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Posted on 08/10/2006 9:23:55 AM PDT by calcowgirl
Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa and Police Chief William J. Bratton added their support Wednesday to a bill requiring gun manufacturers to build handguns that would stamp bullet casings with serial numbers — an innovation intended to speed investigations by making it easier to link bullets to the weapons that fired them.
The bill, introduced by Assemblyman Paul Koretz (D-West Hollywood), would only affect the manufacture of new semiautomatic handguns, but Bratton and others said it would aid officers in investigating gun violence.
Speaking to reporters at a City Hall news conference, Villaraigosa added his "support for this strong public safety measure."
Proponents say the etching technology would imprint each gun's serial number on bullet casings when the firing pin of the weapon struck the cartridge. They argue that such microscopic imprinting could not be easily tampered with because other identifying marks would reveal what gun fired the bullet.
By cross-checking bullet casings with existing state databases on gun purchases, authorities say they could quickly figure out what gun had fired the bullets recovered from a crime scene.
Opponents complain that the bill would do little to deter criminals, and even Bratton acknowledged that only a small percentage of Los Angeles gun crime is caused by criminals using properly registered weapons.
(snip)
As introduced, the legislation (AB 352) would affect only new semiautomatic handguns. Asked why it did not cover other handguns, neither Villaraigosa nor Koretz could answer, and Bratton said he had asked the same question.
A staff member interjected that authors had elected to focus on semiautomatics because they eject shells while revolvers do not.
As a result, shootings with semiautomatics more often result in shells left behind for police to investigate.
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
So criminals turn to revolvers as the weapon of choice. Or pick up their spent casings. Or change the firing pin. Meanwhile law abiding citizens bear the brunt of a ridiculous new law.
What dopes.
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This is a workaround to the defeat of various misguided "anti-gun" legislation. Eg; suing mfrs out of business. This is attempting to force gun mfrs into a costly round (NPI) of re-engineering and retooling of existing and in most cases perfectly functional weapons. Gee, criminals are going to seek out the serial number punching guns, aren't they?/s And what are the failure modes for guns that intentionally deform the round when fired? Misfires, anyone? ADs? This piece of stupidity will kill or maim as many or more shooters of said weapons (which will be LEOs or legit target shooters) as it will help catch perps.
Is this the ridiculous idea I heard bandied about some time ago that would cost a gazillion dollars to implement and raise the cost of ammo to about 5 bucks per shell?
Idiots plain and simple. The fact that people in a position of authority have such a low IQ is frightening.
The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute, Inc. states:
"Criminals will easily defeat the technology. As with 'ballistic imaging,' criminals can and will easily defeat the 'micro-stamping' technology by simply filing away or scratching with a steel/wire brush the surface of the firearm where the laser engraving has been placed. Criminals will do this for the same reason they deface the serial number on firearms (which reportedly has significantly increased in recent years) to avoid detection by law enforcement.
Criminals will be able to confuse the police and send them on 'wild goose' chases by simply throwing around at crime scenes expended cartridge casings (having a make model and serial number imprinted on them) from other firearms. Expended shell casings are widely available at shooting ranges all across California.
Criminals will also use reloaded ammunition made from previously expended cartridge cases already having a make, model and serial number imprinted on them. In both cases, there appears to be a real risk that innocent civilians will be arrested by law enforcement on suspicion of having been involved in criminal shootings.
Criminals can avoid the technology by simply using firearms that do not eject shell casings, i.e., revolvers, thus leaving no casing at the crime scene."
Duh,
A quick firing pin change and your good idea just became a joke.
Public safety begins in the voting booth.
Sadly, most voters don't even realize or take that into account when they cast their votes.
To do this it would be necessary to modify the chamber so the shell casing would expand into indentations of the chamber. To foil this would be very simple by filling in the area with metal. However, the vast majority of the weapons used in crime are stolen and it would not be possible to link the bad guy back to the weapon.
