Posted on 03/02/2007 1:04:18 PM PST by Ultra Sonic 007
Greetings.
This is just going to be a simple thread. Granted, there's been a lot of vitriol on both sides of the Giuliani/Hunter divide, and those who are undecided (or voting for someone else) are probably wondering about the rage.
Well, let's examine this situation a bit.
First of all, Rudy Giuliani. He certainly cleaned up New York City; no doubt about that. His fiscal policies certainly seem conservative compared to the rest of New York City (despite that fact New York City and its home state are home to some of the highest taxes in the US; I wonder what previous taxes must have been like, adjusted for inflation?). I won't deny that he did a lot for New York City, but it's important to think about his positions and standpoints. Then you'll see why detractors of Rudy Giuliani are so angry.
For one thing, he is not a very constitutionally sound candidate. All you have to do is look at his positions concerning the 2nd Amendment. He's far too wiling to accomadate illegal immigrants. Socially, his conservatism is rather lacking; despite some Freeper's wish to the contrary, a lot of people regard abortion as a major issue considering that it results in the loss of innocent lives. His positions are often in conflict with a majority of the GOP, and are simultaneously coinciding with those of the Democrats. With the exception of the War on Terror, he's mostly opposed to the GOP. Considering the far-Left bent of New York, that's not surprising. That's one reason why a lot of people are skeptical of New York's former Mayor; although conservative by comparison with the rest of New York, he's most certainly not conservative enough for the office of the US President.
Although I know that the War on Islamofascism (the War on Terror for those who are politically correct) is supported fullheartedly by Rudy, it's important to weigh that with other issues as well. Franklin Delano Roosevelt was steadfast in his support of World War II, yet he was responsible for introducing a glut of socialism into American society (Social Security ring a bell?). This is a lead-in for a point I'll get into in a moment: sacrificing social conservative values for a strong wartime leader may seem fine and dandy, but why should that occur when other strong advocates for the War on Terror exist...without the Leftist baggage that Rudy carries?
A brief look at Duncan Hunter before I continue on; his strongest points are his social conservative values and his previous service as a Ranger. His military background and military family provide strong evidence for a good wartime leader, and one of his strongest points are his stances for border control and AGAINST illegal immigration. Granted, his fiscal conservatism may be a bit spotty; he's pro-tax cuts, but he's also a bit of a spender. I've heard many complaints about how he's against free trade, but his stances strike me more as against China's trade practices. Seeing China's military build-up and their friendliness with Iran and other hostile countries, it's understandable. I certainly don't hear him complaining about trade with England, Japan, Germany, or other countries.
When weighing all the issues, it would seem that - comparing Giuliani and Hunter - the latter comes out as more conservative than liberal, whereas the former is more liberal than conservative. I know that Reagan's famous "80% ally and 20% enemy" quotation has been thrown about a lot by Rudy supporters, but "80% enemy, 20% ally" seems more fitting for Giuliani considering how diametrically opposed he is to conservative values. The support is all the more confusing when you consider one important facet. When looking at this facet, some of you might wonder why there is such anger on Free Republic lately.
We're not even at the primaries yet.
Yes, that's right. The mainstream media has been trotting out Rudy/McCain/Romney as the big three Republican candidates, and considering the supposed invincibility of Hillary, it's quite easy to imagine a Rudy vs. Hillary general election. I guess this "anyone but Hillary" mentality is justification for supporting someone like Rudy, who's quite liberal. A major reason for his popularity with conservatives is:
A) Name recognition (a good deal from 9/11 alone).
B) "Electability"
I don't quite know how one can gauge option B. Perhaps it stems from the 2006 elections, where Republicans lost in a big way. I guess those who look at those who loss (like Santorum) and guess that illegal immigration is a losing issue. Understandable. However, this is surrendering to the power of the media, which has managed to color the Republican Party as the Party of Corruption. If their searing eye was directed at the Democrats with the same intensity, we'd see a big switch in voter positions. But alas, that's a different issue.
