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Muslim Woman Told She Must Remove Veil To Testify In Detroit Court
All Headline News ^ | 10/23/06 | Mort Karman

Posted on 10/23/2006 11:33:19 PM PDT by bruinbirdman

Ginnah Muhammad, 42, is a devout Muslim, so as such, she feels she was forced to choose between her small claims court case and her religion, Friday.

Judge Paul Paruk, in Hamtramck District Court, told Muhammad she had to take off her niqab; a scarf and veil, which covers her face and head except for her eyes, or he would dismiss her case. The judge said he needed to see her face so he could judge her truthfulness when she testified.

Paruk told the Detroit Free press he offered to let Muhammad, who was born in the United States and converted to Islam at the age of 10, wear her niqab in court, except when she testified. "I felt I was trying to accommodate her as best I could," Judge Paruk said.

Paruk said that as a fact finder, he has to see the face of a person testifying.

Judges have leeway on how to run their courtroom, in Michigan, and there have been no rule specifications regarding religious attire.

"My job in the courtroom is to make a determination as to the veracity of somebody's claim," the judge said. "As part of that you need to identify the witness and you need to look at the witness and watch how they testify."

Muhammad had gone to small claims court to contest a rental car company charging her $2,750 to repair a vehicle she had leased after thieves broke into it.

"I just feel so sad," Muhammad said. "I feel that the court is there for justice for us. I don't feel that the court recognized me as a person that needed justice. I feel I can't trust the court."

Metro Detroit has one of this country's largest Muslim populations.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; US: Michigan
KEYWORDS: hamtramck; hijab; muslim; niqab; rop; veil

1 posted on 10/23/2006 11:33:20 PM PDT by bruinbirdman
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To: bruinbirdman

Why that's why we should just establish some Sharia courts to enforce her rights as a woman. /sarc


2 posted on 10/23/2006 11:36:36 PM PDT by peyton randolph (No man knows the day nor the hour of The Coming of The Great White Handkerchief.)
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To: bruinbirdman

RACISM!


3 posted on 10/23/2006 11:37:26 PM PDT by Dallas59 (Muslims Are Only Guests In Western Countries)
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To: peyton randolph

Next traffic ticket I get...I'm going to court with sparklers on my head...


4 posted on 10/23/2006 11:39:05 PM PDT by Dallas59 (Muslims Are Only Guests In Western Countries)
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To: peyton randolph

Under our laws, you get to drive, and file a case against a business (which might just be owned by a man)...

Talk about owned...


5 posted on 10/23/2006 11:42:02 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: bruinbirdman
I had a Muslim woman knock on my door this week end, out campaigning

Rather than open the door to talk to her, I chatted thru the door's mail slot so she would not feel uncomfortable.

6 posted on 10/23/2006 11:43:07 PM PDT by llevrok (Spock / Kirk '08)
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To: Dallas59
Next traffic ticket I get...I'm going to court with sparklers on my head...

I propose a ski mask.
7 posted on 10/23/2006 11:44:00 PM PDT by Jaysun (Idiot Muslims. They're just dying to have sex orgies.)
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To: bruinbirdman

What happens when she's asked to put her hand on the bible and swear to tell the truth, nothing but the truth, so help her god?



8 posted on 10/23/2006 11:44:37 PM PDT by Proud_USA_Republican (We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good. - Hillary Clinton)
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To: Jaysun

That might not be such a good idea of your on trial for commiting a crime such as robbery or murder.



9 posted on 10/23/2006 11:45:40 PM PDT by Proud_USA_Republican (We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good. - Hillary Clinton)
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To: Proud_USA_Republican
That might not be such a good idea of your on trial for commiting a crime such as robbery or murder.

Well f*** it, maybe I'm part of a bizarre ski cult that hates Americans, in which case I'd be protected by the document that Americans hold most dear.
10 posted on 10/23/2006 11:47:58 PM PDT by Jaysun (Idiot Muslims. They're just dying to have sex orgies.)
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To: bruinbirdman

Just curious.........do banks have a problem with this? /sarc


11 posted on 10/23/2006 11:52:03 PM PDT by Just Lori (Thank you, United States Air Force! Sixty years of awesome service!)
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To: bruinbirdman

It's entirely reasonable - and the judge has full authority - to demand to see a witness's face while she's testifying. And as a matter of justice, Ms. Muhammad, don't the people you're contesting deserve to have the judge be as thorough as possible?


12 posted on 10/23/2006 11:55:47 PM PDT by Irish Rose (Will work for chocolate.)
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To: bruinbirdman
"I just feel so sad," Muhammad said. "I feel that the court is there for justice for us. I don't feel that the court recognized me as a person that needed justice. I feel I can't trust the court."

YOU feel sad?!!

How about me?