This proposal is pure Bravo Sierra.
Boy, the writing at the Latte slime continues to baffle.
Is the proposed AB 352 a municipal or state law? IIRC there are no major semi-auto pistol mfr.'s in Cali,I presume that this is a backdoor attempt to ban handguns.
Looking for that Brady A+ rating.
This bill (AB 352) and another bill (SB 357) were both introduced a year ago.
The latter would tag ammunition.
You can track back using keywords noted in the thread, above.
It's proposed state law. I think it's fair to say that it's an attempt to ban more handguns.
You can read the legislation (or the analyses) from this link:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/postquery?bill_number=ab_352&sess=CUR&house=B&author=koretz
Whoever dreams this stuff up has the mentality of Barbara Boxer.
Talk about a bullet with your name on it...
How's that work?
The up front costs - financial and political - would pretty well sink this idea, but I wonder - purely curiosity you understand - how they would compare to what is already spent by law enforcement trying to track a weapon after the fact.
I also note that this does nothing more than give a point of origin for the weapon, though a correlation of such data with crimes might turn up a few bad apples in the pipeline.
I expect to be seriously yelled at for this post.
This proposal is pure Bravo Sierra.
Ever work in a machine shop? You solution is BS.
People who want to circumvent this strategy would simply buy existing aftermarket bbls.
A few seconds with a wire brush or emery paper will render this "technology" worthless.
And your point is...? I don't think Glocks, Sigs, Kimbers, Colts, Kahrs, Springfields, Berettas, Smiths, Thompsons, Dalys, Scotts, Parkers, Rugers, Stoegers, Walthers, Marlins, Savages, Remingtons, Winchesters, are manufactured in CA. So therefore, these guns do not exist in CA.
this is not about crime, this is about creating laws so complicated as to effectivly ban legal ownership of firearms in any shape or form.
IOW this mayor is afraid of the armed voter.
Besides the cost of this method you outline is the obvious, to any person with knowledge of firearms, fact that shooting a firearm changes it's balistics. So a firearm purchased now, will not have the same balistics a year from now if fired frequently, due to wear on the bore. Also, it is easy to change balistics in a barrel of any firearm with the right abrasives and vey little knowledge. This idea, along with other money and time wasting ideas, is so much BS, being unenforceable.
One other item, serial numbers are regularly erased off of firearms, so even if the balistics stayed the same, which they don't, the missing serial number would preclude any trace of the weapon.
The number one method of "stamping" the casing is to have the s/n imbedded in the head of the firing pin. I have not heard of any other method, and can't think of how else you would be able to print the s/n on the case.
Simply change the firing pin, and you have done away with the stamp.
Also, how hard is it on a semi auto, to change out the barrel completely?
Or keep their older, tried & true piece, instead of getting a new one. OH! I see; the police will REQUIRE criminals to use the newer weapons. Of course!
Do you know what a firing pin is, or what it does?
Why no, I don't have a clue, I'm just guessing.
So Mr. Gunsmith, why don't you "educate" me?
Lets start with the firing order, you know, the transference of energy from the spring forward.
Name the parts for me, because I'm just a dumb Pollack farmer from the backwash of PA and I know absolutely nothing about "guns".
Let's here it, expert.
And your point is...?
As I mentioned it's a backdoor attempt to ban handguns. With no major mfr. falling under state jurisdiction, mfr.'s in other states would simply stop distributing to Cal. Very similar to what happened in MD when they passed the silly 'bullet DNA' law.
That said, all politics are local. If the Cali gun owners of every stripe don't gather as block to vote these bastards out, then democracy (mob rule) wins. Frankly I believe Cali to be past saving, the demographics are just too overwhelming. Good luck to you all.
Trying to imprint a serial number would be very difficult, don't you think?
And no, I'm not a weapons expert, but I do strip my guns for cleaning and used to do a lot of reloading.
Understood. Thanks.
