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California bill seeks to require guns to tag ammunition
sanluisobispo.com ^ | Apr. 28, 2006 | REBECCA ROSEN LUM

Posted on 04/28/2006 8:53:03 AM PDT by neverdem

Knight Ridder Newspapers

WALNUT CREEK, Calif. - California could become the first state in the nation to require semi-automatic handguns include microscopic equipment for pressing an identifying mark into every bullet fired.

Through newly developed technology, the firing pin of a semi-automatic weapon can stamp the gun's make and model onto a bullet shell as it leaves the chamber. The technology could help police investigate homicides and trace gun trafficking.

Thirty-three California police chiefs support a bill, sponsored by Assemblyman Paul Koretz, a West Hollywood Democrat, that would require the markers.

"It has the potential to solve some significant crimes in some pretty large numbers," Koretz said in a telephone interview.

Officers could quickly match the casing numbers to weapons on a state gun sales database maintained by the California Department of Justice.

It's the second go-round for the bill, which passed the Assembly easily last year but was defeated in the Senate. This year, the votes are there, Koretz said.

Nearly 1,800 Californians lost their lives to gun violence in 2004, according to the state Department of Justice. But police make arrests in only 55 percent of homicides due to the lack of sufficient evidence.

Sam Paredes, director of the 30,000-member California Gun Owners Association, said proponents of the bill are engaging in "a lot of wishful thinking" if they believe mandating the technology will turn that around.

"All it takes is a few swipes (on the pin) with a sandpaper or nail file, and (the marker) is gone," he said.

He called the technology "laughable," saying trigger-happy criminals could outwit police investigators by picking up spent shells at a shooting range and sprinkling them at a crime scene.

That drew a big laugh from Todd Lizotte, who developed the technology for use in laser printers while he was vice president of NanoVia, a semiconductor and microelectronic equipment manufacturer bought by Hitachi in 2003.

There's nothing stopping perpetrators of gun violence from doing that now, he said.

"The truth is, nobody ever does that," he said. "When people talk about these issues, they tend to raise the common criminal up to the level of criminal mastermind and the police down to the level of (cartoon character) Wile E. Coyote."

The pin is nearly as hard as a diamond, he said. In addition, the markers on the pin are invisible to the naked eye.

The technology expands on the incidental markings that already appear on cartridge casings, Lizotte said. "Instead of relying on randomly created marks, we're placing an identifier specific to that firearm."

Hitachi acquired NanoVia, but not its ballistic imaging component. That went to ID Dynamics, a holding company founded by Lizotte and his partners.

An Assembly revote is being held up while Koretz and Assemblyman Jay La Suer, a San Diego Republican and the bill's chief critic, agree on a date for a demonstration.

"I told him if they're able to file (the pin) down, I'll halt the bill," Koretz said. "My understanding of the technology is that it's pretty foolproof."

The bill has the support of state Attorney General Bill Lockyer and police chiefs from Los Angeles. Also supporting the bill are police chiefs from four cities in Alameda County and six cities in Contra Costa County. The Alameda County Sheriff also supports the bill.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger does not comment on pending bills, a spokeswoman said.

Parendes of the Gun Owners Association said the bill "doesn't stand the chance of a snowball in the deep, dark center of the earth."

Meanwhile, a growing number of cities and counties are voting on resolutions supporting the bill. One in Contra Costa County, sponsored by Supervisors John Gioia of Richmond and Mark DeSaulnier of Concord, squeaked by in a 3-2 vote April 11.

Supervisor Gayle Uilkema of Lafayette said the bill amounts to an unfunded state mandate with counties left to pick up the costs. But the bill's supporters say there are no costs to local government.

Outfitting new guns will cost the manufacturers 25 cents to 50 cents per firearm, Lizotte said. More than 70 percent of new handguns sold in California are semi-automatic.

"I question people who opposed something so straightforward," said Griffin Dix, California state council president of the Million Mom March. "You can put an identifying number on every container of yogurt you sell, but not on a gun?"


