Can we, together, lift one village out of the Middle Ages?

The Guardian ^ | October 20th 2007 | Alan Rusbridger

[Cardhu]

Can we, together, lift one village out of the Middle Ages?

Launching an ambitious Guardian aid experiment, Alan Rusbridger travels a few hours from London - and 700 years back in time

• 
• • Alan Rusbridger
  • The Guardian
  • Saturday October 20 2007

With the right flight connections, a journey from the 21st century to the 14th century can take just over 12 hours. It begins in the hot, crowded duty-free hell of Heathrow's terminal 3 and ends - through the bushes down a snaking mud track - by the marshes under a cloudless blue African sky.

In front of us five women are doing what the women in these parts have done for thousands of years - fetching the water for evening cooking and washing. Dressed in luminous greens and pinks, they return with their heavy yellow cans and hoist them on their heads for the long trail back to their huts.

A few minutes later we're in an African village straight from the pages of childhood story books. Half a dozen mud and grass-thatched houses circle an ever-changing cast of clucking hens, goats and children. There is no sound apart from the chickens and chatter of voices, young and old.

[Cardhu]

An interesting experiment...

[xcamel]

white guilt strikes again - and these “experiments” never turn out to improve anything...

[vetsvette]

“An interesting experiment...”

The problem is that these are human beings, not chimpanzees’s.

[Cardhu]

I think you may be right but it will be interesting to watch the experiment over the years to see if they can give them the means to lift themselves up and not just go in and give them everything. Three years is such a short time for something like this.

Of course, if they are in any way successful the Ugandan Government will come in an steal everything anyway.

[Veronica Mars]

White guilt? How about some basic human compassion? That seems to be the motivation here. When we can turn a blind eye to the suffering of others, what have we become?

[Lurker]

Prediction:

Africa will win again.

L

[Veronica Mars]

Africa will win again.

Africa will win what again?

[Cardhu]

That is true,but malaria has to be eradicated there first and then some sort of real education provided.

But I am afraid they will interfere too much and not let it come from the bottom up.

In any event, even if they fail they will be better off than in their current situation.

[Lurker]

Africa will win what again?

Africa will win against all the idiot Western do gooders just as it has every single time someone has tried to 'lift then from the 14th Century' for the last 400 years.

Africa is the way it is because of Africans, not because Westerners haven't 'done enough' to help.

L

[xcamel]

The Peace Corps spread basic human compassion - and 30 years later, every country they were in turned into genocidal war torn corrupt radical extremist hellholes - worse than they ever would have been if we had just left them alone. Call be back in 5 years when they’re done - you see, they only want to be judged by their intentions - not the results - or the cost in disrupted human lives.

[Jeff Head]

Who says they are all suffering? I spent a good deal of time in India and saw poverty untold. There is not enough money in all of the west to lift the billions in Asia and the sub-continent, and Africa to our level of technology and purchasing, etc.

They have to do it themselves...perhaps we can help if we do so wisely and with true compassion (the type that teaches a person how to fish instead of giving them the fish). But I also saw something else...many of these people who were so impoversihed were, nonetheless happy.

Sometimes they do not know or care how bad they have it until someone full of themselves goes in there to tells them how "terrible" it is. Then, most off, they simply trade one set of problems they are prepared to deal with, and used to dealing with, for another set which they are not prepared to deal with.

Just my opinion...but one based on travels to some of those parts of the world.

[Jeff Head]

Amen..see my post 11. Same page bro.

[Veronica Mars]

Who says they are all suffering?

Well I think people that do not have access to clean drinking water are suffering, what do you think?

From the article: The swamps are host to malaria, bilharzia and jigger worms, which burrow into human skin and can cause secondary infections, including tetanus and gangrene. Joyce confesses she is too tired - and, anyway, doesn't have enough time in her day - to boil the water before her children drink and wash in it. I could only find evidence of one, hole-ridden, malaria net.

[PAR35]

An interesting experiment...

Sort of a reverse of the Zimbabwe experiment to take a 20th century culture back to the dark ages.

[Eagles6]

"It is a troubling question that niggles away throughout our visit. Obvious racism, the dreaded 'n' word.

"very probably the result of climate change caused by the affluent other world of which Joyce has no knowledge or conception."Oh please!

[Veronica Mars]

Africa is the way it is because of Africans, not because Westerners haven't 'done enough' to help.

I don't much care in assigning blame. If people are suffering from lack of the basic elements of human survival (food, water, etc), I think we have an obligation to help them.

[xcamel]

You can blame that on the nanny-state liberals who demanded the ban of DDT worldwide, and proximately caused the unnecessary deaths of 10-15 million people

[Brilliant]

Is this the village that Hillary wants to raise your kid?

