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Proposals for Mental Health Parity Pit a Fatherís Pragmatism Against a Sonís Passion
NY Times ^ | March 19, 2007 | ROBERT PEAR

Posted on 03/19/2007 7:06:19 PM PDT by neverdem

WASHINGTON, March 18 — It’s Kennedy versus Kennedy as two members of Congress from the same family face off over competing versions of legislation that would require many health insurance companies and employers to provide more generous benefits to people with mental illness.

Representative Patrick J. Kennedy, Democrat of Rhode Island and chief sponsor of the House bill, has criticized as inadequate the Senate bill introduced by his father, Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts. Representative Kennedy is trying to mobilize mental health advocates to lobby for what he describes as “the stronger of the two bills, the House bill.”

Both bills seek to end discrimination against people with mental disorders by requiring insurers and employers to provide equivalent coverage, or parity, for mental and physical illnesses.

That would be a huge change. For decades, insurers have charged higher co-payments and set stricter limits on coverage of mental health services. For example, insurers often refuse to cover more than 20 visits a year to a psychotherapist. And a patient may have to pay 20 percent of the cost for visiting a cancer specialist, but 40 percent or more for a mental health specialist.

The differences between the Kennedys’ bills reflect different views about what is possible and what is politically feasible.

Senator Kennedy said he was taking a pragmatic approach and had made a number of compromises to win the support of business and insurance groups. These compromises, he said, greatly increased the chances that a bill would become law, protecting millions of Americans in group health plans.

Insurers and employers had opposed similar proposals in the past, saying the plans would drive up costs. This year, however, Senator Kennedy invited employers and insurers to help write the legislation, along with mental health groups, and they have endorsed the...

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: congress; govwatch; healthinsurance; managedcare; mentaldisorders; mentalhealth; socializedmedicine
I'll be surprised if one version doesn't become law.
1 posted on 03/19/2007 7:06:26 PM PDT by neverdem
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To: neverdem

Maybe if the Kennedy's paid taxes like the rest of us we could affordbetter health care.

They are great at handing out Gubmint money, why dont they pass out some of theirs?


2 posted on 03/19/2007 7:14:03 PM PDT by sgtbono2002 (I will forgive Jane Fonda, when the Jews forgive Hitler.)
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To: neverdem

Passion is usually a bad thing when it comes to public policy......


3 posted on 03/19/2007 7:37:45 PM PDT by clintonh8r (called a "KoolAid drinker" by Bill "Blowhard" O'Reilly...and proud of it!)
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To: neverdem

One of the major reasons health insurance is so expensive is that everybody is required to purchase the "luxury" version.

No room in the market for a Chevy, I guess. Only Infinitis and BMW allowed.


4 posted on 03/19/2007 7:38:45 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to be a vegetarian.)
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To: neverdem

Why is Pat Kennedy in Rhode Island?

All he had to do is wait in Massachusetts for his old man's ticker to shut down and he has himself the Kennedy inherited Senate seat.


5 posted on 03/19/2007 7:48:23 PM PDT by zendari
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To: zendari

What the mentally ill need is long term care for those who can't take care of themselves. Not this.


6 posted on 03/19/2007 7:53:17 PM PDT by ClaireSolt (Have you have gotten mixed up in a mish-masher?)
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To: neverdem

65% of all healthcare is currently paid for by the government, rapidly on its way to 70%.

They just can't quit micromanaging the tiny private bit of healthcare that is left out of the government's near monopoly, despite its lower costs, innovations and efficiencies it brings to the US and the world.


7 posted on 03/19/2007 7:58:48 PM PDT by Wiseghy ("You want to break this army? Then break your word to it.")
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To: neverdem

The only reason we have so many people seeking help for mental health is because we have kept telling these people it's ok to feel the way they do.. that many people do and medicine can help.

It's because people are coddled and told we all feel depressed when we get picked on or whatever that we have this crisis. If people were taught by their parents decent coping skills we wouldn't have this problem.

We divorces started running rampant in this country was the start of this problem. That simply told their children that you didn't have to face and overcome your problems.. you just ran away and hid from them.

When God said the sins of their parents would be taken out on their children God wasn't messing around.


8 posted on 03/19/2007 8:05:24 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Almondjoy

Sigh. We have a son who has Asperger's and obsessive-compulsive disorder. It has a neurological - that is physical - and not a psychological basis. It never was psychological - his brain is structured and connected differently. It's not a question of coping or parental sins.