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: California; US: Maryland; US: New York
KEYWORDS: ab352; ammunition; banglist; bradywatch; callegislation; callegislature; hitachi; iddynamics; koretz; lizotte; nanovia; sb357
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Only Maryland and New York passed "ballistic fingerprinting" laws, which have not solved any crimes. The last that I read, Maryland wanted to stop funding it. Maryland House weighs ballistics database
1 posted on 04/28/2006 8:53:06 AM PDT by neverdem
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To: neverdem

The left will not give up.
Join the NRA.


2 posted on 04/28/2006 8:54:59 AM PDT by BooksForTheRight.com (what have you done today to fight terrorism/leftism (same thing!))
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To: neverdem
"All it takes is a few swipes (on the pin) with a sandpaper or nail file, and (the marker) is gone," he said.

Who cares? This law, useless as it may be, will make us FEEEEEEEEL better! And it will let tax-and-spend leftists appear "tough on crime" to appear to moderates! Waah!

3 posted on 04/28/2006 8:55:57 AM PDT by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: neverdem
How 'bout a bill requiring tags on illegal aliens?
4 posted on 04/28/2006 8:56:55 AM PDT by Steely Tom
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To: neverdem

Just more stupid harrassment from the left. They are incrementally trying to disarm the public. Tagging of ammo is the dumbest idea these communist morons have come up with yet.


5 posted on 04/28/2006 8:57:07 AM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: Steely Tom

How 'bout a bill requiring tags on illegal aliens?
-----
But remember, guns don't vote for liberal socialists, illegal aliens do.


6 posted on 04/28/2006 8:58:21 AM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: neverdem
"All it takes is a few swipes (on the pin) with a sandpaper or nail file, and (the marker) is gone," he said.

Plus, firing pins can be (and often are) replaced.

7 posted on 04/28/2006 8:58:52 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: neverdem

Looks like the leftist gun grabbers have realized that they will never be able to outlaw guns entirely. What better way, then, to make sure us common folk remain unarmed than to require procedures that make buying ammunition too expensive.

This is NOT for solving crimes. It is ONLY to raise prices to make self defense less affordable for civilians.


8 posted on 04/28/2006 8:59:04 AM PDT by frankiep
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To: neverdem

Ten minutes to disassemble, five minutes to polish the firing pin with fine sandpaper, ten minutes to reassemble...

Less than a half hour to overcome, this will work great...


9 posted on 04/28/2006 8:59:08 AM PDT by El Laton Caliente (NRA Member & GUNSNET.NET Moderator)
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To: neverdem
Talk 'bout talkin' outta yer a$$

It has the potential to solve some significant crimes in some pretty large numbers, Koretz said

This guy's a time traveler who's returned to save us w/ a simple bit of legislation.

10 posted on 04/28/2006 9:00:24 AM PDT by TheOracleAtLilac
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To: neverdem

I have conceived a method where the barrel rifling has grooves representing numeric digits of the weapon's serial numbers and as a projectile passes through it, it imprints the groove data on the bullet via varying widths and depths of the rifle grooves. With a 0-9 configuration, the serial number of the weapon could, in effect, be imprinted around the girth of the bullet fired through the barrel.

But, I can't seem to get anyone interested in the concept.


11 posted on 04/28/2006 9:01:51 AM PDT by azhenfud (He who always is looking up seldom finds others' lost change.)
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To: neverdem

This will only work with NEW guns, not existing ones.


12 posted on 04/28/2006 9:02:06 AM PDT by DBrow
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To: neverdem

And in other news, California now mandates that all armed robbers wear a name tag and present id at the door.


13 posted on 04/28/2006 9:02:53 AM PDT by flying Elvis
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To: Mr. Mojo
Plus, firing pins can be (and often are) replaced.

Coming attractions - death penalty for anyone in possession of a "spare" firing pin.

14 posted on 04/28/2006 9:03:06 AM PDT by TheOracleAtLilac
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To: neverdem
Liberalism is a disorder of processing information and subsequent decision making. This idea is as specious and ineffective.

