Blackbriar?
Posted on 09/19/2007 10:50:31 AM PDT by presidio9
During a telephone conversation on Monday night, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Iraq Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki agreed that U.S. diplomats must be free to travel around Iraq, but how they will do that is now a point of contention. The U.S. embassy in Baghdad relies heavily on Blackwater security to guard its personnel as they visit government ministries and other sites around Iraq. American diplomats have not been able to travel outside the Green Zone since Iraq suspended Blackwater's license following a firefight Sunday that resulted in the deaths of at least eight Iraqi civilians. "We're there to strengthen the capacity of the Iraqi Government. We're not able to do that all in the Green Zone," Rice said she told Maliki in the conversation. And, she said, he agreed.
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Rice told the press traveling with her on a Mideast mission that the U.S. Deputy Chief of Mission in Baghdad met with Maliki's office on Tuesday and the two governments are negotiating a way for the embassy to operate safely and allay Iraq's concerns about what it says is a pattern of excessive use of force by Blackwater. The State Department confirmed Wednesday that the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad has stopped all ground movement of American diplomats throughout Iraq outside the Green Zone. "They are working toward mechanisms that might allow us to address these issues together," Rice said during an overnight flight to Jerusalem where she is meeting with Israeli and Palestinian leaders in the run-up to a possible November summit.
But Maliki offered his own solution on Wednesday, recommending that the U.S. embassy in Baghdad change the company it uses to provide security. "This crime has generated a lot of hatred in the government and the people against Blackwater," Maliki told reporters. "For their own interests, the Americans should hire a new company to protect their people so they can move freely." The Iraqi premier also ordered a full investigation into Sunday's fire fight. Yesterday, Iraq's Ministry of the Interior released an account of the incident that differed substantially from the official U.S. report. The ministry said that Blackwater initiated the firefight, killing as many as 20
The article is from TIME.
Sure. Send in the Whitewater folks. They will draw the fire away from the good guys.
There's an entire agency devoted to protecting the Diplomatic Corps. Why is a private contractor needed?
L
Iraq, not so much
What crime!!? What's he talking about? Bad guys ambushed motorcade. Good guys shot back. Some of the injured and killed may or may not have been civilians caught in the middle of a firefight.
Blackwater has a contract to defend Embassy personnel around the world now. They pretty much are DSS now.
Someone needs to explain to me how we can get the capital under control, and then need to destroy Blackwater’s capability to move about.
It’s easy enough to explain that the Blackwater group came under fire and returned it. So what gives here?
Is this evidence of ‘failure of leadership’ in the theater or from back in the U.S.?
Good grief. Buck up folks. Get Blackwater back in the game and let’s start moving ahead here.
I cannot live without Blackwater. They currently fly my mail in to my site here in Afghanistan.
A long time ago after somebody read Atlas Shrugged it was noticed that the gov't was doing many things that the private sector could do more efficiently. This led by a leap of logic to the gov't contracting out services rather than having gov't employees do those services. This is how gov't has kept its number of employees down while taking an ever larger chunk of the national product. This won't be a question in the college Civics test.
Ex Special Ops Guys have to work somewhere.
PING, per yesterday’s discussion on Blackwater.
Unfortunately, Al Maliki, I don't think there is another company with Blackwater's resources and capabilities.
? So is Maliki just saying he wants to see a different DBA/TIN on the license? That’s easy enough.
Blackwater leaves, and Maliki’s life expectancy decreases proportionally in my opinion.
I’m not sure if thats a good thing, or a bad thing.
They (The DSS) are not equipped to deal with something of this magnitude.
Rather than expanding a government agency, they’ve tapped a viable resource (Blackwater) that already performs that mission for private industry and government in Iraq.
Blackwater has assets that the DSS would have to pull from The Army (helos, armor, etc.). Also, DSS is more organized around “Executive Protection” and Iraq is far beyond that. A quasi-military agency (easy, I just don’t have a better term) like Blackwater is much more suited to the theater in Iraq.
The former government/military folks have been signing on with Blackwater and other private security outfits for multiples of two, three or more of their Government pay.
Some are entering such private-sector activities as bail fugitive recovery, which (not frequently) can be quite lucrative.
The bad news is that the skills these follks bring to the industry represents overkill (no pun intended) and they seldom bother to obtain professional training from the one or possibly two credible organizations that provide same, and they do not even bother with such inconveniences as state laws concerning licensure/registration, lawful bail (re)arrests, transport, etc., and often lack the social skills necessary in dealing with bail bondsmen and other recovery agents.
I generally chose to not become associated with guys who show up in cammies and whose introductions are replete with claims concerning their martial arts and weaponry prowess.