Or take a girl who is going to die if she is not hospitalized for anorexia nervosa. She's allowed one month. Maybe only a week. She has relapses, like a kid who comes out of remission for cancer. Maybe her disease started off as emotional illness - she was trying to control her problems by not eating - but by now it's produced physical changes in her brain as well as life-threatening changes in her body. Her parents may have spent their house and their pensions trying to save her life.

Actually medicine is cheap, relatively speaking. Therapy and hospitalization are expensive.

You can argue that we just can't afford this. There used to be big state institutions where crazy people were kept and not given treatment. That might save money.

But don't blame parents who don't teach their kids to cope. My dad was a child of the Great Depression, self-reliant, learned great coping skills from his parents and a loving extended family - and he went crazy with paranoia and depression and killed himself when he was forty. If there had been good treatment back then, he might still be around.

Mrs VS


9 posted on 03/19/2007 8:58:46 PM PDT by VeritatisSplendor
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To: VeritatisSplendor

I'm very sorry for your own personal tragedy in your life.

No matter how close these things get to us it should not allow us to blame other people for our own actions. Or blame other's for the actions of our loved ones.

I know it seems like if your father had the help he needed that he would of been better.

The fact is people all around this country kill themselves everyday even after receiving all the help in the world. That's because they make a personal choice that life isn't worth living anymore. No amount of help can ever change that decision. As one person said. You either get busy living or you get busy dying.

Since I believe in God I have to stem my idea from what I know is my basic understanding of the bible.

Either you have to believe that since suicide sends you to hell that everyone has free will and is responsible for their own choice regardless of circumstances... or... you have to believe that God puts people on this planet to commit horrible acts that in some way don't affect them(ie soulless or automatically absolved because of their forced event) in order to influence other's or make some of impact on those people around that person in order to teach some sort of "lesson".

The 2nd may seem far fetched.. but if you think mental illness has no cure and is not the fault of the individual then you have to believe the 2nd.. that there is no capacity for change.


10 posted on 03/20/2007 8:01:36 AM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Almondjoy

You need a lesson about brain chemistry. MOST people who have severe depression, also have deficiencies in chemicals in the brain. Given chemicals, the depression can go away, and save their lives.


11 posted on 03/20/2007 11:49:18 AM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all.--William Goldman)
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To: neverdem

Mental health, health health, justice, police, corrections, military, and schools are all part of the same institution of the state. They are nominally under Gov't control, but Gov't is merely another institution of the state.


12 posted on 03/20/2007 11:52:47 AM PDT by RightWhale (Treaty rules;commerce droolz)
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

What most people don't understand it's that their saddness is what causes the chemicals in their brain to change.

Not the other way around.

If your theory is correct then that means that God doesn't hold accountable the actions of the severely depressed.


13 posted on 03/20/2007 8:04:03 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Almondjoy; Pan_Yans Wife
"What most people don't understand it's that their saddness is what causes the chemicals in their brain to change. Not the other way around.

There's a balance. In organic disease, no balance can be attained by the person w/o corrections,that can only be had through professional services. You can't hold sick folks as capable of changing the mechanics and chemistry of their diseased mind.

"If your theory is correct then that means that God doesn't hold accountable the actions of the severely depressed."

That's correct, He does not. He's looks at the response of others to their predicament of organic mental disease.

14 posted on 03/20/2007 8:18:06 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: Almondjoy

WRONG. I have a chemical imbalance, which brings about my symptoms of depression. Before this imbalance began, my moods were considered "normal".

But today, if I am happily going along, life is great, and I STOP taking my medications, my mood shifts into depression. It is NOT the other way around.

This is part of my living with manic-depression. This is a life-long illness that is not going to go away. No amount of "positive thinking" or prayer is going to make it go away on its own. It is only when the chemicals in my brain are evened out that the depression goes away.

And it isn't just a simple manner of popping pills. There is much more to my mood regulation than that.

God is God and will judge as He will. I would never say that He does not. Do not put such words in my mouth.

But you are assuming that just because someone is depressed they are in the wrong and deserve the wrath of God. What have I done to deserve this? Nothing. And God did not inflict me with it. It just happened. Similiar to when others just happen to have a heart condition or any other illness.


15 posted on 03/21/2007 4:14:52 AM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all.--William Goldman)
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To: spunkets

"There's a balance. In organic disease, no balance can be attained by the person w/o corrections..."

Really?

