Posted on 07/27/2006 7:01:18 AM PDT by jim_trent
No, this is not a list of engineer jokes. It is the story of my participation in the writing of a new stormwater manual to meet the Phase II Clean Water Act requirements. It is more like the “no good deed goes unpunished” story.
The Clean Water Act was passed in the late 1960’s, originally to stop cities from dumping raw sewage into the nearest stream. It has been tightened several times since then and has made a significant improvement in water quality and safety. About 10 years ago, it was expanded to include stormwater runoff. The deadline for us to meet the requirements is next month.
About 5 years ago, the governmental staff members convinced their local officials that they needed to start planning in order to meet the deadline. I don’t know how many people were asked, but about 30 people experienced in the field became part of a technical committee and another 30 part of the policy committee (there was a slight amount of overlap). The technical committee was primarily engineers. The policy committee was a mix of governmental staff, developers, community “watchdog” organizations, and engineers. By the end, we were down to about 15 people in each. I started in the technical committee and later ended up in both.
We were not paid a penny for this work. My company supported my efforts and allowed me to take time off without penalty and to use company resources on it. I worked an average of 10 hours a week for the last three years on this (only 4 hours a week was on company time – the rest was nights and weekends). I considered this as part of my duty as a Registered Professional Engineer.
We held meetings early on to talk with the public (poorly attended, BTW) and met with the elected officials. We came away with these instructions:
1) Meet the Federal mandate as cheaply as possible (since every dollar used was going to be a tax dollar).
2) Make every dollar do as many things as possible (do water quality, flood control, and increase recreation all at once, if possible).
3) Inconvenience as few people (voters) as possible.
Over the last three years we hammered out a document that will be used around here for years to come. We looked at a lot of options and the tradeoffs inherent in each and I believe we met the marching orders we were given. I am proud of it. It has already been adopted by governmental entities that represent 40% of the population of this State. It will probably be adopted by 2/3 of the population in the next couple of years.
What was interesting to me was to hear the public speak at the public hearings before the adoption votes. We were accused of every kind of underhanded conspiracy, collusion, bribery, and dishonesty that the people could think of. They had NO IDEA that they were the very people who had voted for the people in Washington who mandated these requirements (yes, we told them that it was a Federal requirement -- it did not even slow them down). We did not just make things up out of thin air to make things difficult for them, although I am sure they still don’t believe that. However, it was easier to point at others than shoulder the responsibility for causing this to happen.
No, I did not expect congratulations from the general public, but I was surprised at the depth and breadth of the vehemence. They really did get ugly at times, sometimes with phone threats, e-mail threats, etc. I still believe that I did what was right.
Lots of people still think that local things are demanded / built / driven by local people. They disconnect the feds from what happens, not realizing that the long arm of Washington is pulling strings behind the scenes.
Your post might be more interesting if you mentioned what exactly the opponents were objecting to.
Aerospace engineering - fly around really fast, shoot things, blow stuff up, no public hearings.
> Your post might be more interesting if you mentioned what exactly the opponents were objecting to.
They were objecting to everything. They wanted NO change at all. That was not possible. It is going to cost tax dollars and it will inconvenience people -- but as few as possible. There is no way to meet the mandates without that.
Why we should all pay the local tax collector in cash on April 15th - instead of our cozy and very impersonal federal system.
> Aerospace engineering - fly around really fast, shoot things, blow stuff up, no public hearings.
They also end up unemployed whenever a Demoncrat becomes president. PS, I started out in aerospace engineering in 1967 -- just before the huge layoffs. I went to Civil Engineering. Steadier work.
I'm curious how you can mandate clean water rules for stormwater runoff. By it's nature it's unexpected and the foremost issue regarding that kind of water is how best to remove it quickly so that it doesn't flood streets and homes.
It also raises the question, how will cities like Las Vegas comply when they don't even have a storm drain system at all.
Most 'local people' have to WORK for a living, they don't have time to watch the Fed. Govt. every hour of every day. Local people expect our elected leaders to do that for us, and we watch the elected leader.
