Posted on 05/11/2007 6:44:12 PM PDT by mdittmar
CAMP TAJI, Iraq – At the start of May, Iraqi Army recruits at the Regional Training Center here began receiving new M-16 and M-4 rifles.
The Iraqi government made the decision to crossover from standard AK-47 assault rifles to the American rifles as part of the reshaping of their military and security forces.
Under the program, Coalition Military Assistance Training Teams issue enlisted IA troops the M-16A4, while officers receive the M-4. With 200 basic training recruits per rotation, CMATT officials estimate that 1600 IA soldiers will receive the new weapons by the end of May.
According to Lt. Col. Walter Easter, Military Transition Team commander and senior advisor to the RTC, the exchange is as much a symbol of the new IA as it is an upgrade to the individual soldier’s capabilities.
“The M-16 has long been considered the world’s best rifle,” Easter said. “There’s a high percentage of [Iraqi Army recruits] who can shoot more accurately than we expected just because of the better weapon system that they have.”
The weapon exchange is just the first step in a five-day program of instruction for the Iraqis. However, new rifles are not handed out in a one-for-one swap. Coalition Forces assign each IA recruit a weapon using a high-tech, biometric issue system.
Verified against a master list and having tuned in his old rifle, the IA soldier and his new M-16 continue on to one of ten biometric stations, where he is finger printed, undergoes a digital retinal scan and is photographed with the M16’s serial number. Officials then transfer the information to a database in Baghdad, to ensure accountability and to prevent the weapon from ending up in the wrong hands.
“We are very excited about it,” said a 9th Iraqi Army Division second lieutenant, whose name is withheld to protect his identity. “We have been hearing about getting the new weapons for some time and finally they are here.”
U.S. Department of Defense civilian contractors provide hands-on instruction modeled after the same training American troops receive. Familiar box drills, sight picture training and live-fire weapon zeroing provide consistent and effective basic marksmanship skills.
It does a number of things for the basic IA soldier, said George Conrad, an assistant team leader providing the primary marksmanship instruction. The better weapon system puts the IA forces in sync with coalition troops and it builds their confidence.
Conrad said they have all seen change and new equipment at the higher echelons, but now, the soldier in the dirt has something new, something tangible, in his hands.
“It’s a sign of hope that things are changing,” he said. “It’s something that needed to be done.”
Easter said that training at the Taji RTC would continue at the company-size level, with program augmentation at Besimaya Range later this summer for IA battalions.
“Officials then transfer the information to a database in Baghdad, to ensure accountability and to prevent the weapon from ending up in the wrong hands.”
I think that will mean more than better accuracy.
I hope the Iraqis like their new rifles ....
The Pentagon convinced them to spend around two billion of their oil money to replace the AK-47 with American weapons like the M-16.
Like all commie countries, they are hurting for hard currency ... but nobody wants those rifles, at any price. It's not the ammo, Russia sell .223 as as cheap as the AK-47 round. Just nobody wants them.
And after that maintenance unit got hit in Gulf War Two, can ya blame them?
You think Iraq is making a mistake buying M-16 from the US?
Thanks for your input.
I believe the American military has become the model for the new Iraqi Army and anything they can do to copy or imitate our military adds to their confidence and professionalism. Weapons are just part of the package. I would doubt that pressure by the US alone would be enough to make the Iraqis switch from the familiar and widely accepted AK-47.
But if I were an Iraqi unit commander, ya, I'd object.
Care of equipment and weapons isn't a acceptable Third World concept. (While under the influence of Oklahoma Thinking juice, a couple of buddies and myself actually buried a MAK 90 in the backyard, where sprinklers went on once a day. After a month we dug it up and drove to Lyle Creek. A quick swab with a rag and it was good to go)
Something to note, though - it will make it easier for our guys to blend in, and harder for the bad guys.
After the surrender they had something like 700,000 of them. That’s why you see Palestinians, latino revolutionaries, and African terrorists, etc, carrying them. Half a million of them spread out all over the world, and not to the good guys.
PS. Is Iraq thinking about joining NATO???
I’ve never seen a Latin American thug with one, but I recall seeing Mexicans in one of the rebelling southern provinces with STEN Mark 3’s.
I think we gave the Pali’s about 5,000 in one of our attempts to give the Palestinian Authority some kind of respectability.
I hope that works better than the Valmet M-76 I used to own.The .223 seems to be a poor choice in an AK variant,the extractor would tear the heads of the cartridges if the chamber was a bit dirty.And that was with a chrome chamber,I think an AK prefers a larger cartrige head and a shorter case length.
Never served,thanks.
Kind of sets the tone for an intelligent conversation?
My point is that Third World countries just don't take care of their stuff.
Personally I love to blast my SIL's AR-15, but I have the luxury to sit down and give it a good cleaning before it goes into a locked closet and I bring out the barley pop.
What government really would want a bunch of worn out M16’s from the 60’s? M16’s can be a very effective weapon, providing they’re well maintained and not worn out, but I’d bet any M16’s in VN’s armories are neither. I handled plenty of old jammomatic M16A1’s back in the 80’s and I hated them, but when they gave us new M16A2’s I had to change my opinion of them. The new rifles were both reliable and accurate.
As an owner of both (civilan versions) I can say I prefer the M-16. Take a 15K acre state park, fence it in, give me a cabin and him a cabin and give both of us supplies. Then say one of us gets an AK and the other an M-16 and that I get to pick first, I’ll pick the M-16. I know it’s limitations but if I see him at 200 yds, the game is over.