[socialismisinsidious]

Love the editorializing....the flooding is b/c of global warming (of course) and the kids struggled with "aimless lessons in creationism".

I do believe that people have the ability to lift themselves out of poverty and make life better, but what this author does not mention, conveniently leaves out, is the religion behind much of the violence in Africa....Also, even if these people do lift themselves out of poverty how long before the corrupt governments and warlords destroy?

[Jeff Head]

Those folks have been living there for centuries...I found in many cases that their tolerance to things such as this, because of their long time subjection to it, was much higher than our own.

Anyhow, the woman chooses to NOT boil her water. That is her choice just like so many here who choose not to take good care of their children. It is sad...but it is not relegated to the hovels of Africa and the 14th centtury.

It’s called human nature...and sadly people make bad choices.

No amount of humanitarian care, billions of riches, feel good mushy thinking by Peace Corps volunteers is going to change that. The only thing that will is for those people to CHOOSE to lift themselves up. We may be able to help to educate them to do so...but we cannot make alll of their choices for them or empty our coffers throwing money at it.

[Jeff Head]

Amen.

[CaptainK]

Back to that niggling question: why intervene? On one level it is a simple question. Here are people within our reach and knowledge whose lives are quite brutally shortened by preventable disease, hunger and ignorance.

They are people with virtually no earthly possessions and no carbon footprint, whose lives are likely to be made harder still by the climate change caused by people infinitely richer in belongings and education. To do nothing is, on this level, unthinkable.

He lost me right here.

So his solution is to bring the village up to 21st century standards, thus establishing a carbon footprint hastening the cataclysm of global warming? Or was he planning to do all this without electricity or carbon emissions?

[xcamel]

Hello?? People have survived in roughly that location for 1.2 million years....maybe longer.

[Cardhu]

That part was typical Guardian agiprop. But at least it would be interesting to see how one could go about this thinking outside the box and make it sustainable.

[Jeff Head]

By all means then, spend your money and your time helping them. Just don't try and force me and mine to help them on your terms at the point of a gun (because that's what government programs ultimately boil down to).

See, that's the problems with so many liberals and so-called "compassionate conservatives". They want to force all of us to be compassionate on their terms.

Me and mine will choose to help out of our charitable compassion in the way we best see fit...you do the same.

[Veronica Mars]

The Peace Corps spread basic human compassion - and 30 years later, every country they were in turned into genocidal war torn corrupt radical extremist hellholes - worse than they ever would have been if we had just left them alone.

This statement is completely wrong. Let me list just a few of the countries the Peace Corps has been in and you can tell me about how they have been turned into corrupt extremist hellholes and you can tell me about the genocidal wars that have gone on there since the Peace Corps rolled in.

Antigua, Argentina, Barbados, Belize, Brazil, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Fiji, Honduras, Jamaica, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Mauritania, Nepal, Peru, Poland, and so forth.

Obviously, this list of countries shows your statement to be blatantly false.

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

I saw the same thing in South and Central America, Mexico, Africa and most of the other third worlds countries!

I would fly into the major city (it had most creature comforts) and get some way to the boondocks (fly over country), there I would spent at least a few days after the problem was solved. Most of the natives we hired as labor were apathetic.

[BfloGuy]

But I am afraid they will interfere too much and not let it come from the bottom up.

My impression exactly. Providing the infrastructure for fresh water and electricity as well as eradicating malaria would be god-sends for these people. I'm suspicious, though, that the left-wing Guardianistas won't be able to satisfy themselves with those pedestrian goals.

[Eagles6]

Making it sustainable can only come from the people themselves. Hatred and violence are the only constants in Africa unfortunately.

[Veronica Mars]

OK, where in anything I have written did I ever say anything about forcing you to spend your money or time on anything at the point of a gun?

[Nevermore]

"Can we..."

The first question that should be asked is, "Do they want to be...?" I can well imagine some "primitive" peoples would just as soon live in the Middle Ages - shorter life, and all - if the "civilized" world would just leave them alone (i.e., not use them as pawns and their lands for a battlefield).
Can't say that I know that to be the case, just that it is the height of snooty elitism to assume that they want to live our kind of life.

[xcamel]

You dear, were talking about Africa, and 12 of those countries you listed are A) not in Africa; and B) experienced at least one of the items I mentioned in the last thirty years. Those who don't know or don't remember history, are doomed to repeat it.

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

I saw several groups of the peace (piece) corps in my travels and all were druggies who were there for the easy access to drugs and sex with the natives.