Kalifornia has a bicameral state legislature consisting of a Senate and an Assembly. Bills originating in the Assembly are prefixed with "AB" for "Assembly Bill". Those originating in the Senate are prefixed with "SB".
But on your latter point - the ability to match ballistics would do away with any need for a readable serial number on the firearm. The serial number would already be on file - you would be matching the barrel. Which, as you just pointed out, wouldn't work, as the bore wears.
That's why I come here - to learn new things.
Thanks
Well, we are probably just one severe earthquake from learning many important life lessons. L.A. and San Francisco could, I am sure, rival New Orleans for misbehavior during a crisis.
Since Reginald Denny was dragged from his truck and beaten almost to death during the L.A. riots, I don't think there is a truck driver anywhere in Kalifornia who isn't armed, despite Kalifornia's infringement of the Second Amendment.
Many handgun owners fire hundreds of rounds over one weekend, let alone a year of shooting. I didn't say they changed with only a few rounds, as you are implying. Also, as I say, you can use abrasives to change the bore, abrasives and a lead slug poured to fit your bore will change the bore fast without having to shoot hundreds of rounds, which is easy enough to do anyway.
Also, machine tools can be used to deface the bore and this will change the ballistics.
Without a readable number on the firearm, how are you going to trace the original ballistics, how would you know what ammo to look at? You wouldn't. Matching the ballistics to a recovered firearm that was used in a crime, yes that is possible, but you are talking about having ballistics on record fired from a new gun. Without the serial number you are hopelessly lost. This is without going into the simplicity of changing the ballistics of a barrel, or simply changing barrels.
Don't a few states already do this? And, how many crimes have the databases solved?
I think most Freepers know the answer to the latter questions, and most DUnces wouldn't care what the answer is as long as they feel good about doing it.
Easy. Takes about 30 seconds.
To answer your questions, don't know, and don't know. As I have already been spanked, I will now slink away and hide my shame.
I had assumed - stupid me - that if you had the firearm, you could put a round through it, take the ballistics off the slug, and match with the database - which would have the serial number of the firearm tagged to the benchmark ballistics.
Exposing yet more ignorance here - does the ammo make that much difference to the ballistics?
So criminals turn to revolvers as the weapon of choice. Or pick up their spent casings. Or change the firing pin.
With micro technology, we can, in fact and in deed, print the weapon's FULL s/n, ON THE HEAD OF A PIN.
This is just your typical Kalifornistan Bravo Sierra. Why patriots there haven't done something more... drastic... to some of these folks is a bit beyond me.
"What Would Patrick Henry Do?"
Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!
Anyone who is capable of field stripping a semi-automatic is capable of changing the barrel, the firing pin and the extractor. A Colt 1911 can have all of these changes made in approximately 5 minutes, if you are clumsy.
Fear a Government that fears your guns!
Weps4Ret
Placing a serial number on the end of a firing pin, and expecting it to leave a readable s/n on a primer when the trigger is pulled is a pretty far stretch.
Figure that a firing pin for a rifle/shotgun is about 1/8", so to fit the s/n on there it would be very small to begin with. Highly unlikely that, due to the close spacing of the letters, it would be very readable.
I imagine that the s/n would become 'worn' and the edges of the s/n 'rounded' very easily, leaving an even worse impression. Factor in that there is an explosion taking place within that primer could make things worse.
Most importantly, a serial number on a firing pin could be easily filed off. Furthermore, criminals don't register weapons or acquire them legally anyways so this would make no difference.
I'm a metallurgist, but I've never done forensic work before. There is a chance that the primer could be polished, etched, and something discernable detected using a metallurgical microscope or an SEM.
Likely that something published in popular mechanics, a fun read but hardly a worthy scientific journal, would be the results of something conducted in a lab. I.e. under ideal testing conditions.
Given all the variables I listed that occur when firing a gun, I think that this is a far stretch.
A good question is what is the thickness of the metal in the primer? Also, are they Al or steel??
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