Google "glock firing pins": 29,000 hits. "colt firing pins": 69,100 hits. "sandpaper" 1.7 million hits.
15 posted on 04/28/2006 9:03:10 AM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: frankiep

This is NOT for solving crimes. It is ONLY to raise prices to make self defense less affordable for civilians.
-----
True. It is pure harassment of the legal, law-abiding citizen. Why don't these moron liberals go after criminals, instead of law-abiders?? Because they don't see criminals as a threat to their miserable butts -- they pander to criminals. Just look at death row in California -- it looks like the Hilton.


16 posted on 04/28/2006 9:03:25 AM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: EagleUSA

"Tagging of ammo is the dumbest idea these communist morons have come up with yet."

Even dumber than banning flash suppressors and elongated pistol grips then claiming it'll stop assault weapon crime?



17 posted on 04/28/2006 9:04:02 AM PDT by Firefigher NC (You light ‘em, we fight ‘em!)
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To: neverdem
I told him if they're able to file (the pin) down, I'll halt the bill," Koretz said. "My understanding of the technology is that it's pretty foolproof.

Take it to the local machine shop and have them cut it with a PCD tool.
18 posted on 04/28/2006 9:04:05 AM PDT by JamesP81
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To: neverdem

This is why you never, never, ever, ever vote for a democrat, not even a pro 2A democrat, because every democrat adds to the majority of the body they sit in. When the dems are the majority, we get more gun control.

Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.


19 posted on 04/28/2006 9:04:25 AM PDT by umgud (the profound is only so to those that it is)
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To: neverdem
That drew a big laugh from Todd Lizotte, who developed the technology for use in laser printers while he was vice president of NanoVia, a semiconductor and microelectronic equipment manufacturer bought by Hitachi in 2003.

There's nothing stopping perpetrators of gun violence from doing that now, he said.

That's because there's no motivation for them to seed the crime scene with bogus shells because it's difficult to trace a spent round to a single gun unless (a) that gun was used in a previous crime and its "fingerprints" are on file, or (b) the gun has been recovered and can be tested against evidence.

I'd venture to say that Lizotte is pushing this bill for the benefit of Lizotte, not the public.

20 posted on 04/28/2006 9:06:03 AM PDT by randog (What the...?!)
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To: neverdem

Seems to me that the free market could implement this technology pretty well. A lot of responsible gun owners might actually CHOOSE to pay a little extra for a handgun with this feature. Instead of heavy-handed government legislation, they ought to encourage voluntary participation by manufacturers. Am I offbase here?


21 posted on 04/28/2006 9:06:59 AM PDT by Lekker 1 ("Computers in the future may have only 1000 vacuum tubes..." - Popular Mechanics, March 1949)
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To: DBrow
This will only work with NEW guns, not existing ones.

"California could become the first state in the nation to require semi-automatic handguns include microscopic equipment for pressing an identifying mark into every bullet fired."

Does CA have an effective ban on wheel guns? /sarc

22 posted on 04/28/2006 9:07:18 AM PDT by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: Mr. Mojo
"All it takes is a few swipes (on the pin) with a sandpaper or nail file, and (the marker) is gone," he said. Plus, firing pins can be (and often are) replaced.

A built in benefit of the law is that it will give Law enforcement gestapo an excuse to confiscate every firearm they come across for examination of tampering. Of course the penalty for tampering will be extreme and once any one confiscates your firearm for 'examination for compliance', good luck getting it back. This, as all grabber moves, has nothing at all to do with safety or crime. It's all about disarming every citizen. A neutered public is easier to control and tax.

23 posted on 04/28/2006 9:07:44 AM PDT by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget)
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To: neverdem
More comments and opinions here.
24 posted on 04/28/2006 9:07:51 AM PDT by upchuck (Wikipedia.com - the most unbelievable web site in the world.)
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To: Lekker 1
Am I offbase here?

