Flat Tax Supporters Jeer Giuliani in Jacksonville

newsday.com ^ | 7/7/07 | RON WORD

[dragnet2]

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Republican presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani ran into a buzz saw of opposition Saturday when he explained his opposition to a flat federal income tax.

Giuliani addressed a group of about 500 people in a standing-room only crowd at a town hall meeting at the University of North Florida, answering questions on a variety of topics from Iraq and Iran to Social Security and his plan for tax cuts.

Several dozen people wearing white flat tax T-shirts and hats and carrying signs jeered when Giuliani, in response to a question, said he would not be in favor of a flat tax.

"I have to study it some more," the former New York City mayor said. "I don't think a flat tax is realistic change for America. Our economy is dependent upon the way our tax system operates."

[Texas_Jarhead]

"Our economy is dependent upon the way our tax system operates."

IMO the government is dependent, not the economy.

[NapkinUser]

New low for Giuliani?

[dragnet2]

"Our economy is dependent upon the way our tax system operates."

Economy?

He means the incomes of millions of government employees, their generous medical benefits and pensions are dependent upon our tax system.

[Silicon Cowboy]

That’s for danged sure

[GeorgiaDawg32]

yet every study you look at says there are billions and billions of $$ that go uncollected with our current system..flat tax, you pay when you buy, no gettin out of it..revenue would skyrocket..

[Rick_Michael]

If anything he should have said he’ll look into to the tax system and consider changes. The status quo system will die out with time,...

[dragnet2]

I think there is audio of this exchange on the web. We just heard the audio of this incident on the radio.

[bybybill]

The Fair Tax is supposedly revenue neutral so “Government” shouldn`t be effected. Its the accountants and lawyers and financial planners that don`t want change. You know, the folks that contribute so much to what is good about America.

[Reagan Man]

>>>>>"I don't think a flat tax is realistic change for America. Our economy is dependent upon the way our tax system operates."

Rooty Toot`s liberalism comes shining through... AGAIN!