I have to sit through the spectacle of a free-born woman who voluntarily submitted herself to the slavery of Islam, then complains about not trusting the courts?

How about the courts not trusting YOU, Muhammad? After all, it is YOU hiding your face.

Which is NOT reqired by any Islamic law or rule - just custom and cultural practice in benighted lands. But not in the USA.

Take the frikkinn veil off, Ms. Muhammad, and join the human race.

13 posted on 10/23/2006 11:56:05 PM PDT by John Valentine
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To: bruinbirdman

14 posted on 10/24/2006 12:01:35 AM PDT by Cobra64 (Why is the War on Terror being managed by the DEFENSE Department?)
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To: peyton randolph

We need to set up a fund for buying one way airplane tickets to a muslim country where unhappy, disaffected muslimas can live in peace.


15 posted on 10/24/2006 12:06:06 AM PDT by x_plus_one
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To: Dallas59
Next traffic ticket I get...I'm going to court with sparklers on my head...

Try to be original for once and quit stealing my ideas, wouldja?

16 posted on 10/24/2006 12:06:36 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Peace begins in the womb.)
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To: Proud_USA_Republican

Swearing on the Bible is no longer permitted, in court as I recall we just swore to tell the truth, no God was involved in it.

It was kinda like an empty feeling, why bother to swear at all?


17 posted on 10/24/2006 12:07:54 AM PDT by 2 cents (Maybe the crusaders had a point?)
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To: Spanaway Lori
Just curious.........do banks have a problem with this? /sarc

My local credit union does, and the policy is posted right at the entrance.

People in the United States have broad leeway in practicing their religion, but there's nothing dictating that society is obliged to accommodate them. I could just as easily go into a courtroom as a witness and say it's against my religion to give testimony and the effect would be the same as what we're seeing here.

18 posted on 10/24/2006 12:09:41 AM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: Jeff Chandler

Ok...ok....ok....My Seeing Eye Monkey will wear them...


19 posted on 10/24/2006 12:10:54 AM PDT by Dallas59 (Muslims Are Only Guests In Western Countries)
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To: Dallas59
Ok...ok....ok....My Seeing Eye Monkey will wear them...

Dang it!

20 posted on 10/24/2006 12:15:09 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Peace begins in the womb.)
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To: bruinbirdman

I don't feel that the court recognized me as a person


priceless...

eh, let me see, that would be correct, because the whole point of the hijab is that you should not be seen as a person or a woman..if she has that issue, take it up with the saudis...


21 posted on 10/24/2006 12:24:55 AM PDT by Irishguy (How do ya LIKE THOSE APPLES!!!!)
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To: Mr Ramsbotham

The Quakers, I believe, thought swearing wrong under all circumstances. Other Christians, though by no means all, have felt similarly down the years. The law provides for that scruple by allowing people to "affirm" rather than swear.


22 posted on 10/24/2006 12:26:28 AM PDT by Irish Rose (Will work for chocolate.)
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To: Irish Rose
The Quakers, I believe, thought swearing wrong under all circumstances. Other Christians, though by no means all, have felt similarly down the years. The law provides for that scruple by allowing people to "affirm" rather than swear.

Reminds me of that funny Three Stooges episode, "Disorder in the Court." The clerk asks Curly "Do you swear ..." and Curly replies, "No, but I know all the words!"

23 posted on 10/24/2006 12:29:25 AM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: bruinbirdman

"I just feel so sad," Muhammad said. "I feel that the court is there for justice for us. I don't feel that the court recognized me as a person that needed justice. I feel I can't trust the court."

Hey there Muhammad nobody can recognize you with your veil on. You could be anyone under there for all anyone knows. If justice is so important to you take the veil off. I think this is BS. Shes worried about justice maybe she ought to go to a Muslim country and see just what justice women get over there. I hate whiners. The judge has every right to see her face as does the person she was contesting.


24 posted on 10/24/2006 1:00:04 AM PDT by pandoraou812 ( barbaric with zero tolerance and dilligaf?)
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To: bruinbirdman
Cool beans! The Muslims are intent on trying our patience, already worn thin by the murder of a few thousand Americans by Muslims. Let's get it on!

France has been dealing with this junk for awhile. Britain is stirred up over Jack Straw's insistence Muslim women remove their veil in his government office when they speak with him, and then there's the Muslim teacher or aide that was dismissed for wearing a veil in the classroom. Well hot damn, Turkey with a 98% Muslim population, does know how to deal with this crap. Everyone, male and female alike is prohibited by law, the wearing of religious headcover and theo-political symbolic garments for both genders in government buildings, schools, and universities.