When the system fails us, as it seems to do every time 'environmental' legistlation is passed, the Fed. should expect locals to get angry.
You should not be surprised when the 'little people' fight back. THEY own the land, not the Fed. THEY resent 'engineers' and others forcing anti-human rules on them.
Americans are fed up with the tree huggers invading our hard-earned properties and already tough lives. You just got flamed in the cross-fire. Maybe you should find more honest work?
Big Government is just fine until it does something to you. Maybe if we graduated more engineers and fewer lawyers...
Was a lot of that due to the SST bust?
Things have been pretty steady since the early 90s as long as you don't mind moving a lot. Aerospace structures engineers with experience are really in demand.
But I'm getting a computer science/software engineering masters degree just in case.
Which state?
Unfortunately, many of the people who bother to show up for public hearings on issues like these are the real whackjobs, people who believe things like fluoridation of drinking water being a communist plot to control our thoughts and render all males impotent. Far too many rational people who have a real interest in these issues (though they may not know it) just tune them out and don't even think about them.
Until they affect them directly, of course. And by then the rule has been finalized and it's too late to do anything about it.
I wonder what percentage of those complainers could rightly be called "the general public." I wouldn't lump in the activists and community troublemakers under that category.
No, only Congressional ones. Funding for all your toys doesn't grow on trees.
Signed,
The Budget "Engineer"
The win-win was to be: The city gains 2.0 mgd of additional water not being purchased directly by the refinery and the refinery gets a drought proof source of water. No cost was to be passed onto the City's water users.
All people on the committee are volunteers. I was frankly surprised at the level of knowledge of my fellow committee members which included two men who were retired from the water treatment industry (one was a former Plant Manager at a major water treatment facility).
Recently we had our first public meeting. Those in attendance expressed: fear, anger, lack of knowledge and general mistrust.
I know this is just the beginning, but in all honesty, they were expressing legitimate concerns that stemmed from bad experience in the past.
I am going to be patient with them, but I well understand the frustration you have expressed. "
I started in '63 and left in '69. Started my own business and retired 14 years ago. Best decision I ever
made.
The public doesn't trust government.........I wonder why?
10 hrs/wk x 3 yrs = 1500 hrs/person
1500 hrs/person x 15 people = 22500 hrs
22500 hrs x $40/hr (for PE services) = $900,000
A million dollars worth of volunteer time.
Next time charge for your services and see how they complain.
I am considering getting my PE license. Your concept of "duty" is unusual. Why did you feel it was you duty to do this? This was a significant effort on your part and goes way above and beyond duty to the community. This is admirable on one hand, but also sets a bad precident on the other hand.
What the heck did you expect?? The "general public" has been BOHICA'd so many times by their "elected officials" touting the latest "pie-in-the-sky" program that ANYTHING that gets suggested will be suspect.
Just one example. Here in Washington State, we are building a new bridge across the Tacoma Narrows. The locals (those who would be stuck using the TOLL bridge) voted overwhelmingly AGAINST building the bridge AT ALL, but the "power-that-be" artifically expanded the "voting district" so that their votes were diluted. The existing FOUR LANE bridge will be reduced to two lanes and an "HOV lane" (car-poolers only lane), and become a toll bridge. The new bridge (which can accomodate four lanes of traffic) will likewise have two traffic lanes and an "HOV lane"). So the net result of BILLIONS of dollars extracted from the public will be a total of TWO "HOV lanes" added to the transport capacity of the system instead of four full traffic lanes.
"Social engineering" at its best.
And you guys wonder why the public gets pissed????
Most, or even all, of our profession's failures receive a large amount of publicity. After all, a single failure on our part can result in multiple fatalities. The problems arose when politics were brought into the scientific processes such that decisions are often made for political expediency rather than on the laws of mechanics.
In the final analysis, compared with the other professions (doctors, attorneys, etc.), our failure rates are much lower. If we had the same quality problems as they do, we wouldn't be able to stay in business.
