White House loot anchors fight over sunken bounty [War of 1812]

The Hamilton Spectator ^ | 22. September 2006 | Alison Auld

[1rudeboy]

By Alison Auld
The Canadian Press
HALIFAX (Sep 22, 2006)

A stash of loot possibly stolen from the White House in the early 1800s is at the centre of an international dispute over who owns the bounty that now rests in a watery grave off the Nova Scotia coast.

A U.S. exploration company has laid claim to the bounty on what it suspects is the HMS Fantome, a navy brig that was loaded with goods British and Canadian soldiers made off with after ransacking the White House and Capitol buildings during the War of 1812.

The company, Sovereign Exploration Associates International Inc., has conducted dives on the site off Prospect, N.S., and planned to recover some of the thousands of coins and other historic artifacts it has seen on the ocean floor.

But the pursuit of the plunder was stalled recently when the British government claimed that it owns the famed naval vessel that went down in a fierce storm in November 1814.

"These two particular warships are under international law, considered property of the British government," Elizabeth Whiting, a spokesperson with the British High Commission, said yesterday in reference to the Fantome and HMS Tilbury, another wreck off Cape Breton.

"Anything on the ship would be British."

The British are arguing that the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea gives them title to the Royal Navy warships and that the Nova Scotia government cannot hand out licences to companies hoping to dive on the sites.

Curtis Sprouse of Sovereign said his company is rejecting the claim that international law gives ownership to the British.

The Massachusetts company had applied for a special permit that would allow it to recover material from the site of the Fantome shipwreck, but it was rejected by the province when the British filed their objection.

The province issues the permits and licences under the Treasure Trove Act, a unique piece of legislation that allows people to dive on and recover material taken from historic shipwrecks.

Wendy Barnable, a spokesperson with the provincial Department of Tourism, Culture and Heritage, said the company's bid to obtain a permit was turned down because of Britain's opposition to the project.

Barnable said it's now up to Sovereign Exploration to consult with British officials to resolve the matter, adding that she wasn't aware of this happening in the province before.

Barnable said the company still holds a licence that allows it to dive on the site, but that it can't recover anything from it.

According to a preliminary report by Le Chameau Explorations Ltd., the company which holds the permits to explore the site, divers have already recovered cannon and musket shot, copper buttons bearing the Royal Navy symbol, pottery, tools, and ships' nails and bolts.

Divers also recovered copper sheathing, embossed with a distinctive English marking that indicates military or Crown property.

Under provincial law, a company can retain items that are deemed to be treasures, but must pay a 10 per cent royalty on them. Any artifacts recovered from a site must be handed over to the province.

Sovereign Exploration hasn't confirmed whether the vessel is the Fantome, but said recovered material fits the time frame and there is debris from several other vessels in the area.

The Fantome was leading a convoy of ships back to Halifax after British and Canadian troops routed their enemy, sending them fleeing while the invading army looted and then torched the president's house, the capital and all other public buildings.

The substantial haul was loaded on to a handful of boats that set sail for Halifax, a busy British garrison at the time.

The Fantome ran into a vicious storm on Nov. 24, 1814, and was thought to have gone down after accidentally heading into a shallow shoal.

John Wesley Chisholm, an independent filmmaker, said "once you leave the shore, and especially once you go underwater, the ocean is like the wild west of the 21st century."

[1rudeboy]

Related 2005 thread:

White House loot may be in shipwreck.

[1rudeboy]

ping

[digger48]

Will our great-great-great-great grandchildren find all the silverware (and W's) buried in the ruins at Chappaqua?

[ConservativeMind]

Ping.

[Jotmo]

bttt

[fanfan]

Right after 'Talk like a Pirate Day" too!

Canada ping.

Please send me a FReepmail to get on or off this Canada ping list.

[Arkinsaw]

According to the Treaty of Ghent, the British are supposed to return seized property. The ship is property of the British government...they have a treaty obligation to return the contents to the United States government.

[GMMAC]

OK America, here's the deal:

Take whatever you like provided you also take back every last stinking Vietnam-era draft dodger & military deserter infesting Canada for the past over 3 decades!

No, didn't think you would.

[Enterprise]

Well, give us all the loot first as a sign of good faith, and then we'll enter into negotiations for the rest.

[Former Proud Canadian]

You don't get the Treaty of Ghent quoted on many other internet forums. Isn't FR great?

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

De loot belongs to me country und not de scurvy limeys aarrrgghhh

[GMMAC]

"Well, give us all the loot first as a sign of good faith, and then we'll enter into negotiations for the rest."

Sounds fair.
Can "the rest" include some of them there famous Yankee magic beans, h'yuk ????

[ozzymandus]

Nice to see crime not paying, for once.

[Enterprise]

Gimme the loot first, and then we'll talk later about any peripheral issues.

[lexington minuteman 1775]

Well, since the Brits "stole it" from US. Don't we have some claim to it?
I mean some of this stuff would be great in the Smithsonian?

[1rudeboy]

It would make an excellent property/admiralty/international law exam question, I'll tell you that.

[GMMAC]

H'mmmm ... guess I'll instruct the former dregs of American society to stop packing their bags.

(... but sure woulda liked to have had them magic beans)

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks!

[SunkenCiv]

The British are arguing that the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea gives them title to the Royal Navy warships and that the Nova Scotia government cannot hand out licences to companies hoping to dive on the sites. Curtis Sprouse of Sovereign said his company is rejecting the claim that international law gives ownership to the British.

Oh, and while we're on the subject, centuries-old sunken Spanish treasure ships are from the Spanish Navy and property of Spain, and Roman Empire naval wrecks are the property of Italy, and...

[Professional Engineer]

ping

[headsonpikes]

Well, give us all the loot first as a sign of good faith, and then we'll enter into negotiations for the rest.