[Veronica Mars]

No, you made a silly blanket statement about the efficacy of the Peace Corps. Obviously you can’t support the statement and are now changing the subject.

[socialismisinsidious]

We may be able to help to educate them to do so...but we cannot make alll of their choices for them or empty our coffers throwing money at it.

Exactly and that is true of the poor world wide, including here. And in response to your other post: it is amazing how many people think that poverty, not poor choices, bad parenting, tyrannical leaders etc..is what makes people unhappy. I guess believing that then gives them an "easy" solution: throw money.

[Cardhu]

Is this the village that Hillary wants to raise your kid?

My kid is probably much older than you judging from that remark which has nothing at all do with the do the subject.

[Veronica Mars]

I guess believing that then gives them an "easy" solution: throw money.

Keep your money, but how about throwing some clean drinking water at these people?

[xcamel]

My statement is supported by facts and history just fine, it is you, the worm, that is now squirming.

[goldstategop]

I was moved. People in the Third World love their families, friends and neighbors. In a hardscrabble world, knowing the people around you can literally mean the difference between life and death. They would like to spend more time talking to the people they know. Making life easier for them means building on the kind of networks that strengthen people there and giving them the tools to succeed on their own instead of coming in and telling them what is best for them.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

[Veronica Mars]

My statement is supported by facts and history just fine, it is you, the worm, that is now squirming.

Then I will patiently wait in front of my computer while you tell me how each of the countries I listed is now a corrupt extremist hellhole and you tell me about the genocide that occured in each country after the Peace Corps visited.

I patiently await your response.

[goldstategop]

The article makes the good point - a top down model will fail. Socialism doesn't work. If I want help - don't take care of me. Give me the wherewithal to take care of myself and my family. Give me tools, information and resources to make my life easier but let me decide how best to use them. The only way African societies are going to be made better is the people living in them who decide they want a better life and not outsiders who presume to know what life they should have.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

You must have traveled to many more countries than my self to have such wide knowledge of the areas you mentioned.

I saw no sign of the peace corps in my travels to East Europe.
They had USAID which at least under Clinton was as corrupt as any UN bureau.

[Veronica Mars]

Howdy, thanks for the comment. My source for the small sampling of countries I listed was the Peace Corps Online website. They have a nice list of all the countries in which the Peace Corps has served.

[socialismisinsidious]

Except it doesn't work out that way...corrupt officials, a corrupt UN, warlords, corrupt organizations...take my money (check out how much of American tax dollars is given in aid) and the people are never given clean water. Rice comes off the ships into the hands of war lords while corrupt officials line their pockets and look the other way...remember "oil for food"? Change needs to start with the people..a very difficult thing especially when they are starving, but that is the reality.

[Jeff Head]

I never said you did. But if you advocate a government program to spread your compassion, instead of you doing it yourself, or donating to a private concern...then you are precisely advocating that I must then be forced to do so at the point of a gunn.

[xcamel]

Don’t bother - she’s not going to listen... Peace corps, USAID, UN programs, and countless (liberal based) NGO’s that we were so kind to send to all the places that have since erupted into “modern hell holes” after they drugged, raped, and corrupted their way across them...

[Veronica Mars]

I hear what you’re saying, but, again, I haven’t said any of that. Thanks for the comments, I’ve enjoyed this thread.

[Veronica Mars]

Don’t bother - she’s not going to listen... Peace corps, USAID, UN programs, and countless (liberal based) NGO’s that we were so kind to send to all the places that have since erupted into “modern hell holes” after they drugged, raped, and corrupted their way across them...

There you go again. My friend, you have a big problem with painting with too broad a brush. It's what got you into trouble in the first place. First you state that EVERY country the Peace Corps has been in has become a corrupt extremist hellhole and has hosted genocide. And now you lump EVERY "liberal" NGO, USAID, UN Program, and the Peace Corps into the same boat.

Please turn down the hyperbole switch on your computer, this is just too much to believe.

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

ROFLMAO

I like my information first hand not from some socialist web site patting themselves on the back.

[Issaquahking]

I think we have an obligation to help them...

Politicians hear you, and pass laws that take money out of our pockets to be spent foolishly with outfits like the U.N. Individuals will do more than any politician could ever dream of...Case in point, take Jewel for example in in her charity work. She chose to do something, because she can, not at the prodding of a government!

OK, where in anything I have written did I ever say anything about forcing you to spend your money or time on anything at the point of a gun?

I worked with Jeff on a project, and can tell you, that he has seen the ugly side of government, waving force in an way. But Jeff is as solid as they come, and his efforts to make America a better place, make me proud to stand with him in the past, and wouldn't surprise me, to stand with him again in the future.