"That's correct, He does not. He's looks at the response of others to their predicament of organic mental disease."

That's facinating. So even if they murder they get a free pass? They automatically get to go to heaven while we all have to work for it? Could you point that out in the bible for me.. I would be facinated about how you found all this out.


16 posted on 03/21/2007 7:43:17 AM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

It's because your medicine is masking the problem. Just like Ritalin and quite a few other drugs you are only attacking the symptoms.. not what's causing you to be depressed in the first place.

You mentioned earlier that before the imbalance you were considered "normal". Did you just wake up one day a manic-depressive? If so can you explain to me why how Doctors figure that can happen? One day you are fine and one day you are manic? What scientific evidence can you quote that will help me understand this?

If there is much more to your mood regulation than just popping pills then obviously it isn't just your chemical imbalance that is the problem. If it was purely a chemical imbalance then fixing that imbalance would fix your problem.

I never said you didn't think God would judge you.. I'm just trying to understand if people who have severe disorders get a free pass.. that's all.

Well some people believe that everything does happen for a reason.. so therefore you are afflicted because of some grand purpose of God. Other's will say you have inccured God's wrath and that's why you feel the way you do. While other's still will say you have afflicted yourself do to something you have done in the past that you can't get past. Other's still will say that you have been afflicted because of other's actions upon you and which you haven't learned how to cope with those actions yet. Or like you said.. life can be just one big accident.

But what I can tell you is coming from a family in which my brother is on medication. My wife has a mother who is on medication. From Doctors who said it's "passed in the gene's". I overcame severe anxiety disorder(severe shaking vomiting etc.), my wife overcame severe depression, we were able to overcome these things through the word of God and learning that our feelings weren't the most important thing in the world. When you focus on what's good around you instead of what's bad inside of you.. your whole view of the world changes and you are able to overcame much of the mental stuff you are talking about.

Whatever path you choose I wish you well.


17 posted on 03/21/2007 7:53:14 AM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Almondjoy
Re: "There's a balance. In organic disease, no balance can be attained by the person w/o corrections..."

"Really?"

Really.

"That's facinating. So even if they murder they get a free pass? They automatically get to go to heaven while we all have to work for it? Could you point that out in the bible for me."

Luke 23:34
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.I already gave you John 9, where GOd says those who claim to know better, will be judged on their claims. God came to teach, and here's what He said in the matter.

John 9:39-41
Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"

Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

"I would be facinated about how you found all this out."

Rational inquiry.

18 posted on 03/21/2007 8:10:22 AM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: Almondjoy

My medication is not MASKING any problem. And obviously you have not done any study of bipolar disorder.

Here is a beginning summary for you.

Bipolar disorder, also known as manic-depressive illness, is a brain disorder that causes unusual shifts in a person's mood, energy, and ability to function. Different from the normal ups and downs that everyone goes through, the symptoms of bipolar disorder are severe. But there is good news: bipolar disorder can be treated, and people with this illness can lead full and productive lives.

About 5.7 million American adults or about 2.6 percent of the population age 18 and older in any given year, have bipolar disorder. Bipolar disorder typically develops in late adolescence or early adulthood. However, some people have their first symptoms during childhood, and some develop them late in life. It is often not recognized as an illness, and people may suffer for years before it is properly diagnosed and treated. Like diabetes or heart disease, bipolar disorder is a long-term illness that must be carefully managed throughout a person's life.

Bipolar disorder causes dramatic mood swings—from overly "high" and/or irritable to sad and hopeless, and then back again, often with periods of normal mood in between. Severe changes in energy and behavior go along with these changes in mood. The periods of highs and lows are called episodes of mania and depression.

Like other mental illnesses, bipolar disorder cannot yet be identified physiologically—for example, through a blood test or a brain scan. Therefore, a diagnosis of bipolar disorder is made on the basis of symptoms, course of illness, and, when available, family history. The diagnostic criteria for bipolar disorder are described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM-IV).2

The scientific evidence is found in the cycling through the symptoms. On medication, the depression or mania (in my case hypomania) goes away. Without the medication, I slip into severe depression needing hospitalization with advanced treatment that can even go beyond medications. ECT has been an effective treatment for me, as well. The ECT does "something" to the brain chemistry. It is kind of a mystery as to why it works, but it DOES work.

Psychotherapy is an important part of dealing with the illness, especially in identifying stressful "triggers" that can bring about a mood change that can rapidly evolve into more serious symptoms.