21st Century Sam Slick alert!

And don't try to sell us any durn clocks, neither!

[Mr. Silverback]

Dive ping!

[Mr. Silverback]

Gotta give this one to the Brits. Warships are not available for salvage. I don't care if they were carrying George Washington's coffin, the law is the law. After all, when the French wanted to plunder CSS Alabama off their coast, our State Department threw a fit.

[Mr. Silverback]

Ping!

[Mr. Silverback]

Take whatever you like provided you also take back every last stinking Vietnam-era draft dodger & military deserter infesting Canada for the past over 3 decades!

Ain't no loot worth that, friend.

[Mr. Silverback]

To be frank, I always wondered why the Spanish didn't try to claim any of the treasures that came from sunken galleons in American and Caribbean waters.

[SunkenCiv]

I think they tried with the Atocha.

[GMMAC]

Maybe America should try to cut a deal directly with Brits?

Maybe, say, offer to let them have just Massachusetts back?

[Mr. Silverback]

Maybe, say, offer to let them have just Massachusetts back?

I like the way you think.

[PzLdr]

Just give them Teddy Kennedy. He's equal in weight to the plunder - and the ship. And he's been under water before.

[Rte66]

Not for long, he wasn't. Not long enough, at any rate.

[Southack]

"The Fantome ran into a vicious storm on Nov. 24, 1814, and was thought to have gone down after accidentally heading into a shallow shoal."

The Fantome, of course, was carrying the loot from the sacking of Washington, D.C.

A hurricane promptly sank the Fantome before it could deliver its loot.

The British army had invaded Washington, D.C. and set fire to the city on August 24, 1814.

One day later, a massive line of severe thunderstorms spawned a tornado in Washington that hit the British barracks, killing numerous British soldiers and wounding many more. It caused so much damage to the British forces that they were forced, by the weather, to retreat out of Washington, D.C.

Heavy rain then extinguished the fires that burned throughout Washington, neither Americans nor British being there to douse any.

Don't mess with the U.S.

[SunkenCiv]

Just adding this to the GGG catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[Irish_Thatcherite]

*reads title*

Time for Johnny Horton...

In 1814 we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip.
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans
And we caught the bloody British in the town of New Orleans.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

We looked down the river and we see'd the British come.
And there must have been a hundred of'em beatin' on the drum.
They stepped so high and they made the bugles ring.
We stood by our cotton bales and didn't say a thing.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

Old Hickory said we could take 'em by surprise
If we didn't fire our muskets 'til we looked 'em in the eye
We held our fire 'til we see'd their faces well.
Then we opened up with squirrel guns and really gave 'em ... well

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.**

We fired our cannon 'til the barrel melted down.
So we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round.
We filled his head with cannon balls, and powdered his behind
And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin' on
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn't catch 'em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

[1rudeboy]

That reminds me. What happened to the Chalmette Battlefield/National Cemetary and the Beauregard House? Last I heard it was all under water.

[patton]

Dang. Earworm.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Is the reference to 'underwater' a trick to get me to post "Sink The Bismarck" or "Rubin James"? :-P

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Earworm?

[patton]

When a song gets stuck in your head.

[Irish_Thatcherite]

Ah... at least it isn't that Milkshake song....

[patton]

Your turn...

[Irish_Thatcherite]

I already have that song, but thanks! ;)

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

Article I

There shall be a firm and universal peace between His Britannic Majesty and the United States, and between their respective countries, territories, cities, towns, and people, of every degree, without exception of places or persons. All hostilities, both by sea and land, shall cease as soon as this treaty shall have been ratified by both parties, as hereinafter mentioned. All territory, places, and possessions whatsoever, taken by either party from the other during the war, or which may be taken after the signing of this treaty, excepting only the islands hereinafter mentioned, shall be restored without delay, and without causing any destruction or carrying away any of the artillery or other public property originally captured in the said forts or places, and which shall remain therein upon the exchange of the ratifications of this treaty, or any slaves or other private property. And all archives, records, deeds, and papers, either of a public nature or belonging to private persons, which, in the course of the war, may have fallen into the hands of the officers of either party, shall be, as far as may be practicable, forthwith restored and delivered to the proper authorities and persons to whom they respectively belong.

If it is loot from the White House then it is ours and we have it in writting.

Canada can sue the UK for the value of it I suppose.

[SoCal Pubbie]

Okay, this is a perfect time to drag out and repost an oldy but goody from my old business associate, the late great Turk Ursin, ex seabee, from Chicago.

When in the Navy, British sailors would be drinking with the Yanks in some bar in a foreign port, and they'd get to talking about Navy life. Eventually, the discussion would get to their respective service's uniforms. The Limeys would ask him why he had three stripes on his sleeve. He'd point to the first and say "That's for the Revolutionary War." Gesturing toward the second, he go on "That one's for the War of 1812". He'd take a swig of his beer, go quiet, and wait for the inevitable question. The Brit would ask what the third one meant and Turk would reply "That one's to show you we'll kick your ass anytime you want to try it again".

That's when the fights broke out.

[Tulsa Brian]

The Brits can salvage and return to us the loot takes as per treaty stipulations. What's hard about this?

[Mr. Silverback]

I wasn't clear enough in my post. All I'm saying is that only the British government has a right to the wreck. They should return any loot they recover, but for sure there shouldn't be any salvagers working that wreck. In my mind the discussion of Americn artifacts only clouds the issue.

[Mr. Silverback]

And he's been under water before.

A&E's Investigative Reports did a documentary and concluded that he wasn't in the car, he bailed out somewhere before the bridge so the cops would pull her over without him. Her injuries prove she was in the driver's seat.

That doesn't make him any better a person, but it explains some things.