Posted on 02/05/2007 1:27:10 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
Yet church members slog on through the gay clergy debate because leaders can't seem to devise a solution that satisfies both sides.
Ron Miller is a member of Druid Hills Presbyterian Church in Atlanta who says he would have "no problem at all" accepting a gay pastor.
But the genial church elder says he'd rather focus on something else — and so should other churches.
"A lot of time and energy is being spent by governing bodies and individual churches over this issue," Miller says. "That time could be devoted to the real mission of the church: helping the poor, the homeless, the community at large."
Miller's frustration reflects the weariness in several Protestant denominations. After years of fighting over the acceptance of gay clergy, some church leaders say they're exhausted. The nonstop battles are draining the life from their congregations and driving members away.
Yet church members slog on through the gay clergy debate because leaders can't seem to devise a solution that satisfies both sides.That was evident in discussion about a church trial held two weeks ago in Atlanta. An Evangelical Lutheran Church in America jury tried an Atlanta pastor for defying church policies that accept gay clergy only if they're celibate.
The Rev. Bradley E. Schmeling of St. John's Lutheran Church in Midtown faces expulsion from the ELCA clergy roster after telling his bishop that he was in a committed, sexual relationship with another man. A verdict is imminent.
No matter what the ELCA's verdict is, expect more confrontations in more denominations in the future, church leaders say.
"It's an enormous mess," says Jim Berkley of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, who has been following the gay clergy debate in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). "Because there's been 35 years of turmoil, some people are very tired and would like to get along with other things so there's some sense of trying to compromise."
Mark Jordan, a professor in Emory University's department of religion and author of, "Blessing Same-Sex Unions" (University of Chicago Press, $29), says denominations are "breaking apart like icebergs" despite the compromises.
The policy is an interim measure, not a solution, he says. Some gay ELCA pastors defy the policy by being sexually active but don't tell church authorities.
"It's just a stop-gap measure until one side or the other wins in the church," says Jordan. "The unfortunate problem is that this particular stop-gap encourages people to be dishonest."
The ELCA's stalemate isn't isolated. In 2003, the Episcopal Church accepted an openly gay bishop who was in a relationship. The infighting continues. In December, eight congregations in the Virginia diocese as well as a diocese in California announced that they were cutting ties with the Episcopal Church because of that decision.
Mark Rigler, a member of the Episcopal Church for 18 years, recently left the denomination because of the debate over the acceptance of a gay bishop.
He's joined Holy Cross Anglican Church in Loganville, where the church rejects the acceptance of sexually active gay clergy.
"We don't have the conflict over leadership," he says. "We're clear about the way God wants us to lead one another."
Church leaders involved with their own denominational fights over the issue of gay clergy say there are three major reasons why the debate is so intractable.
They are:
• Differing views on homosexuality
Those who support and those who oppose sexually active gay clergy don't even speak the same language. One side sees homosexuality as a sin; another says it's a sexual orientation.
Mark Chavez, director of WordAlone, an ELCA group that wants its denomination to enforce its ban on sexually active gay clergy, doesn't accept the argument that prohibiting gay pastors from sexual intimacy is unrealistic. He considers homosexuality a sin.
"A heterosexual serial adulterer could use that argument and say, 'I can't help it, and it's not realistic for me to not act out on these feelings and you need to accept me,' " Chavez says. "That would be devastating to the church."
But Lowell Erdahl, a retired ELCA bishop, says it's unrealistic to think that people choose to be gay — or straight.
"I didn't sit down one day when I was 13 and say, 'I'm going to choose to be interested in girls,' " says Erdahl, co-author of "Sexual Fulfillment: For Single and Married, Straight and Gay, Young and Old," (Augsburg Fortress Publishers, $14.99).
Erdahl says any minister — gay or straight — should be ordained if they're in a committed relationship.
"The sinfulness of a sexual relationship has a lot more to do with the relationship between two people than it does with specific sexual activity," he says.
• At odds with local congregations
When denominations are wrestling with the issue of gay clergy, some punt the decision to local congregations, church leaders say. That's what some Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) leaders appeared to do last summer at the denomination's General Assembly.
The denomination reaffirmed ordination rules requiring "fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman or chastity in singleness."