"Man is not free unless government is limited.... as government expands, liberty contracts"

~~~ Ronald Reagan

[Man50D]

The income tax began essentially as a flat tax when it was enacted in 1913. The first tax ranged from merely 1% on the first $20,000 of taxable income and was only 7% on incomes above $500,000. In the beginning, hardly anyone had to file a tax return because the tax did not apply to the vast majority of America’s working citizens. For example, in 1939, 26 years after the Sixteenth Amendment was adopted, only 5% of the population, counting both taxpayers and their dependents, was required to file returns. Today, more than 80% of the population is under the income tax.

[Texas_Jarhead]

Good point.

[isthisnickcool]

If Rudy would have gone out after 9/11 and collected millions for those killed that day instead of himself I’d think he was worth looking at.

[Diana in Wisconsin]

“IMO the government is dependent, not the economy.”

Oh, you beat me! Any time more cash is freed up for the average consumer, the economy booms. Businesses are started, more people are hired into existing businesses, people spend it on luxury items, or (if they’re smart) invest it in their future buying into the stock market or buying a house, etc.

Rudy is as addicted to tax dollars as any politician. None of them are going to kill the goose that lays the Golden Egg day in and day out.

[bybybill]

People are missing the real story here, It`s not taxes, Rudy is a tax cutter after all, no, the real story is how well he is doing in the South.

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

"I have to study it some more," the former New York City mayor said. "I don't think a flat tax is realistic change for America. Our economy is dependent upon the way our tax system operates."

These are the railroad spikes in Giuliani's campaign coffin. Even moderate Republicans (and no, Giuliani's not a moderate) support some reform of the current convoluted tax mess.

Supporting a flat or consumption tax should be a no-brainer for a Republican presidential candidate.

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

Hey, didn't Tooty support a flat-tax when Forbes endorsed him?

LOL Rudy flip-flopped again!!

[Reagan Man]

Rooty Toot supports big govt liberalism, abortion rights, gun control, amnesty and global warming BS, among other leftwing issues. A lifetime supporter of liberal issues and liberal causes.

Giuliani is a phony Republican and has no idea what conservatrism stands for.

[Sherman Logan]

If you think there would be no tax evasion with a flat tax, you are seriously confused.

The numbers I’ve seen tossed around for a flat consumption tax are in the 20% to 30% range.

People today go to criminal lengths to avoid a 7% sales tax, what do you think they’d do to avoid a 25% sales tax?

[Reagan Man]

>>>>>>Hey, didn't Tooty support a flat-tax when Forbes endorsed him?

That is confusing. I think Rooty supported Forbes and his idea for a flat tax in 1996, or maybe it was in 2000. When Forbes came out for Rooty this year, Rooty said he didn't support the idea of a flat tax.

Flip... flop... FLIP!

[dragnet2]

Our economy is dependent upon the way our tax system operates."

These are the railroad spikes in Giuliani's campaign coffin.

I don't thing Americans are in any mood for the likes of this guy.

Supporting a flat or consumption tax should be a no-brainer for a Republican presidential candidate.

Everyone seems to agree. At least the middle class anyway.

How many years do these politicians need to look or study our tax system when they already know exactly what it's all about?

[GeorgiaDawg32]

I fail to see how one could avoid paying a flat tax that is embedded in the cost of an item when they go to the store to buy something..

[dragnet2]

Hey, didn't Tooty support a flat-tax when Forbes endorsed him?

From the archives. He said a flat tax wasn't for *him*.

Obviously the rest of us don't count.

Check the date

____________________________________________________________

POLITICS: THE MAYOR; No Endorsement, but Scorn for Flat Tax (Rudy Against the Flat Tax) The NY Times ^ | Published: March 4, 1996 | RANDY KENNEDY

Posted on 03/29/2007 7:12:48 AM

Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani criticized Steve Forbes's flat-tax plan yesterday, saying it would prove especially damaging to New York City and the state...

"The flat tax is not for me," he said,...

[Principled]

Are you guys talking about a flat income tax or a retail sales tax?

[Man50D]

I think Rooty supported Forbes and his idea for a flat tax in 1996, or maybe it was in 2000. When Forbes came out for Rooty this year, Rooty said he didn't support the idea of a flat tax.

Posted on 03/28/2007 9:10:22 PM PDT by FairOpinion

Rudolph W. Giuliani accepted the endorsement of Steve Forbes yesterday and embraced Mr. Forbes’s signature issue, saying he liked the idea of a flat tax — something Mr. Giuliani denounced when Mr. Forbes was running for president.

If there were no federal income tax, “maybe I’d suggest not doing it at all, but if we were going to do it, a flat tax would make a lot of sense,” Mr. Giuliani, who is seeking the Republican presidential nomination, said yesterday, standing beside Mr. Forbes at the Nasdaq MarketSite in Times Square in New York. But he said it was not clear whether dissolving the current system, so ingrained in the economy, would be feasible.

These days, Mr. Giuliani calls himself an advocate of supply-side economics and tells audiences that he cut taxes and restrained spending as mayor. He said several times yesterday that the federal tax code should be vastly simpler.

www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1808537/posts

[Sherman Logan]

In that case, it sounds like you’re talking about a value added tax, which most European countries have, and is very different from either a sales tax or a flat income tax.

[Sherman Logan]

I was originally responding to Jarhead, who referred to “you pay when you buy,” so I was assuming he meant a national sales tax. Possibly this was an inaccurate assumption.

[sheana]

The politicians are empowered by social engineering. They can accomplish that with our current tax system but the flat tax would take away that power.

[mc5cents]

The NRST is called the “Fair Tax”, the flat tax is called the “Flat Tax” and would have one rate for all income levels with little or no deductions but still be based on your income which you would have to report to the IRS. The so-called Fair Tax would eliminate the IRS and only tax consumption at point of sale with a tax “prebate” for low income people. That is how I understand it at any rate.