I do not believe that I get a free pass. Then again, there is nothing that I have done that deserves a pass to begin with. I'm able to function at a reasonable level. So much so, that if you saw me on the street you wouldn't know I am bipolar. Bipolar people do not stand out in a crowd.

I didn't say that life is one big accident. I believe that EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON. I'm bipolar, my uncle had cancer, my father is diabetic, and my friend in grade school was blind. None of us were "punished" with these. God allowed them to happen in our lives for varying reasons. That's just the way life is.

IF your depression that you overcame was CHEMICAL in nature, not just in your mind or heart, you would understand the difference that I am trying to stress for you.

Bipolar is a genuine medical condition, that can ONLY be treated. It will NOT disappear in my life. And if I am diligent enough, I will be able to control it well. If I do NOT control it, I will suffer greatly.

Even though episodes of mania and depression naturally come and go, it is important to understand that bipolar disorder is a long-term illness that currently has no cure. Staying on treatment, even during well times, can help keep the disease under control and reduce the chance of having recurrent, worsening episodes.

Lastly, I don't appreciate your tone. As I said, I'm not masking anything, God didn't punish me with this, life isn't an accident, and focusing on the "good" in life isn't enough.

Even though mania feels good for some people, waltzing through my days on a bipolar high of hypomania or even mania is NOT a walk in the park. I am not blessed with the specific high of of mania, the opposite of depression.

It isn't a matter of PRAYING more. I have prayed, and many, many people have prayed for me... to get the correct treatment, find the correct medications, meet the correct therapists and MANAGE my illness. God HAS answered those prayers.

This is the last I have to say on the subject.

Read more here: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bipolar.cfm

Good day.


19 posted on 03/21/2007 8:51:22 AM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all.--William Goldman)
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To: spunkets

Actually you are quoting scripture for your own devices.

None of those quotes mean what you think they say.

The first is a claim of forgiveness upon all people. Jesus basically saying that all sin is forgivable if you ask for the forgiveness.

The second I'm not sure how that relates at all.

The third can actually be a claim of not knowing Christianity as well. You could use it as assuming one doesn't know the different between right and wrong.. however few mentally ill people actually have that distinction. Those who are stricken with anxiety or depression still understand the difference between right and wrong. Even psychopaths even know the different between right and wrong. They just don't care.

You better come up with better stuff than that.


20 posted on 03/21/2007 8:24:59 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

Oh geez.. there you go again quoting a defintion.

You realize this comes from the same people who have also told the world that homosexuality isn't a disorder.. people are born with it.. even though they don't have any proof of it.

Science has also given us global warming or the thought that it's all going to doom us anyways.

Have you ever heard the line "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder." If not you should check it out.

Bipolar disorder could also be described as people who refuse to take any responsiblity for their actions and their hi's and low's are the result of them failing to learn how to regulate their own moods.

So no tests can be taken to prove that bi-polar disorder is an actual problem with the brain... don't you find that interesting?

My depression that I overcame was Medical.. I'm not sure where you get that it wasn't.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion but I believe that Bi-polar disorder can be controlled by realizing that you have the power to change yourself.

I'm sorry that you don't like my tone. You never addressed why ritalin is a drug that the medical industry likes to say can only control ADD but there are plenty of non drug alternatives that can do the same thing.

Do you really think there are no non drug alternatives to severe depression and the like? Why does it apply to ADD which is classified as a severe mental disorder but not other types?

You can't just pray for something to happen and then it happens. Often times God won't change it because we have to change something in ourselves first.. a lesson learned usually. Once we change what needs to be fixed our prayers get answered and we are able to move forward knowing that the change was part of what allowed us to move on.

That's why we can pray for a million dollars but it never comes.. we have to prove that we are worry of money.. we have to prove that it's safe in our hands. It's when we prove that, that opportunties arise for us to seize our "dream/prayer".

You feel entitled to have to tell everyone that you have a severe illness and you may very well have an illness that cannot be correct through any sort of ability to connect with God.. only medication can help you. But just because you have that right to that opinion it doesn't mean you get to present it as fact. Because it's not.


21 posted on 03/21/2007 8:37:21 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Almondjoy
"Actually you are quoting scripture for your own devices. "

Ridiculous.

"None of those quotes mean what you think they say. "

Of course not.

"The first is a claim of forgiveness upon all people."