But it also appeared to give local ordaining bodies greater flexibility in deciding to accept gay clergy on an individual basis in a separate decision.
"It's a way of saying we can't agree so we'll let people fight it out at the local level," says Jordan, author of "Blessing Same-Sex Unions."
When the national church doesn't speak clearly on the issue, church leaders say it emboldens local leaders to make up their rules.
Chavez, from WordAlone, says it's common knowledge that certain ELCA bishops have sexually active gay clergy in their synods but "the bishop just looks the other way."
"It continues to weaken the denomination and not only create confusion but some pretty unjust situations," Chavez says.
• Different takes on Bible
Protestant denominations are filled with groups that clash over incendiary issues such as the Iraq war, capital punishment and the ordination of women. Yet those issues rarely threaten to break them apart.
The debate over gay clergy seems different, at least for now. Both sides cite the Bible but they read the Bible in very different ways.
Church leaders tend to embrace a literal reading of Scripture. They say their opposition to gay clergy is rooted in a deeper, non-negotiable issue — obedience to Scripture.
"Instead of submitting to the word of God, we place ourselves with authority over God's word," Chavez says.
Those who support gay clergy have a different view of Scripture. They reject a literal reading of Scripture. They say Scriptural verses also sanction slavery and order women to be silent in churches.
They base their acceptance of gays on Jesus' habit of accepting the outcasts of his day: women, lepers, religious heretics.
"I don't find anywhere in Scripture where Jesus is talking about homosexuality as a sin," says the Rev. Kim Smith King, senior pastor of North Decatur Presbyterian Church in Atlanta and co-moderator of More Light Presbyterians, a group supporting gay clergy.
Church fights over homosexuality have been so bitter and prolonged that some denominations may split, says the Rev. Kendall Harmon, a leader in a group of conservative Anglicans who have opposed the church's decision to accept an openly gay bishop in a relationship in 2003.
"It's like a couple that's separated and there's very little that the marriage counseling can come up with," Harmon says. "So much mistrust has been created and damage has been done."
How about just stickin' with the Bible? That sounds like a plan.
Well if they actually read the Bible, there is no debate.
Well I see part of their problem right there - 'ya see it's that Druid thing that's confusin' 'em - they're so busy tryin' to find the right solstice angles and moon phases that homosexual is like the least of their concerns.............
"the real mission of the church: helping the poor, the homeless, the community at large."
What a poor fool. He doesn't even know the Church's real mission.
Somebody tore Genesis out of their Bible.
.....What of breakaway churches?
She's sad to see them go, but not so sad that she won't fight for their properties. "The institution cannot give away its birthright and the gifts that belong to future generations. Our desire to reconcile continues, but if (the seceding churches) would prefer to be part of another tradition, then they are welcome to go. They just can't take what doesn't belong to them," she says, leaning forward.
"The church's laws are broad but they are there, and beyond these lines you cannot go. Crossing boundaries has consequences."
Condemnations from Global South primates?
Jefferts Schori steers the discussion to the positive, focusing on the mission she shares with many of the African primates to address the terrible plagues of war, poverty, disease and hunger.
"We can work on these together. Human need is so overwhelming that it seems incredibly sinful to spend time" on church politics.
What she omits: The Anglican Church in Tanzania recently declared itself in "severely impaired communion" with the Episcopal Church. The Archbishop of Uganda said he wouldn't meet with her because of her stance on biblical faith and morality. ....
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-02-04-jefferts-schori-cover_x.htm
So basically they're lying. Well that's mighty Christian of 'em.
L
Their troubles are all self-inflicted. Serves them right for straying from the clear teachings of scripture on the subject of homosexuality and every other "-ality" out there.
The good Reverend needs to go back and read Exodus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers. It can't get much clearer, and you just can't cherry pick the Bible.
So basically they're lying. Well that's mighty Christian of 'em.
Well, those rule against lying are in the OLD Testament (Ten Commandments), don't you see. They don't apply to today anymore. Geez, if we enforce that rule against lying, then we'd have to stone witches and sacrifice goats too, right? (this is sarcasm, please don't send me angry email!)
Wouldn't dream of it.