[Principled]

Pretty good - the prebate is for ALL people though. Its intent is to un-tax necessity level spending.

[Principled]

You made a valid assumption - it’s easy to mix the two up.

[AnAmericanMother]

You know what?

My accountant tells me that she wishes she could just QUIT doing taxes. She has plenty to do with other work like small business startups, etc., and the April crunch is totally insane.

When I was a lawyer in practice, I had PLENTY to do and never touched a tax case (thank the Lord!)

I think the folks who really don't want it to change are the politicians and lobbyists. The real money is in getting the politicos to amend the tax law to give your client an advantage . . . and in getting something to amend that law.

[Reagan Man]

Whatever the case maybe, my best advise is, never trust a liberal. ;^)

[Reagan Man]

correction: advice, not advise.

[dragnet2]

The politicians are empowered by social engineering. They can accomplish that with our current tax system but the flat tax would take away that power.

The bottom line.

[Repeal The 17th]

I am also against the “Flat Tax” plan, but the real problem
is that 90% of the U.S. sheeple can’t tell you the difference
between the “Flat Tax” plan and “the “Fair Tax” plan.
And they really just don’t care to know or to understand.

[dragnet2]

the real problem is that 90% of the U.S. sheeple can’t tell you the difference between the “Flat Tax” plan and “the “Fair Tax” plan.

Is that the real problem here? Maybe our representatives should discuss and debate this for another 10 or 20 years.

[Fred]

Hard to believe since the Father of the Flat Tax (Steve Forbes) is a big supporter of RG....

[EternalVigilance]

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at Giuliani’s cluelessness.

Okay, I’m laughing...

[dragnet2]

What is really amazing is we still have this antiquated, complicated tax system. So complicated many need to hire expensive accountants. It’s utterly ridiculous, but obviously a big benefit to the government.

I always love how they come up with their formulas for taxing the daylights out of people. When it’s all done and said, they came up with these formulas by pulling them out thin air.

[lewislynn]

The Fair Tax is supposedly revenue neutral so “Government” shouldn`t be effected. Its the accountants and lawyers and financial planners that don`t want change. You know, the folks that contribute so much to what is good about America.

So the Fairtax loves big government and eliminates the need for accountants, lawyers and financial planning...I didn't know that.

[bybybill]

Wow, you admit to once being a lawyer? You a brave Momma!

[lewislynn]

I always love how they come up with their formulas for taxing the daylights out of people. When it’s all done and said, they came up with these formulas by pulling them out thin air.

Yea, like saying a 30% tax is really only 23%...OOOPS, sorry that's the Fairtax formula.

This is where a Fairtax supporter comes along and has to write an essay to explain how and why.

[bybybill]

The supporters of the Fair Tax say it`s revenue neutral and while it wouldn`t eliminate accountants , lawyers (damn, I was hoping), and financial planners, don`t think every many of them will campaign for it.

[lewislynn]

If you had to add 30% to your service fee would you be for it?...I would have to (I’m none of the above) and I’m not for it for that and many other reasons.

[mc5cents]

I like the idea of the fair tax but would not support it without the repeal of the 16th amendment. Take away the power of congress to tax incomes and I’m on board.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

That is confusing. I think Rooty supported Forbes and his idea for a flat tax in 1996, or maybe it was in 2000. When Forbes came out for Rooty this year, Rooty said he didn't support the idea of a flat tax. Flip... flop... FLIP!

No.

• Rudy campaigned against Forbes' Flat Tax in 1996. Rudy Giuliani: "a flat income tax would really be a disaster"

• Then (FLIP), in order to gain Steve Forbes' endorsement in March of 2007, Giuliani reversed himself and proclaimed that a Flat Tax would be doubleplusgood, indeedy. As Forbes Endorses Giuliani, Giuliani Endorses a Flat Tax

• Now (FLOP), once again showing his true colors, Rooty has re-reversed himself and declared, "I don't think a flat tax is realistic change for America".

So, at this point, Giuliani's record on Tax Policy is a simple Flip-Flop (against, then back to, his original Pro-IRS position). Looking forward...

• In order to re-assure Steve Forbes and re-gain his support for the Nomination (FLUB), Giuliani will retract or modify these statements in order to once again appear "Flat Tax friendly" during the Primaries.

• Following that (FLAP), if -- God Forbid -- Giuliani wins the GOP Nomination, he will return once again to his default position of opposing a Flat Income Tax (Rooty will also return to his former opposition to a Flat Income Tax if he does not receive the Nomination, since at that point there will be no more reason for him to pretend to be a Flat Taxer).

Ergo, Rooty's eventual position on Tax Policy will be a "Flip-Flop-Flub-Flap".

You heard it here first.

[Principled]

Fair Tax supporters believe that when everyone pays the same marginal rate that there will be downward pressure on taxes and hence spending.

Fairtax supporters are for smaller government and believe the main reason we have unbounded government growth is because of the tax system minimizing the pain of taxation [wihholding], hiding taxation [business taxes], and using "divide and conquer" [groups of taxpayers with different marginal rates].

The nrst eliminates withholding, eliminates business taxes, and makes all taxpayers pay the same marginal rate. If you believe that fighting DC to get them to lower spending with the existing tax system in place will work, I support you 100%. But it hasn't worked - ever. Whatever number of voters pressuring DC for lower spending, there are an equal number pressuring DC for more spending .... and yes, those who want more spending are in the groups with lower marginal rates.

[bybybill]

Why would a switch to the Fair Tax cause you to raise fees?

[bybybill]

I love the Fair Tax and always have. Money spent on tax preparers is wasted, it produces nothing.