A properly trained soldier always takes care of his 'stuff', who knows maybe our Army there will perform a miracle?
See post 12 for a potential solution to Iraq’s needs to become NATO compliant.
I thought our troops wanted a bigger caliber bullet with more shock so it could penetrate those mud blocks over there.
“We are very excited about it,” said a 9th Iraqi Army Division second lieutenant, whose name is withheld to protect his identity. “We have been hearing about getting the new weapons for some time and finally they are here.”
The sand will probably not be kind to the M16s.
I wouldn’t know about that.
That really depends on the AK in question. I haven't seen any chambered in 7.62x39 that could hold a candle to the AR for accuracy, but the ones in other calibers, (particularly the 5.56), often do quite well. I've got two in 5.56 that will shoot 2 MOA and one in .308 that will do 3. My old Mak90 on the other hand was lucky to shoot 6 MOA.
Being the armchair commandos are attempting to put lumps on this old bod anyway; I'll stir the pot. No likey the way one would have to break view of enemy zone to change magazines.
What say you?
I like the symbolism of this. The Kalashnikov is a symbol of third-worldism, communism, and terrorism. The M-16 is a symbol of the free world and being on the right side of history.
I shoot literally thousands of rounds through AR-15/M-16 variants a year. The Russian COPPER FMJ is my round of choice for target shooting; it is reliable and very clean. There was some Russians steel jacketed stuff that was very hot and caused excessive barrel wear - stopped using that.
“The Iraqi government made the decision to crossover from standard AK-47 assault rifles to the American rifles as part of the reshaping of their military and security forces.”
Good gawd. The country is awash in AK-47s. What a waste.
The M-16 series rifle requires a LOT of maintainence and training for same. The M-16 is particularly sensitive to sand. Iraq has plenty of sand.
If there is an Iraqi who does not know how to use an AK that Iraqi is less than 4 years old.
Since this thread has a bunch of ‘keyboard kommandos’, I was wondering if I could get a straight answer to a question.
Does anyone know the standard accuracy of an AK-47? Now, I’m not talking about a cherry-picked, accurized AK. Nor am I talking about one with match ammo. I’m talking about a Third World-issued AK with Warsaw Pact ammo. One concession, maybe, with a milled receiver and not a cruddy AKM stamped receiver. I’m just curious what our Spec Forces people run across when it comes to accuracy.
AK47/AKM accuracy? probably 3-6MOA. 3”-6” @ 100m 6”-12” @200m.
AR15/M16 1-3MOA
This is a great idea. I think the Iraqis will get alot of pride from arming themselves with the small arms symbol of the free world.
I thought my M-16 was a pice of crap in the first Gulf War. Now, the M-2 ... THAT is a nice piece of hardware.
Now that Mookie and his douchbag brothers are kicked out, its time to arm our friends.
More than that. If you want it to work, you have to pay attention to detail cleaning and maintaining the weapon. That in and of itself will make them more professional.
More attention to detail means they will pay more attention to detail elsewhere.
Thanx for the info! I agree, the M16 will be a step up in accuracy and a big leap in prestige for them.
Well, originally, Vietnam had almost a million of them. They sold or gave much of them away as military aid to their fellow Marxists, especially to Latin America. For example, did you know that Vietnamese ‘16s were used by the El Salvadorian FMLN, the Guatemalan URNG, the Colombian and Honduran anti-government forces, the FPMR of Chile and the Nicaraguan Sandinista govenment?
It sucks in sandy environments, like Camp Pendleton.
The AK is a "Chimp Rifle". Meaning that you could issue it to a chimpanzee and a year later it would still work.
The Iraqis are not chimps, but they are not Marines or US Army either.
I believe it would be better for them, and us, if we left them to a rifle they understand and know how to use.
Most of the fighting in Iraq is street-to-street. Short range. The extra accuracy of the M-16 is not required.
In my experience it was about 6 MOA, using a Chinese MAK90, (which, except for the stock, are considered to be decent AK's). A particularly good one like a Valmet would probably perform somewhat better. The problem seems to be mostly related to the cartridge. I have read that even AR's chambered in 7.62x39 tend to have disappointing accuracy.
If you go over to AR15.com and click on the AK47 tab you can find many threads on this subject. The consensus seems to be that AK's in 7.62x39 are capable of somewhere between 4 and 8 MOA depending on the gun in question and who you ask. AK's in other calibers do much better, but they don't seem to have the potential to be made truly accurate.
Thanks for the insight, LibKill. I, too, am concerned about the effectiveness of the M-16 in a high particulate environment and with an army that is still being broken in.
Thanks, elmer fudd, for your info, too. I will look up AR15.com. The MAK 90 sounds like a nice arm.
Okay, I missed this one. What is an M-4 Rifle? Anyone got a picture?
That’s because most of the 7.62X39 shot in them is cheap Russian Wolf and old surplus ammo. Accurate it ain’t The 7.62X39 ain’t no slouch itself. Various bolt-gun makers chamber it with good results. Heck the 6mmPPC widely regarded as one of the most naturally accurate cartridges ever made is a kissing cousin in design to the “Russian Short”. Also Ak’s aren’t accurate because of their designed loose tolerances. The good side of this is it allows for their legendary reliability.
No, the FAL is a symbol of the free world, in fact it was called “The Right arm of the Free world” and for good reason. Heck of a gun and if it was picked over the M14 our military would have used it for many years.
I thought Iran was using G3’s built in Iran? Heck of a good .308 battlerifle in it’s own right.
The shift from AK to AR is a sign they are becoming professionals.
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