L
Exactly. Christian churches, who obey the Bible, don't need to weary themselves over the issue, because there is no issue for them. Homosexuals are no more suitable for any position of leadership in the church than pedophiles, rapists, or murderers - or even habitual unrepentant liars. If you believe the Bible, there's no need to debate at all.
Guess that means it is okay
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law?
Luke 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them. 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
The real problem is that they have set themselves as the authority OVER the word of God, they feel free to pronounce it wrong or in error and they will tell you what it would have said if God was to re write the Bible today. In a Church I used to attend I wondered why the new "conservative" minister was unconcerned. I found out when, to allay my objections told me the Moses did not write any of the books of Moses, Oh... except perhaps the Ten Commandments.
He could not give me even one reason to defend this belief he was unable to substantiate his view in any way what so ever. It was what he believed as he had been told so in college.
All the gay clergy/marriage/rights crowd are the same they simply reject the Word of God so have no problem with scripture contradicting then. They just ignore it.
Too many church leaders feel more comfortable caring about "Mother Earth" and the environment and have left everything else behind (if they ever understood it to begin with).
It's all about the property. Otherwise, they would simply start their own churches.
She says as much.
I'm glad this is finally coming to a head.
It's time to fish or cut bait.
You're probably getting closer to what this is really about. There are already alternatives to those who do not like what is happening in their congregations.
For the Presbyterians in the USA who do not approve of the church's stance on homosexuality, they can go to the Presbyterian church of America. For those in the ELCA who are in conflict with what is going on there can go to the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. There are plenty of alternatives for other denominations as well. That is if they are willing to give up their church property. Problem solved.
Exactly.
"But the genial church elder says he'd rather focus on something else — and so should other churches."
That's the problem. The politically-active gays have forced the rest of us to focus on their sexual preference. That this is happening in our churches is ample evidence that they are putting themselves before God.
As in the scouts, no one would care if no one knew. That everyone knows, means they want everyone to know and accept it.
The irony is that those who want to force openly gay men into leadership positions in the scouts are often the ones condemning the Catholic church for the pederasty of the priests, itself a homosexual act. While gay leaders shouldn't be trusted in the clergy (because it is part of "evil" Christianity), they should be in the scouts?
They're also big into saving the planet from global warming. Where is global warming when we need it? These people are fools.
Don't forget Leviticus.
The ELCA won't take a stand and won't follow the Bible. That is why the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is growing as many of us who were born and raised Lutheran realize that the ELCA left us.
This is exactly why we left the ELCA in 2005. Our pastor (who the wife and I had as a student in 8th grade Sunday School) believed the Bible was only as good as how it pertains to today's lifestyle. He left for another congregation and the interim pastor was even worse; preaching from the pulpit how the USA was torturing prisoners.
We left for the LCMS and haven't regretted it at all (it also brings me full circle). On leaving I told the interim that the church was meant to change people's lives; not change itself to suit peoples lives. All I received in return was an exasperated look.
Yeah, and do they think they are fooling God?
See my post #27 immediately below yours: http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/post?id=1779320%2C27
Anyone ever seen a magician work? A flourish, a turn, a stylish move...and you never see the hand that is doing the trick. (Kinda like the Clintons.) "Look here, at my right hand...focus on that one. DON'T LOOK AT MY LEFT! FOCUS ON MY RIGHT!"
By the way, our new, LCMS church celebrated Boy Scout Sunday yesterday. We had three Scouters and 7 scouts, four in uniform. It was great!
Is that before or after he tore Genesis out of it?
When did that become the "real mission" of the church. Maybe the church of feel good humanism.
Happened in our household. Biggest blessing of our lives.
We have friends who have remained at the ELCA congregation although our LCMS congregation sometimes still receives transfers. Most of those are younger families because of our school.
One of our friends sat on the ELCA board that was set up for 'sexuality'; i.e. the board that was to develop a program to 'educate' the masses. It frustrated him no end because he knows the Bible and could not reconcile their intentions with its teachings. He finally resigned from the board.
that's not the "mission" of any church. The mission of the Church is to bring the word of God to its members in order for them to honor and somehow try to find their way to his kingdom....that's it in a nutshell. end of story, nothing else.... all the other things he mentions are byproducts of the mission statement of a church.