Think about the Democrats who won. Granted, a lot of voters wanted an alternative to "corrupt" Republicans, but take note that many of the new Democrats who won ran on pro-life, socially conservative positions. Whether this will hold up has yet to be determined, but it should remind people that socially conservative issues still carry a large sway with voters. It all comes down to presentation; certianly, Rudy Giuliani is an effective speaker (as his recent CPAC appearance showed; sorry Bush, but you're not very telegenic). Whether Hunter is has yet to be determined (8:00 PM Eastern on C-SPAN tonight will show a replay of his 8:30 AM speech, so we'll see; call C-SPAN to make sure they don't change it!), so we'll see.
But anyway, back to my main point: the primaries.
I see many Freepers tearing themselves to shreds. Many people are angry with Rudy supporters, and I see some Rudy supporters lament why they're so antagonistic. Can you blame them? We're not even at the primaries yet, and you're throwing your weight behind someone who is far more liberal than conservative. Obviously, this is quite concerning.
There are conservative candidates out there. Grassroots can accomplish a lot, and we are NOT at the primaries yet. For a conservative to support a liberal candidate strikes many here (including me) as contradictory, as it should be. Rudy Giuliani's own standpoints on many issues infuriate a lot of Freepers (note to all: showcasing the standpoints/political leanings/views of a candidate is not smearing). I note how many complain about people trying to "tear Rudy down".
This is what happens when the candidate you support is a liberal.
Of course conservatives are going to tear a liberal down! If revealing his stances, showcasing his political record, and doing so repeatedly counts as tearing an opponent down, so what? Would you not do the same for Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, Hillary, Al Gore, or Obama? That's why politics is a deadly game and requires a tough skin...but alas, I have to finish with my point.
Conservatism is being rendered irrelevant bit by bit in this country, and a lot of people can see that. They want to reverse that tide and remind people why America's conservative values are the best around. But how can we accomplish that when we ignore conservatives in favor of popular liberals?
Needless to say, Rudy Giuliani was great for New York City. But he's simply too liberal to be good for America.
And what if it does come down to Rudy vs. Hillary?
Well, there's your answer: it's still a what-if. We're not there yet.
So focus on the conservatives until then. Unless you want conservatism to surrender itself to irrelevance.
Ping to all.
Be nice.
Above-average grammar and composition, for a vanity. Help yourself to some pretzels and a Diet Coke!
I agree with Rush Limbaugh's position. He's very upfront that Rudy is not a conservative and that conservatism will never allow itself to be redifined according to the current political fashions.
But Rush still quite clearly does not rule out supporting Rudy. That's because every election is different and in some elections it might be in the cards to swing for the fences with a conservative candidate, while in another election, the smart move might be to try for a bunt in the hopes of keeping the inning alive.
A vote for Rudy to beat Hillary would be comparable to a bunt in my view. I'm not saying that will be the best we can hope for, but I'm pragmatic enough to know that it might be required. Just look what happened in the 2006 elections to conservatives like Santorum and Allen in key battleground states.
Rudy with anyone will send me to a third party.
Please be respectful.
***I respectfully point out that Rudy's positions can be seen in his own words, on YouTube, and that his supporters have been quiet on the thread set up to discuss the video.
Rudy Giuliani video on YouTube: "I would like to run on the Democratic line "
YouTube ^
Posted on 03/01/2007 2:53:19 PM PST by Kevmo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVBtPIrEleM
Even Newt?
I was just about to post that.
The "All or Nothings" and Duncanistas on FR are would rather have Hillary as Pres. All in the name for teaching the Republicans a lesson.
Unless and until that situation arises, I'll not support Giuliani.
Romney is my first choice, with Duncan Hunter gaining in second place.
There is no way I could iiin good conscience ever vote for Rudy McRomney. I will go third party.
A well said and reasoned post Ultra Sonic 007.
A good, cogent piece. See tagline for my thoughts on the matter...
Yes.
That's me. It's sad to watch conservatives cutting themselves up. The liberals must be loving this.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.