That said, some the veterans who do bother to enter the profession via proper training and mentoring often turn out to be excellent agents. Indeed, they come in handy re: skips who initiate foot chases or unnecessary know-down/drag-outs during what generally are arrests without incident or injury....
enough said
For the same reason private contractors have been used in any number of security-related roles in foreign countries . . . so they can operate "under the radar" without being subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
State has been the main problem for many years. You’ve mostly got a buch of crusty old Libs over there that don’t share any of your world views. All but a very few at the top, remain in place administration after administration.
That’s why you’ll never see State leading the conservative effort. NEVER!
Maddie, Powell, now Condoleza... Diplomacy is their only trade. If you’ve got problems with the Palestinians, you open up a dialogue. And then you dialogue for decades as that group continues to kill indescriminantly.
At State, if you’ve got a dialogue going, you’ve solved the problem.
Clinton and Carter were state oriented animals. Bush Sr. was one as well IMO, but his hand was forced in Iraq.
Reagan basicly told State to go F itself. I believe Bush has also to an extent. Still, he’s been much too willing to take Israel to task for not giving in to the Palestinians on issue after issue, so I can’t say he hasn’t been a state animal as well.
I use Israel as an example in this context, because it’s so demonstrative of what is going on elsewhere in the background.
Why the hell did the U.S. government insist on spending several hundred million dollars to build an embassy and establish a "permanent" diplomatic presence in a dangerous, unsecure f#%&ing war zone in the first place?
Really. What do you know about them? Do you know any more than you've read in the newspapers? They wouldnt' be the first government contractor that didn't do things right, so I'm not sure why we should simply assume they do good work. Maybe they do, but do you simply assume that everything the government or its contractors do is automatically quality work, and that critics are automatically to be dismissed? What about the DMV?
Not a whole lot one way or the other. That's why I don't have a problem with them.
Do you have any evidence to present that might sway my thinking one way or the other? Or are you just making some gratuitous slap government contractors?
What about the DMV?
I wasn't aware they were a Federal Agency.
L
Iraq can. And so can the Americans in Iraq.
No, but I don't automatically assume that critics of the government, or its contractors, are wrong. When you say "I have no problem" with some government agency that's under criticism, that implies to me that you're dismissing the critics automatically. And the fact the DMV isn't federal doesn't make a differenc in my book. Government is government. Like the Founding Fathers - and like Reagan (whose First Inaugural Address said, "government is problem, not the solution) - I'm suspicious of government and I don't give government the benefit of the doubt. I want its performance to be proved, checked and double-checked, and when people criticize I don't assume that they're wrong and government is right. Did you assume that Janet Reno's Justice Department was always right and her critics always wrong? The fact that government is run by Republicans doesn't mean it isn't still government, with the same lack of incentives and accountability. Blackwater may be a great organization that makes few mistakes. But as with all government, or government contracting operations, I wont' dismiss critics without giving them a hearing.
Wow! I can’t wait to hear the real scoop on this, if you’re ever able to share it with us.
Plenty. And it's not pretty.
It had to be done.
People (not just diplomats) have to be able to live and work in a secure area. They can’t commute from Kuwait.
Those people have to be on-site to help transform Iraq into a functioning government or what passes for it in the Middle East.
I think it’s because the Democrates are trying to nitpick the State Department to death, including from within. Look at this article, Waxman and his hatchet men are going after the State Department Security for not trying hard enough to disrupt our war effort:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/18/AR2007091800799.html
They are attacking on all fronts, and won’t stop until we vote them out.
I’ve got a few friends who’ve told me similar things about “contractors”.
The problem is, Blackwater is one of the best trained and equipped PMCs in the world, not just in Iraq. Helos, armor, insanely cool training facilities throughout the US.
Other PMCs (smaller companies supporting private industry) aren’t so well-trained, equipped and, most importantly, controlled. There’s a huge disparity between Blackwater and the smaller operations.
Why? Dept State Sec Pers. will not shoot at terrorists dressed as civilians.Blackwater will and did.
We should make it clear, that if Blackwater goes, so does the US Army and the USMC. Lets see what Maliki thinks about that. We can’t do without Blackwater in Iraq. It would take another entire division of the Army (which doesen’t train in the specialized skills that Blackwater agents have) to replace them. This is BS.
Well, OK. But wouldn't it seem obvious that the establishment of domestic (i.e., IRAQI) security forces should be done before anything else (including simple relief efforts in unsecured areas)?
Isn't that what our aversion to silly, stupid "nation-building" is all about?
I've only been in Iraq nearly four years and have been in charge of awarding security contracts on some Air Force projects on one of my past missions. I and my military and civilian co-workers have only been negatively and dangerously impacted by Blackwater's antics a few times.
You've got me good, though. What do I know?
Yes, WE can.
Blackbriar?