Can a gay clergy member become a pastor, yes.... as can a drug addict, adulterer, thief, liar, tax collector, centurion, ....but the sin has to be repented and not thrown in the face of the Lord.
The funny thing is that deep in their hearts they probably know that they are full of cr#p, but can't face the fact that they like to sin, and are somehow doing the "lets make a deal" Christianity. Where you do some good "deed" and the Lord is in your debt to allow the bad behavior and you can skate into heaven. I don't think it's gonna work. I think that the Lord wants ALL of you. He wants to change you to the person that honors the Lord and that person isn't an open homosexual, drug addict, liar, adulterer..etc.... repent the sin, attempt to change and then realize without his help we are all incapable of the transformation needed.
but this thing where you can do good deeds and "put God in debt" is a joke.
Yeah, I know! The year we left, they had a district conclave and we sent our Council President and this retired government employee who always delighted in dropping names of well-known political figures in her conversation. She went on and on about the thoughtful and emotional discussions and proposals on "human sexuality". It was nauseating. After the service, I told her she was full of crap, as were all of her political friends. I haven't talked to her since. I am sure she is still at the forefront of dragging that church into the cess pool.
Yeah. For example, the apostle Paul was distressingly unwilling to compromise in dealing with the Corinthian brother who was shtupping his stepmother.
...it kinda does say something about crack, heroin, alcohol, food, etc..... basically your body was put here by the Lord. You're just a renter. Take care of it, the "real" thing is your soul. That's what infinity and life everlasting is all about. Doing crack may be your way of finding the path to the Lord. I think it's going to be a hard path, but all of our paths are difficult.
my path is that of a liar, hypocritical and prideful man with anger issues. ..... we all have things that might not be outlined specifically in the bible, but in our heart of hearts know is a sin.....
I realize that you're comment was probably sarcasm, but it is actually closer to what some people think than you may believe.
How about "and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error." (Romans 1:27). Or "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality"
(1 Cor 6:9). All are ESV
There's a lot more where this came from. But they have their agenda and will ignore the truth. They are setting themselves up as authority over God. Their sin is heretical and they will answer to God for deceiving man.
Funny how when they run these stories, they seem to talk to members of six denominations exclusively: the Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterian Church of the United States, ELCA, UCCers, and American Baptists.
It's almost like all the other churches - in which the vast majority of Christians worship - don't exist.
I know the type. In our case it was this couple, the wife working at the local community college and the husband teaching at our middle school. Their daughter, who lives a couple hours away but would visit often and come to church, fit the part of an open lesbian. A very 'far left' family. I know for a fact the wife donated to Dean's campaign in 2004.
Anyway, the husband and I both enjoy history; especially that of the Civil War. A friend from the congregation who's more knowledgeable than either of us on the subject, gave a presentation to the men's breakfast club one Saturday. This 'husband' followed up with questions that tried to trip up my friend, then got into an argument with me over a battle in Missouri that he insisted occurred in 1864 and I stated one happened there in 1862 (I'd just read about it in Bruce Catton). He got very hot about it because he was originally from the area.
Well, he looked into the issue (I'm sure with the intent of proving me wrong) and found out that there were actually two rather small engagements there; one in 1862 and another in 1864. Instead of calling me and acknowledging the facts, he emailed the friend who gave the presentation and asked him to forward the email to me.
You'd think they'd look at the experience of the Catholic Church in the U.S. with homosexual clergy preying on teenage boys.
But even these liberals would look the other way as these pastors began working their way through every teenage boy in the congregation. Or worse, they'd tell their sons to stop being "homophobic" and submit to the pastor's wishes.
because leaders can't seem to devise a solution that satisfies both sides.
Caring for the poor IS a mission of the Church as Jesus very clearly taught. It was the failure in this mission that opened the door to the welfare state and all its depredations.
Caring for the LOST is the mission of the church. The poor will always be with us.
The "Mainline" churches are to Christianity what the MSM are to news.
They think & act like the only ones that matter, when in fact the truth is totally beyond their sphere—and safely in the hands of newer, solidly Conservative outlets (Evangelical churches and the New Media).
Excellent post!!
The lost are often poor.
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