No. God forgave only those that didn't know what they were doing, not those that did, or that claimed they did. He did not, as John 9 points out, forgive those that claimed they could see. Nor, did He forgive Judas.

"Jesus basically saying that all sin is forgivable if you ask for the forgiveness."

He says that in other places, and asks that one everyone forgive others, as he did. He forgives, regardless of being asked. All sin is not forgivable. Those that don't forgive others reject the Holy Spirit, and those that reject the Holy Spirit are not forgiven. Matthew 12:32
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Re: "That's facinating. So even if they murder they get a free pass? They automatically get to go to heaven while we all have to work for it? Could you point that out in the bible for me."

"The second I'm not sure how that relates at all. "

Obviously, as I said, folks that don't have the capacity can not know. If they are blind, they are forgiven. God looks at how others judge them, and judges those folks accordingly.

"The third can actually be a claim of not knowing Christianity as well. "

God judges based on how one's own Spirit compares to the Holy Spirit. Those are forgiven as the blind are, unless they have effectively rejected the Holy Spirit.

"You could use it as assuming one doesn't know the different between right and wrong.. however few mentally ill people actually have that distinction. Those who are stricken with anxiety or depression still understand the difference between right and wrong."

You don't have a clue about how the mind works, and you accuse others that are born with impediments of being sinners. You're a faith healer that panders mumbo jumbo, not a physician. You don't even have the least of a rudimentary grasp of the subject, so don't play one. You've failed to even grasp what God said in the passages I wrote to you.

"Even psychopaths even know the different between right and wrong. They just don't care."

Your ignorance is glaring. It depends on the disease.

"You better come up with better stuff than that."

whatever.

22 posted on 03/22/2007 2:13:07 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: spunkets

"No. God forgave only those that didn't know what they were doing..."

Right.. but severe depressives know what they are doing. They also know they are taking the easy way out by taking medication instead of dealing with the problem.

My point comes from what did severe depressives do 300 or 3000 years ago. They either overcame it or they scummbed to it.

Actually speaking against the Holy Spirit and "not forgiving" as you put it are two totally different things.

For instance anyone who sins is rejecting the Holy Spirit.. God says that when we take the Holy Spirit into our hearts we know that sin is bad and that we shouldn't do it.. therefore when we fall down we are ignoring that Holy Spirit.

Again you are using your quotes out of context.

So since people are born "blind" as you put it.. blind in intself means you don't have the mental capacity to comphrened then you must believe that people are born for the sole purpose not of having to live up to God's word but for the only reason to commit acts of sin against others for some greater purpose.

"God judges based on how one's own Spirit compares to the Holy Spirit. Those are forgiven as the blind are, unless they have effectively rejected the Holy Spirit."

So then there are those who are blind and then there are those who reject? There is nothing inbetween?

Actually it's who are reading passages to fit your own beliefs. Taking things out of context. If you are so against faith healers you must of been against Jesus as well. Jesus was a faith healer.


23 posted on 03/22/2007 4:46:23 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Almondjoy
"My point comes from what did severe depressives do 300 or 3000 years ago. They either overcame it or they scummbed to it. "

They never overcame organic disease.

"Actually speaking against the Holy Spirit and "not forgiving" as you put it are two totally different things."

Not forgiving can be a rejection of the Holy Spirit. Speaking against the Holy Spirit, means rejection of the Holy Spirit.

"Jesus was a faith healer."

No. God healed, because He had the power to. All else is in accord with the parable of Gen 3, man is to live by their own works. That includes healing.

24 posted on 03/22/2007 5:42:05 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: Almondjoy

When you can show me your medical transcripts proving that you have a doctorate in psychiatry... and proof that you are praciticing at a well-known hospital, I will listen to you.

Otherwise, you are intitled to continue on with your own ignorance. Being shown as foolish is not remotely conducive to discussion. I pity you.

Good day.


25 posted on 03/23/2007 10:06:36 AM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all.--William Goldman)
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

Why would you need to pity me?

How could you possibly argue me as foolish?

Is it someone neive of me to think that God doesn't create anyone mentally defective?

If God creates people that have no responsiblity to their own actions would it not be reasonable to assume that this could apply to anyone? Maybe Hitler was created for some grand purpose of learning. Ted Bundy was created for another. Then we could also say that Osama was created by God for the sole purpose of uniting Christians.

Is it suddenly not fair for me to consider Ted Bundy, Adolph Hitler, and Osama Bin Laden insane? Or am I forced to acknowledge the fact that they are in heaven because their are "blind" as another poster put it.