We can do that one better by prohibiting these articles of clothing on any government property. Let these Muslim try getting around rooftop to rooftop, or swinging from trees instead of using our government owned streets highways and bridges.
25 posted on 10/24/2006 1:12:54 AM PDT by backtothestreets
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To: backtothestreets

That teacher was dismissed because she was teaching language. The kids couldn't understand her without seeing her lips. Religion of Morons.


26 posted on 10/24/2006 1:57:06 AM PDT by peyton randolph (No man knows the day nor the hour of The Coming of The Great White Handkerchief.)
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To: bruinbirdman

People who cover themselves in bags shouldn't be driving. They should be locked at home with their cl______ cut off.


27 posted on 10/24/2006 2:48:18 AM PDT by tkathy (Some of the 9/11 hijackers were smiling taxi drivers.)
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A Judge can also order you to take your hat off in court.

These people have to be told strongly that hiding their faces is a sign of disrespect and suspicious in the West.

Its offensive and they wont get support from the majority for such antics. If they want to behave like that, they can go back to the places where its tolerated.
28 posted on 10/24/2006 3:04:09 AM PDT by wodinoneeye
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To: x_plus_one
We need to set up a fund for buying one way airplane tickets to a muslim country where unhappy, disaffected muslimas can live in peace.

Hopefully they bring some liberals along with them.
29 posted on 10/24/2006 3:23:58 AM PDT by proud_yank (Socialism - An Answer In Search Of A Question For Over 100 Years)
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To: llevrok

I almost sprayed milk on my monitor reading that!


30 posted on 10/24/2006 3:24:35 AM PDT by proud_yank (Socialism - An Answer In Search Of A Question For Over 100 Years)
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To: 2 cents

The witness has the choice of swearing on the bible or Affirming without the bible.

"Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing bujt the truth."


31 posted on 10/24/2006 3:41:50 AM PDT by tort_feasor (FreeRepublic.com - Tommorrow's News, Today)
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To: Spanaway Lori

Which brings up an interesting thought. With all the cameras around on the streets their identity is kept secret, even from crime. Maybe we all should be wearing head cover only showing our eyes for privacy. It would sure render the cameras at stop-lights, etc useless. Prove it was me that ran that light when you can't see a face. LOL


32 posted on 10/24/2006 3:42:14 AM PDT by Snoopers-868th
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To: bruinbirdman

She should have the option of wearing just the veil.


33 posted on 10/24/2006 4:18:39 AM PDT by tomzz
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To: llevrok
Rather than open the door to talk to her, I chatted thru the door's mail slot so she would not feel uncomfortable.

Only your eyes were uncovered by the mail slot. A wooden burqah. Very thoughtful.

34 posted on 10/24/2006 4:22:52 AM PDT by Pearls Before Swine (Is /sarc really needed?)
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To: bruinbirdman

Rioting soon?


35 posted on 10/24/2006 4:25:12 AM PDT by AD from SpringBay (We have the government we allow and deserve.)
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To: bruinbirdman

I thought that females of that faith where not allowed to drive. What is she doing with a rental car?


36 posted on 10/24/2006 4:30:43 AM PDT by Frankss
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To: bruinbirdman

This is strange. She does not want to remove her viel because of her religion. But what does Islam say about the rights of women and testifying in court? Also, this cannot be the first time ever an Islamic woman had to testify in court. Why is this happening now?


37 posted on 10/24/2006 4:40:35 AM PDT by 7thson (I've got a seat at the big conference table! I'm gonna paint my logo on it!)
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To: Cobra64

Man, where did you get that graphic? I am laughing like mad! 8-)


38 posted on 10/24/2006 4:43:03 AM PDT by 7thson (I've got a seat at the big conference table! I'm gonna paint my logo on it!)
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To: 7thson
Man, where did you get that graphic? I am laughing like mad! 8-)

Feel free to share it with your muslim girlfriends (LOL).


39 posted on 10/24/2006 10:33:20 AM PDT by Cobra64 (Why is the War on Terror being managed by the DEFENSE Department?)
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To: Frankss

females can't drive in saudi arabia.

besides, she is a convert. if she was born and raised in an islamic country then she would know that they expect you to remove a veil to get a photo id and when you appear in court.

what pisses me off is that she is just a squeaky wheel. she doesn't even understand what civil rights means. it doesn't mean special treatment. it means equality.

i'm from hamtramck and now she's giving people the bright idea that they can just show up in court with their face covered and expect to be taken seriously.


40 posted on 10/25/2006 8:12:23 PM PDT by hamtramck
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To: Dallas59

The key difference between sparklers and hijab, niqab, abaya etc. . . is that one is a religious obligation. Many American women believe that it is their religious obligation to cover their hair. I haven't met anyone who feels religiously obligated to wear sparklers on their head.


41 posted on 11/30/2006 9:05:35 AM PST by Cwilken
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