Yes. It is not the concern of the federal or state government whether or not I own firearms. Period.
25 posted on 04/28/2006 9:08:04 AM PDT by JamesP81
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To: neverdem
Firing pin is "NEARLY" as hard as a diamond hey? Hold muy beer babe, and let me see your "DIAMOND" fingernail file.

Wife picked up several of the diamond fingernail files at flea market for buck apiece.
26 posted on 04/28/2006 9:09:28 AM PDT by Ursus arctos horribilis
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To: JamesP81; Lekker 1

And furthermore, not only would I not pay a little extra for the feature in a handgun, I would refuse to buy a handgun, at any discount, that had the feature in it.


27 posted on 04/28/2006 9:09:39 AM PDT by JamesP81
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To: neverdem
"I question people who opposed something so straightforward," said Griffin Dix, California state council president of the Million Mom March. "You can put an identifying number on every container of yogurt you sell, but not on a gun?"

Umm, guns already have serial numbers.

28 posted on 04/28/2006 9:09:44 AM PDT by 1066AD
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To: EagleUSA
Tagging of ammo is the dumbest idea these communist morons have come up with yet.

It's only a dumb idea if:
A. you are coompletely ignorant of firearms and how they operate,
B. you believe everything you see on CSI, and
C. the only tools you know how to use are located on your computer's desktop.

Otherwise it's brilliant!

29 posted on 04/28/2006 9:10:44 AM PDT by PsyOp (The commonwealth is theirs who hold the arms.... - Aristotle.)
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To: BooksForTheRight.com

The reporterette is as ignorant as is her legislators. The National Reasonable-regulation Asses loving-gun control from the right is as evil as is Sarah Brady's hateful gun control. See http://www.nrawol.com for links to keepandbeararms.com archive of NRA gun control abuses. The gallus-snappers would dispense our Right as mere membership privilege.


30 posted on 04/28/2006 9:10:51 AM PDT by dhuffman@awod.com (The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.)
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To: umgud
This is why you never, never, ever, ever vote for a democrat, not even a pro 2A democrat, because every democrat adds to the majority of the body they sit in.

You figured out how I picked my name. How did you do it?

31 posted on 04/28/2006 9:11:15 AM PDT by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: Ursus arctos horribilis

Even small town, rural machine shops have machine tools based on PCD (poly-crystalline diamond). Sounds all sophisticated but it's actually fairly old and common technology. In any case, you could cut on a firing pin with that without any problems. Then again, if you want, you could go down to the same machine shop with a set of prints and have them make you a firing pin.


32 posted on 04/28/2006 9:11:35 AM PDT by JamesP81
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To: BooksForTheRight.com
The Second Amendment - Commentaries
33 posted on 04/28/2006 9:11:55 AM PDT by PsyOp (The commonwealth is theirs who hold the arms.... - Aristotle.)
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To: JamesP81

I might help you recover your weapon if it were stolen, kinda like an invisible ID marker.


34 posted on 04/28/2006 9:13:05 AM PDT by Lekker 1 ("Computers in the future may have only 1000 vacuum tubes..." - Popular Mechanics, March 1949)
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To: neverdem

Through newly developed technology, the firing pin of a semi-automatic weapon can stamp the gun's make and model onto a bullet shell as it leaves the chamber.

Hollywood begins to believe its movies ( Judge Dredd) actually are real.


More than 70 percent of new handguns sold in California are semi-automatic.
And the rest are automatic?




"You can put an identifying number on every container of yogurt you sell, but not on a gun?"

Its called a serial number. Duh!


35 posted on 04/28/2006 9:14:37 AM PDT by Redcitizen (When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk. -Tuco)
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To: upchuck

Thanks for the link.


36 posted on 04/28/2006 9:14:51 AM PDT by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: Lekker 1
I might help you recover your weapon if it were stolen, kinda like an invisible ID marker.

This falls prey to the same problem that the government has when dealing with it; all the crook has to do is change the firing pin. Furthermore, with such a system in place, the temptation is too great for Big Brother to resist.

It's not worth it at all. I'll buy a gun safe to keep my guns from getting stolen.
37 posted on 04/28/2006 9:16:24 AM PDT by JamesP81
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To: Lekker 1
Am I offbase here?