If God helped humanity create these mental medications for good.. what about the millions of people that suffered from these diseases before these technologies existed? Are they on the outs because they were born in the wrong age? Or are more people now no longer considered "blind" because medication can help them "see".

Your arguement comes from some psycharists who have duped the world into believing homosexuality isn't a disease and that you have to spend years in therapy or taking medication or both just to cope with the world.

I don't see how my points are any less logical than others.


26 posted on 03/23/2007 11:37:41 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Almondjoy
Bipolar disorder could also be described as people who refuse to take any responsiblity for their actions and their hi's and low's are the result of them failing to learn how to regulate their own moods

I've seen people suffering from bipolar disorder at work dozens if not hundreds of times. These people are, to a greater or lesser degree, disabled by what is a very real disease brought on by a chemical imbalance. It is not a matter of being irresponsible, it's a matter of being mentally unable to control the manic and depressive episodes brought on by this disorder.

While I congratulate you on your ability to overcome some of your own mental health problems, you have to understand that your experiences don't mirror those of other mentally ill individuals. For many of them drug treatments are the only way to live a normal life.

27 posted on 03/23/2007 11:58:44 PM PDT by Zeroisanumber (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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To: Almondjoy
"Ted Bundy, Adolph Hitler, and Osama Bin Laden insane? Or am I forced to acknowledge the fact that they are in heaven because their are "blind" as another poster put it."

I never made such a claim. None of these people you listed had organic disease as the cause for their evil. The claim I did make, is that you don't have a rudimentary grasp of these matters.

28 posted on 03/24/2007 10:26:54 AM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: spunkets

Well that's pretty lame.

How can you assume that none of those people had an organic disease?

Are you now saying that people with "organic diseases" are not capable of evil?


29 posted on 03/24/2007 12:46:22 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Zeroisanumber

Science can't even explain why a chemical imbalance occurs in the first place.

Their is no scientific proof that the chemical imbalance isn't a result of a person's own mood change.

As the person on this thread with a chemical balance already stated. There are no tests to find the disease. No way to prove the disease even exists. There is only a laundry list of symptoms in which this doctor has to compare you to in order to prescribe the right kind of medication.

Does that sound like science to you? Guessing on the medication based on a patients and/or doctor's preceived symptoms?


30 posted on 03/24/2007 12:50:25 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Almondjoy
"How can you assume that none of those people had an organic disease? "

I don't assume anything in the matter, I observe. I can observe they clearly made conscious decisions based on their particular reasons, which were not moral. I also can observe, that there was no organic desease evident.

"Are you now saying that people with "organic diseases" are not capable of evil?"

depends on what it is, and the severity of desease. Certainly, shizophrenia precludes rational functional use, or control of the mind. Manic depression can do the same. It forces emotional control of behavior, rather than rational, or thoughtful control based on such things as prior moral decisions, and value judgments. For very low IQs, behavior depends on what organic emotional drives are present, and what guidance they receive from others.

Good and evil are qualificaitons, that can only be judged on conscious decisions made by a rational being. When rationality is hindered, or made impossible by organic disease, that fact must be considered. No one can change the physics involved in the biology of organic disease by thinking, or praying it away. The chemistry must be addressed to remove the impediment.

31 posted on 03/24/2007 1:06:15 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: Almondjoy
"Science can't even explain why a chemical imbalance occurs in the first place. "

Yes it can.

"Their is no scientific proof that the chemical imbalance isn't a result of a person's own mood change. "

Neurophysiology is understood enough to know what is normal, and what is not. That means the functions of neurophysiological structures and chemistry are known and understood. Even the functioning of the mind as a rational agent is. that does not mean, that what can be recognized as a problem, can be addressed at this point in time.

"As the person on this thread with a chemical balance already stated. There are no tests to find the disease. "

There are tests, and no one said there wasn't. Anyone can be examined to determine mental and affect function. If affect is inappropriate and more, or less interferes with rational drives, it can and will be observed.

"There is only a laundry list of symptoms in which this doctor has to compare you to in order to prescribe the right kind of medication."

No. That is guessing. The only way to recognize and treat disease is by knowing and understanding the biology in depth. Only by knowing and understanding it, can the disease be recognized and the appropriate corrections taken.

32 posted on 03/24/2007 1:19:13 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: spunkets

Based on your observations? Did you live with Hitler? Did you share a room in college?

