New Insight into How Eyes Form in Embryos

livescience ^ | 30 August 2006 | By Andrea Thompson

[flevit]

Like tiny automatons, the cells that form a fish embryo's eyes are chemically programmed to individually amass at the site where the eyes will develop, according to a new study that contradicts traditional views of how organs develop before birth.

The study was done only on fish eyes and might or might not apply to humans.

"We think organs might be forming by the individual movement of cells," says Martina Rembold, of the European Molecular Biology Laboratory and the study's lead author.

Scientists previously thought that the eyes formed as cells at the sides of the tube-like structure that eventually forms the embryo's head and brain collectively bulged out—like blowing up the ears of a Mickey Mouse balloon, Rembold said. But she and her colleagues learned that the cells actually independently travel from the center of the tube out to the site of eye formation.

[js1138]

Most things that appear immensely complicated assemble via rather simple algorithms. Things like termite mounds and beehives.

[Mamzelle]

Scientists previously thought... bump

[jennyp]

Cool - it's kinda like swarming behavior.

Doesn't the cerebral cortex develop in a similar fashion, with juvenile neuron cells (or neuron stem cells, I forget) migrating up to the surface from some structure in the interior?

[MooseMan]

Among all the senses that organisms possess, vision is perhaps the most varied in all the animal kingdom. Millions of years of evolution have produced more than ten different animal vision systems, each perfectly tailored to suit the needs of its owner.

Sounds almost like it was designed or something.

[flevit]

mmm even termites mounds and beehives where intelligently designed, but feel free to duplicate this so-called "rather simple" algorith that forms the eye, or the one that is able to self replicate and build hexagonal wax structures.

[jennyp]

...or the way creos & evos swarm to these threads? :-)

[generally]

Makes sense.

Some scientists believe that the eyes are just an extension of the brain. Others believe that the brain is just an extension of the eyes!

[flevit]

algorithms even

[SoldierDad]

Almost? I'd say intelligent design is definetly at work.

[cripplecreek]

Interesting when you think of fish like flounder that begin life with eyes on both sides of their heads.

[js1138]

Algore ithms even.

[jennyp]

mmm even termites mounds and beehives where intelligently designed, but feel free to duplicate this so-called "rather simple" algorith that forms the eye, or the one that is able to self replicate and build hexagonal wax structures.

They're all over, if you will but search for them.

[SoldierDad]

And some people believe that both are important organs in the ability to form cohesive thought.

[Paloma_55]

A termite mound is not capable of distinguishing light from dark, red from blue, and communicating it in a pattern that is recognizeable by a brain....lets not even talk about the complexity of a brain.

God is one SMAAAAARRRT and wonderful being!

[flevit]

"lock box" ????

[js1138]

I didn't say the eye is not complex. I said it appears to assemble from a small set of rules.

[Elpasser]

It's just the product of random mutation. See, once upon a time, when fish had no eyes, one of the fish had a cell that genetically mutated so that it migrated to this particular spot and allowed vision. And then there were a few thousand other helpful mutations as well.

Couldn't possibly be evidence of intelligent design!

[Paloma_55]

I realize that.

As an engineer, I find some of the most brilliant designs come from a small, but well developed set of rules.

[flevit]

I didn't see anything that was comparable to the eye, or self-replicating hexagonal wax-structure building things caused by algorithms, or are you suggesting that it took NO-intelligence to develop the "boids" computer models

[B-Chan]

Most things that appear immensely complicated assemble via rather simple algorithms. Things like integrated circuit chips, wristwatches, works of art...

...oh, wait. Those things are all created by an intelligent mind...

[js1138]

Actually there is little in common between watches and living things, particularly in the way they assemble.

[flevit]

yea we don't have the intelligence yet to build autonomous self replicating things.

if you did invent such things would you expect lauds of "brilliant" or ridicule of "absence of intelligence?

[nmh]

"I'd say intelligent design is definitely at work."

Now watch ... the evolutionists will try their darnedest to convince you with millions or is it now billions of years ... eyes simply evolved out of some chemical soup. Just happened! Given enough time, according to evolution, anything can "evolve".

LOL!

Evolution is looking more and more pathetic as genuine knowledge trickles out. Only a godless person could hang on to the hypothesis that God didn't create all we see and don't see. It's simply not possible for LIFE to evolve out of inanimate chemicals - ABSURD on its face.

When all else fails, such as their "evidence" (LOL) then name calling starts. They truly believe they can insult you into submission. It only proves how shallow and unthinking they are fueled by fantastical emotions rather than objective science and facts.

[Elpasser]

"When all else fails, such as their "evidence" (LOL) then name calling starts. They truly believe they can insult you into submission. It only proves how shallow and unthinking they are fueled by fantastical emotions rather than objective science and facts."

BINGO! You've got it. The dirty little secret is that evolution is nothing more than evangelical religion.

[js1138]

if you did invent such things would you expect lauds of "brilliant" or ridicule of "absence of intelligence?

Depends. Wolfram has been working with interesting algorithms that produce complex outcomes. One of their characteristics is you can't predict the outcomes. You run the program and see.

So if you were designing with this kind of algorithm you would have to make modifications without knowing the results in advance. Cut, try and keep the winners.