While I don’t have firsthand knowledge, your comments make sense to me. I don’t like this one bit.
Neither do I.
When you say "I have no problem" with some government agency that's under criticism,
Blackwater isn't a Government Agency.
that implies to me
I'm not responsible for your inferences. Suffice it to say your inference is incorrect. I meant I didn't have enough facts to sway my thinking one way or the other. Since you've admitted that you don't either there's very little point in continuing our conversation. Your rudeness certainly doesn't leave me longing for any reason to carry it on, either.
And the fact the DMV isn't federal doesn't make a differenc in my book.
Then you need to bone up on the Constitution.
L
I don’t see where I contradicted you?
I was agreeing with you, while making that larger point that Blackwater isn’t even regarded as the worst of the agrressors.
My college roommate had his HMMWV shot up by BW personnel on two separate occasions. He certainly agrees with your sentiments.
Ahh someone with some actual facts about Blackwaters performance over there. You're someone whose opinion is worth listening to.
I'm inferring that you don't think they're very good and you aren't all that suprised by this turn of events. Would that be correct?
L
But Maliki offered his own solution on Wednesday, recommending that the U.S. embassy in Baghdad change the company it uses to provide security. "This crime has generated a lot of hatred in the government and the people against Blackwater," Maliki told reporters. "For their own interests, the Americans should hire a new company to protect their people so they can move freely."
I’ll give you this, if Blackwater alone is the only blacklisted private security company we can continue. The principle of the matter is, Maliki is not in a position to be making these type of edicts.
The only way this won’t have a severe impact is if all the Blackwater agents transfer to Aegis or Triple Canopy or other similar firms. Just what in the hell do the folks relying on Blackwater do in the mean time? Seriously. Stop making convoy runs? Sit in their walled compounds and wait for new contract negotiations and personnel to be replaced. Of course not. Blackwater agents are still operating in Iraq and will continue to do so. There isn’t another option for those relying on Blackwater for security at the immediate moment.
I noticed in your pictures you appear to be escorted by private security. What if Maliki bans them? Will you still make the travels you need to make?
There are over 30,000 private security contractors in Iraq. That is well more than a division of trained personnel. If we go down the slippery slope of letting Maliki determine who and who can’t work in Iraq right now, that could spell serious trouble which translates into death. Since you are in country, I would be shocked if you disagree with this sentiment.
Me too.
Note to self - in future read whole thread before posting.
The US should be standing by them. They did there job, no one under their protection died.
Certain people have set rules of engagement for military personnel to a level where the military is hardly able to protect itself. Those same people want to flit about in Iraq but aren’t willing to have their “protectors” under military rules of engagement. The people who will miss Blackwater the most are those who don’t like the military.
I used to be. I'm embedded with the military now and go with their convoys.
The private security firms I have traveled with are not in danger of being evicted. You're going to have to trust me on this one because I cannot say much right now, but no other company has the history in Iraq that BW does. This is far from being the first or only high-profile incident they have been involved in here.
Even if they were justified in this particular incident (and the jury is still out on that), there have been too many others that were black-and-white, cut-and-dried.
The principle of the matter is, Maliki is not in a position to be making these type of edicts.
He is the Prime Minister of Iraq. Iraq is a sovereign nation. I rarely agree with Maliki, but I can sympathize with his reaction on this one.
There are over 30,000 private security contractors in Iraq. That is well more than a division of trained personnel. If we go down the slippery slope of letting Maliki determine who and who can’t work in Iraq right now, that could spell serious trouble which translates into death. Since you are in country, I would be shocked if you disagree with this sentiment.
You're putting a little spin on it. It is not the government of Iraq's intention to do a review of all PSCs in country at this time and make determinations as to who will stay and who will go. It is more of an "enough is enough" reaction on one company.
There are companies who can fill the void. And a 30 or 60-day emergency contract could be issued to hold until the award process is worked through. Several decent employees of Blackwater could probably transfer over, but there are a lot who need to go....who need to get out of this country.
As of now, though, there are signs that Maliki might relent. Might.
Sorry. I may have misunderstood. I thought you were extolling BW's virtues like so many on here seem to be doing.
If I needed to go down Route Irish (airport road), from the airport to central Baghdad, I would almost rather take a local Baghdad taxi before I'd get in one of BW's convoys.
Last I checked Maliki was still the legitimate elected Prime Minister of Iraq which as you correctly pointed out is a sovereign country.
Change "Maliki" to "Bush" and "Iraq" to "America" and I'll bet the fool who posted such silliness would have a different opinion.
I would be shocked if you disagree with this sentiment.
I'm not sure who posted this but I'm willing to shock him or her. Iraq has a legitimate government and it's their inherent right to decide who stays and who goes whether we like it or not.
L
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