Depends on what it is? You have got to be kidding me. Even a mentally challenged person can know the difference between right and wrong.


33 posted on 03/24/2007 5:18:32 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: spunkets

It can.. where is your evidence?

Point me out to articles that prove that chemical imbalances are in inherited.. or anywhere where it says it can be proved why these imbalances can occur midlife and how that happens.

You said observed.. so it's based purely on speculation.. and purely based on observed symptoms. You could of at least "I would have to agree with you Almondjoy that there are no scientific tests to find cause.. only symptoms." It would of been much easier to say that don't you think?

"The only way to recognize and treat disease is by knowing and understanding the biology in depth. Only by knowing and understanding it, can the disease be recognized and the appropriate corrections taken."

Well according to your own statements there is currently no understanding of what is currently happening with the human brain other than to "observe" what is taking place in the patient.

So basically what you are saying is anyone that has an understanding of the symptoms could fake a mental disorder.

Good job. And thanks for proving my point.


34 posted on 03/24/2007 5:23:24 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: zendari
It's cheap to buy a seat in a small state like RI.

Little competition if a senate seat opens up, compared to say, MA, where there are other reps lusting after a senate seat, and then staties lusting after a US House seat.

35 posted on 03/24/2007 6:22:52 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Almondjoy
"Based on your observations? Did you live with Hitler? Did you share a room in college?"

You don't even understand the concept of observation.

"Depends on what it is? You have got to be kidding me. Even a mentally challenged person can know the difference between right and wrong."

Learn some neurophysiology.

36 posted on 03/24/2007 6:28:14 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: Almondjoy
"Point me out to articles that prove that chemical imbalances are in inherited.. or anywhere where it says it can be proved why these imbalances can occur midlife and how that happens."

Learn some basic science first, then you can progress to biology.

"You said observed.. so it's based purely on speculation.. and purely based on observed symptoms."

You left out knowing the susject and understand the machinery of the mind. THere's no speculation required for those who know and unerstand the matter. In order to understand what a symptom means, one must understand hte machinery quite well. That's, because the doc must differentiate, between many possible causes.

"Well according to your own statements there is currently no understanding of what is currently happening with the human brain other than to "observe" what is taking place in the patient. "

Ridiculous.

"So basically what you are saying is anyone that has an understanding of the symptoms could fake a mental disorder."

No.

37 posted on 03/24/2007 6:38:07 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: spunkets

Explain to me your keen sense of observation then.

I think I'm already explaining to you neurophysiology. You don't seem to get it though.


38 posted on 03/24/2007 7:16:41 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: spunkets

So you can't back up your claims of science... good for you.

You understand the machinery of the mind? You must be the smartest person in the world.. far smarter than even people in the psychology field. That's amazing.

Not ridulous... proof.



Yes.


39 posted on 03/24/2007 7:18:42 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Almondjoy
"Explain to me your keen sense of observation then."

The ability to observe accurately does not require that it be direct.

"I think I'm already explaining to you neurophysiology."

No. Read some books.

"So you can't back up your claims of science... good for you. "

Ridiculous.

"You understand the machinery of the mind?

Yes, fairly well.

"You must be the smartest person in the world.. far smarter than even people in the psychology field. That's amazing.

I don't place much stock in many, if not most psychologists. Psychiatrists, neurologists, and some involved in AI, amongst others, have a much better grasp of the mind.

40 posted on 03/24/2007 7:34:35 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: Calvin Locke; zendari

I'm sure there are plenty of other Kennedys waiting in line for any political position that money can buy.


41 posted on 03/24/2007 7:42:15 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: spunkets

You have proven nothing except that you know nothing.

When asked to back up your science you cannot.

So therefore you are either an idiot or a fool. Either way thanks for proving absoultely nothing.


42 posted on 03/24/2007 9:52:05 PM PDT by Almondjoy
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To: Almondjoy

I see. Ignoorance is bliss. Read a book.


43 posted on 03/24/2007 10:20:40 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: neverdem
Both bills seek to end discrimination against people with mental disorders by requiring insurers and employers to provide equivalent coverage, or parity, for mental and physical illnesses.

Another way of saying it, "Both bills seek to open the floodgates of insurance money to psychologists and other "therapists" so they can cash in like the real doctors already do."
44 posted on 03/24/2007 10:23:08 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: aruanan

Amen.


45 posted on 03/25/2007 7:55:20 AM PDT by Almondjoy
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