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To: GAB-1955; ninenot; sittnick; steve50; Hegemony Cricket; Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; FITZ; ...
Just to let you know, tu quoque is not a legal defense in war crimes trials. A person is tried for the acts he did, not his enemies'.

Up to a point. When the accusers and "witnesses" are shown to be guilty of much greater crimes, if they are granted respect and immunity, then tribunal CONVICTS itself as being a show trial or kangaroo court. Maybe not in the eyes of the law but in the eyes of all honest people and in the eyes of God.

I am curious, what is your view of Moscow show trials of 1930s?

5 posted on 10/20/2006 6:01:27 AM PDT by A. Pole (Milosevic: "And when they behead your own people [...] then you will know what this was all about.")
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To: A. Pole; kronos77

Trying to litigate war is a mistake, it is a basic misunderstanding of what war is. War is the state of affairs that exists when a conflict is beyond litigation.

Simply stated, when rule of law no longer holds you are in a state of war, which persists until the facts on the ground have been changed sufficient to allow peacetime laws and institutions to resume.

There is a place for war-trials at the end of a conflict, but these are not normal trials, they are an extention of the war, they are required as a part of the transition from war back to peacetime law. War prisoners, for example, who are no longer a threat at the end of the war are typically released by both sides. Certain individuals that the victorious power considers a permanent threat, however, will traditionally be hanged or shot. A war-trial documents the reasons for hanging him. It is not about guilt or innocence, typically the decision to hang him is a political or military one. The trial merely establishes the "why", sometimes the real one, sometimes the pretext.

The Allies at the end of the Second World War reasoned that some members of the Nazi regime could not be allowed to go free, ever. The Nuremberg Trials documented the reasons for hanging them. It could not be about legal guilt or innocence, because as agents of the former government, everything they did was "legal". But these were war-trials, part of the transition back to peace.

The trial of Saddam is similar in nature; Saddam can never be allowed to go free, he is a danger even in exile, he is a danger even in his cell as insurgents plan attacks to free him. But his crimes, which shock the conscience of normal people, were not legal crimes under his rule, because in essence he was the law. But this is a war-trial, the decision to hang him is a military and political one, and the purpose of the trial is not to determine his "guilt", but rather to document why he must hang.

This court is trying to establish its authority over countries which had never agreed to its authority, and to exert an authority it has not won on the battlefield. It is trying to litigate a war that is 10 years in the past. But you can not litigate war, war exists precisely when conflicts have gone beyond the reach of any court, war is by its nature extra-legal. The time to deal with a Haradinaj or any of the Serb officers currently on trial is right there on the battlefield. There is a time for war-trials in the immediate aftermath of a war, as a way of closing out old business. But this war is 10 years past, and there have been far greater crimes committed that will never be tried by any earthly court. Does the Hague propose to arrest and try the Sudanese government, for example? They have the blood of millions on their hands. This guy is accused of killing 14 people during a very ugly war. Any Sudanese worth his salt will laugh at such a puny crime as this.


6 posted on 10/20/2006 10:11:39 AM PDT by marron
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To: A. Pole
The Moscow show trials of the 1930s were entirely different in character from the ICTY. Flawed as it is, the ICTY has tried Serbs, Croats, and Kosovars; there has been independent defenses, and impartial judges. I don't like the European model of trials as a whole but the quality of the ICTY is markedly different than the show trials.

I see complaints that the ICTY doesn't punish Bosnians and Croats enough; then I see arguments that they aren't valid trials at all. You can't have it both ways.

In the eyes of God, we're all guilty. This is why Christ came to Earth, to live a sinless life and die for our sins. Human justice has always been flawed, I fear. But at least someone is trying to be just in this case.
7 posted on 10/21/2006 4:37:54 AM PDT by GAB-1955 (being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the Kingdom of Heaven....)
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