Yes, you are. The lame brain idea has nothing at all to do with responsibility

38 posted on 04/28/2006 9:18:52 AM PDT by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget)
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To: JamesP81
Yes. It is not the concern of the federal or state government whether or not I own firearms. Period.

You must not have read my post. I made the argument that the government should stay out of this. Open your mind a little.

39 posted on 04/28/2006 9:20:23 AM PDT by Lekker 1 ("Computers in the future may have only 1000 vacuum tubes..." - Popular Mechanics, March 1949)
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To: neverdem

If you use a revolver you don't necessarily dump shells all over, so requiring marks on the firing pin would be futile.

Using a revolver and leaving some marked .40 shells from the police firing range would make investigations interesting, even though the cops seem to think that street punks are too dumb to do that.

If they are so stupid, then why are so many murders left unsolved in CA, WDC, NYC, Boston, and Chicago?


40 posted on 04/28/2006 9:20:35 AM PDT by DBrow
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To: PsyOp

Otherwise it's brilliant!
-------
I have been a gun-user and gunsmith for over thirty years -- YOU are the ignorant one. Go kiss Diane Feinstein.


41 posted on 04/28/2006 9:20:36 AM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: Lekker 1

And any gun owner with a tagged handgun gets a break on insurance, and a carry license.

I like your freemarket idea!


42 posted on 04/28/2006 9:23:01 AM PDT by DBrow
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To: EagleUSA

I believe you misconstrued my point. I was using something called sarcasm. Of course I think the whole thing is stupid. Why don't you take a look at the link I posted on this thread.

Next time don't go off half-cocked.


43 posted on 04/28/2006 9:23:33 AM PDT by PsyOp (The commonwealth is theirs who hold the arms.... - Aristotle.)
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To: paul51

I am offbase by saying the government should stay out of this and that some people might actually CHOOSE to have this feature on their guns in order to help them recover their weapon if it is stolen? You must be a communist.


44 posted on 04/28/2006 9:23:52 AM PDT by Lekker 1 ("Computers in the future may have only 1000 vacuum tubes..." - Popular Mechanics, March 1949)
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To: neverdem

Why stop here. Why not have a law that says every criminal must leave a photo id at the scene of every crime?

Better yet, make a law that says every crminal must leave a map to their hidding place.

Wait a minute, how about a law that says every criminal must report the crime in person to the local police station.

Now these measures would really put a stop to crime.


45 posted on 04/28/2006 9:23:59 AM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: DBrow

Now you're talkin'.


46 posted on 04/28/2006 9:25:32 AM PDT by Lekker 1 ("Computers in the future may have only 1000 vacuum tubes..." - Popular Mechanics, March 1949)
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To: PsyOp

Next time don't go off half-cocked.
-----
My apologies. Your post did not read that way -- :-)


47 posted on 04/28/2006 9:26:09 AM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: neverdem
This isn't about making the prosecution of crimes easier. This is about making legal gun ownership harder, impossible if they can manage it.

I call it "treason".

48 posted on 04/28/2006 9:28:27 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time.)
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To: Lekker 1
You must be a communist

The government is going to set up a data base just so some 'responsible' firearms owners may wish to participate in this veiled grabber scheme? You must be a moron

49 posted on 04/28/2006 9:30:34 AM PDT by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget)
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To: JamesP81
It's not worth it at all. I'll buy a gun safe to keep my guns from getting stolen.

I'll bet you have lots of things that you personally believe were "worth it" that someone else personally believes would be "not worth it at all". The point is, I can choose if I want the gun that is marked and you can choose to buy one that is unmarked and then secretly mark it yourself (you do have your name on it somewhere don't you...or at least have left the serial number intact on it?) My argument was to let the free market decide.

50 posted on 04/28/2006 9:32:07 AM PDT by Lekker 1 ("Computers in the future may have only 1000 vacuum tubes..." - Popular Mechanics, March 1949)
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