Thank you much for your efforts and dedication to the profession in spite of the negative perceptions. BTDT!
The big issue here is what they call 'Combined Sewer Overflow.' Most older cities don't have separate storm and wastewater systems and when there is a storm, the sewage system and treatment plants can quickly become overwhelmed with rain water inflow leaving no choice but to dump raw sewage into a river. The way most areas are handling the new regs is by building very large holding tanks along the sewage interceptor lines. These tanks can hold several million gallons. After the rain, they can gradually be drained down and the water treated.
The 'public' problem is "Who wants a million gallons of raw sewage sitting in a big ugly tank in their neighborhood?" But they are the cost effective solution and they have to be build somewhere.
I'll jump in here. It's called water treatment. That's what the rules are requiring.
Here's an example:
After the surface mine act of 1977 was created to bring underground coal mining operations under the same environmental protection as surface (strip) mines, a mine operator often had to treat water leaving his operation, even if the water exiting his operation was of quality high enough to be drinkable - not because his operation made the runoff bad, but because the water flowing into his operation may have been bad. So even though he treated his own runoff, if he discharged it into existing runoff from an adjacent property that flowed onto his property, he had to treat the bad water to bring it up to standard. That's some of the expenses we're all paying for.
Have there been any studies to determine whether storm water management is actually making any kind of dent in the humongous natural occurrence of rainwater runoff?
You have jumped to the wrong conclusion. The key sentences are at the end, specifically:
I know this is just the beginning, but in all honesty, they were expressing legitimate concerns that stemmed from bad experience in the past. I am going to be patient with them, but I well understand the frustration you have expressed. "
I was describing the event and not expressing any anger at the people. Frustration, yes, but not anger. My post was intended to be sympathetic to the the general public.
To be honest, after we explained the project to them, answered their questions and addressed their concerns, most of them seem satisfied. The only one who was not convinced was one person, who lives directly across from the WWTP. She has a 180 degree view, about 60 degrees of which includes water, the balance the plant. Part of the project would include a 20 ft. high building, which may impact her view, slightly.
BANANA
From one P.E. to another
BTTT
Until, of course, the politicians change the rules in mid-project---screwing both you AND the public. The public KNOWS this is the way the real world works.
We used to have an outfit that made printed circuit boards here in Dayton. They drew water from the City mains, used it in their operation, then had to clean it up before it went into the sewer. Under the law, the "waste" water they dumped had to be cleaner than the drinking water they started with.
To add to the frustration list, I am an engineer who worked on the design phase of the Seadock tanker port southwest of Houston. The project's environmental impact study took years to complete, cost millions of dollars and was over five feet thick (it even came with its own specially constructed dolly). The only tangible suggestion was that the slopes of the tank dikes needed to be reduced because they were so steep that snakes might accidentally roll off while sunning themselves. The oil companies were forced to buy additional land for millions more dollars in order to spread out the tanks a bit. Something to think about the next time you fill up.
I am also a P.E. since 1973, and I have the gray hairs to prove it. The stormwater regulations in many cases are meant to slow the discharge of stormwater off a given property.
For example: in many apartment compexes or campus office complexes, detention ponds are used to temporarily store stormwater to reduce the peak discharge. These detention facilities are now being featured. Another benefit of the detention basin to settle some of the larger particles out to reduce turbidity downstream.
If wishes were horses, a lot of people would be surprised how much $#!^ needs shovelling.
I am also a P.E. since 1973, and I have the gray hairs to prove it. The stormwater regulations in many cases are meant to slow the discharge of stormwater off a given property.
For example: in many apartment compexes or campus office complexes, detention ponds are used to temporarily store stormwater to reduce the peak discharge. These detention facilities are now being featured. Another benefit of the detention basin to settle some of the larger particles out to reduce turbidity downstream.
PE is totally reliable and competent. I have worked with many, and went to school with many who would become PEs. They do their job the same way they did their homework in engineering school. No nonsense, do it, do it right first time.
