5]

True.
I suppose it’s a good thing that I was a social outcast then. And, attending a 90% Jewish private school didn't hurt either. It’s a pity the money ran out and I had to go to public high school.

LOL
It's taken years to recover from the damage that did.