[oldleft]

Evolution doesn't claim that God didn't create the universe, it claims that evolution's the process by which life came to be what it is today. Whether or not God had a direct hand in that process or was liaise fair after creation is a theological debate, not a scientific one.

[nmh]

Me: "When all else fails, such as their "evidence" (LOL) then name calling starts. They truly believe they can insult you into submission. It only proves how shallow and unthinking they are fueled by fantastical emotions rather than objective science and facts."

Elpassers's response to a selective cut and paste of my response to you: " BINGO! You've got it. The dirty little secret is that evolution is nothing more than evangelical religion.

Me: Now the PROPER CONTEXT of MY reply to you, SoldierDad easily found in Post 24 on this thread:

SoldierDad's quote that I commented on :

"I'd say intelligent design is definitely at work."

Now watch ... the evolutionists will try their darnedest to convince you with millions or is it now billions of years ... eyes simply evolved out of some chemical soup. Just happened! Given enough time, according to evolution, anything can "evolve".

LOL!

Evolution is looking more and more pathetic as genuine knowledge trickles out. Only a godless person could hang on to the hypothesis that God didn't create all we see and don't see. It's simply not possible for LIFE to evolve out of inanimate chemicals - ABSURD on its face.
When all else fails, such as their "evidence" (LOL) then name calling starts. They truly believe they can insult you into submission. It only proves how shallow and unthinking they are fueled by fantastical emotions rather than objective science and facts.

---

See what I mean, SoldierDad?

LAME, LAZY responses that are as DISHONEST as their evolutionary beliefs. Evolution is a laughable farce and always will be despite these silly cut and paste twisting of replies. They can't address the issue because they have NO facts and NO knowledge since their BELIEFS are NOT based on SCIENCE and totally at ODDS with the Laws of Science.

[uncbob]

It's simply not possible for LIFE to evolve out of inanimate chemicals - ABSURD on its face.

What did God create it from

[nmh]

"Evolution doesn't claim that God didn't create the universe, it claims that evolution's the process by which life came to be what it is today. Whether or not God had a direct hand in that process or was liaise fair after creation is a theological debate, not a scientific one."

Life doesn't "evolve".

Evidence SCREAMS that a CREATOR, GOD created LIFE. Life doesn't just happen over millions or billions of years. I don't know how many times evidence has to surface that shows how ridiculous that hypothesis is.

[nmh]

"What did God create it from."

He simply SPOKE it into existence.

You see, God is a pretty smart fellow. Your limited thinking doesn't compare with the genius of God. Is it so hard for you to grasp that Someone else is SUPERIOR to YOU?

[oldleft]

I haven't seen any evidence. I've seen intuitive things which may suggest a creator, but never any evidence.

[layman]

the cells that form a fish embryo's eyes are chemically programmed to individually amass at the site where the eyes will develop

Hmmmmmm. Very interesting. When they get around to investigating how A-holes are amassed I'd like to volunteer the services of my brother-in-law who is a perfect A-hole. He has been chemically programmed to annoy everything and everybody.

[uncbob]

Where did he come from

[uncbob]

Your limited thinking doesn't compare with the genius of God. Is it so hard for you to grasp that Someone else is SUPERIOR to YOU?

You met him eh ?

[PatrickHenry]

Evolution Ping The List-O-Links

A conservative, pro-evolution science list, now with over 390 names. See the list's explanation, then FReepmail to be added or dropped. To assist beginners: But it's "just a theory", Evo-Troll's Toolkit, and How to argue against a scientific theory.

[nmh]

"Where did he come from?"

He is the Alpha and the Omega.

[nmh]

"You met him eh ?"

Yes. He is most definitely a guiding force in my life. Through that, I have gotten to know Him. There is no reason why you can't know Him also.

[uncbob]

He is the Alpha and the Omega.

That answer makes as much sense as life coming from inanimate objects that you questioned

[uncbob]

He simply SPOKE it into existence.

Speaking must be pretty tiring for him ( perfect beings get tired ?) since after 6 days he had to take a rest on the 7th

[Quark2005]

Your limited thinking doesn't compare with the genius of God.

Of course not. Most people's limited thinking doesn't even compare with the genius of science.

[dread78645]

He is the Alpha and the Omega.

and the Oregano and Parmesan.

[The Red Zone]

How about studying it on something closer, e.g. monkeys.

[The Red Zone]

My God's people can eat your god up.

[VadeRetro]

Yet again, a science article with a title like "New Insight into [in this case] How Eyes Form in Embryos" comes out and on FR we have a festival of Luddite snotheads cackling that science won't admit it's all magic.

[B-Chan]

Watches are complicated configurations of matter. They don't assemble themselves. They are assembled by a person.

The human body and the universe around us are complicated configurations of matter -- more complicated than any watch. They don't/did not assemble themselves. They are/were assembled by a Person.

1. For every work of art there exists an artist who created it.

2. The universe is a work of art.

3. Therefore, there exists an Artist who created it.

[Erasmus]

The dirty little secret is that evolution is nothing more than evangelical religion.

...at which you evidently sneer.

[The Red Zone]

Well the title doesn't say "Fish Embryos." Thus it comes off sounding like a rather (if I may say so) UNSCIENTIFIC generalization.

[Erasmus]

Please prove assertion #2.

[The Red Zone]

Please prove you aren't less art than a toad.