Find more honest work? He's volunteering his time to help keep the town in compliance with rules many of the residents probably (indirectly) voted for. He certainly doesn't deserve the complaints.
I'm on the "Storm Water Committee" here in Sidney. I'm an electrical engineer, but have some pretty broad expereince in all kinds of engineering. Anyway, we do have separate storm and sanitary sewer systems. One big problem is that older houses had their gutter downspouts going into the sanitary sewer system instead of the stormwater system. During a rainstorm, that unnecessiraly added to the flow in the sanitary sewer, which had to go through the treatment plant. The city has been working to correct that. In addition, we had a problem of "infiltration" of rainwater into the sanitary sewer system through leakage at the manholes.
The city building code requires any new buildings to compensate for roofs, driveways, parking lots, etc., through use of retention basins to keep the total runoff no greater than it would be from a grass-covered lawn. That is, runoff from non-absorptive surfaces must be directed into a retention basin, from which the outflow is limited to no more than the runoff from a lawn would be. So far as I know, it doesn't apply to residences, but it does apply to shopping malls and things like hospitals and other things with big parking lots. This does seem to help keep the river from rising so rapidly in a heavy storm.
Engineers' Permanent employment Act
Ah, a veteran of the world of government contracts. I was there, too. That was when I learned we don't live in Shangri-la after all.
One way to reduce storm water run off is with "green" roofs-vegetated roofing systems. Green roofs in the US are typically designed to reduce run off anywhere from 50-65%. (In Germany some of the green roofs hit 90-95% reduction).
Obviously this doesnt address the issue of storm water runoff from city streets, but it does go a long way in taking some pressure off of water treatment facilities.
LOL.
But at the same time, the absudity of these rules is lost on these whackos.
Another case in absurdity:
A mine near Carlin, Nevada, pumps potable ground water as part of their dewatering program (prevents pit from flooding). This water needs to be treated before being put back into the local above ground stream. Reasons are: Temperature control and second was xylenium content ( I believe). Mind you this water was fit for human consumption, but not OK for the fish.
Cost of water treatment plant was ~$16,000,000
Then I think about it and realize that most of the people don't care about their public schools. And the few that would care, have their kids in alternate schooling (private, homeschools, etc) or, have kids that are intelligent and well-grounded enough to be fine no matter what school they attend.
Your article just confirms my thoughts. As an engineer myself, I appreciate your hard work. Unfortunate that your constituents don't.
As per my favorites, I am kind of torn between a proposed OSHA standard for dildo's and a proposed meteorite shield over high pressure oil separation vessels offshore Norway. On one hand, we must not ruff the muff. On the other hand, we must try to deflect a 20,000 mph bullet with a one in ten trillion-trillion (or so) chance of striking the goods.
And in my career, I have come across so many other pathetic examples of government stupidity. Sigh ....
Read Jose Ortega y Gassett's classic essay The Revolt of the Masses for an outstanding treatise on why modern, complex societies must inevitably become totalitarian in nature over time.
Alberta's Child, P.E.
Everybody loves to hate the Federal government and the engineers that work for it, but I can almost guarantee you that the most vocal opponents of these institutions are the first ones to demand an aerial Coast Guard rescue, first-class temporary accommodations, and full compensation from FEMA for all of their lost assets and inconvenience when their house ends up under eight feet of water in the aftermath of a major storm.
> Maybe you should find more honest work?
And maybe you and the rest of the people here should elect more conservatives to Congress.
> I'm curious how you can mandate clean water rules for stormwater runoff.
This is something you have to ask your Congressman. It is here and it is not going away unless they are thrown out and conservatives elected.
> Was a lot of that due to the SST bust?
Not really. There was also the winding down of the Vietnam War. Took several more years on the ground, but the planning and spending was cut years earlier.
You are exactly right. In fact, I believe I saw between 5 and 10 times MORE people at the final hearings compared to who showed up at the initial public hearings -- and most of the early people had an axe to grind like you said.
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