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Amnesty, Again (January 26, 2004) (This country should have learned -- apparently, it has not)
CIS ^ | January 26, 2004 | Mark Krikorian

Posted on 04/24/2006 12:47:17 PM PDT by Dr. Marten

President Bush has kicked off his reelection year by proposing an amnesty for illegal aliens dressed up as a guestworker program, plus the importation of millions of new guestworkers and a significant increase in immigration. What is the White House thinking?

The administration first floated the idea of a guest-worker amnesty in 2001, during President Bush’s honeymoon meeting with Mexico’s President Vicente Fox, but discussions came to a halt because of 9/11 (as well as ferocious opposition from House Republicans). Over the subsequent two years, the administration issued occasional statements expressing the continued desire to reach an immigration deal with Mexico—but the complete lack of substance in these pronouncements, combined with Secretary of State Colin Powell’s careful efforts to keep expectations low, suggested it was little more than talk, intended to appease the beleaguered Fox administration and curry favor with hostile Hispanic racial-identity groups in this country.

But there is more to the current amnesty talk than the sweet nothings of diplomacy. The president has unveiled the outlines of his proposal in anticipation of his planned meeting with Fox during the January 12-13 “Summit of the Americas” in Monterrey, Mexico. It is described as a guest-worker program, but the “guest” concept is deceptive; in fact, the program would provide for the permanent importation of thousands new workers from overseas and amnesty for illegal aliens already here.

As to the first of these goals, the president has frequently said he wants an “immigration policy that helps match any willing employer with any willing employee.” Taking him at his word would suggest a return to 19th-century unlimited immigration, with the American labor market open to the world’s other 6 billion people. And, in fact, this seems to be the objective, because under the proposal, employers would decide which workers come into the United States, though it would maintain the fiction that Americans would have to be offered the jobs first.

Providing U.S. employers of low-skilled labor access to the entire workforce of the Third World would inevitably drive down wages and benefits for Americans, creating ever more “jobs Americans won’t do.” The White House seems to view immigration as similar to trade, seeking a market-driven system that allows free movement of people. But immigration and trade are fundamentally different issues. As Henry Simons, a pioneering University of Chicago free market advocate wrote in 1948: “To insist that a free-trade program is logically or practically incomplete without free migration is either disingenuous or stupid. Free trade may and should raise living standards everywhere . . . Free immigration would level standards, perhaps without raising them anywhere.”

Although this importation of new foreign workers would be the more far-reaching component of the White House plan in the long run, the amnesty portion is the more controversial and relevant politically.

NONE DARE CALL IT AMNESTY
Not that amnesty supporters ever use the “A” word. A couple of years ago, the National Council of La Raza commissioned focus groups to prepare for the fight over amnesty and concluded that they should never utter the word. As a result, amnesty proponents have concocted a series of ridiculous euphemisms, which have been embraced by the White House and others: “normalization,” “legalization,” “registration,” “permanence,” “earned adjustment, “adjusted work status,” and—my favorite—“phased-in access to earned regularization.”

The only time supporters use the word “amnesty” is when denying that their proposals constitute an amnesty at all, as in the president’s repeated statements that he opposes a “blanket amnesty.” Unfortunately, coming out against a “blanket amnesty” is meaningless. What country would grant legal status to every illegal alien, without so much as a cursory background check? The huge amnesty passed by Congress in 1986 (billed as the first and last in American history) was clearly not a “blanket” amnesty, since there were residency and other requirements applicants had to meet, and 10 percent of the 3 million applicants were rejected.

It is true that the Bush Amnesty would work differently from the 1986 version. First, illegal aliens would be relabeled “guestworkers” under a renewable three-year status, thus allowing them to remain here legally, get driver’s licenses, travel freely, etc. Then, they could apply for green cards under the normal legal-immigration system, free from the fear of deportation. However, rather than allow the backlogs to grow astronomically, as would happen otherwise, the president’s plan would significantly increase legal immigration quotas so as to accommodate the new applicants. In other words, this is a kind of two-step amnesty, where the former illegal aliens can remain indefinitely in a contingent status, awaiting the day that their number comes up for a green card. But the mechanics are irrelevant to the central fact: Illegal aliens would be rewarded with legal status, and that’s amnesty. To suggest otherwise is an insult to our intelligence.

So what? What’s wrong with legalizing millions of hardworking illegal aliens? Let me count the ways.

What part of “illegal” don’t you understand? Amnesty undermines the rule of law. In the first encounter these people had with our country, they broke our law. It would be one thing to use the model of a tax amnesty and give illegals 60 days to leave the country, no questions asked, after which the hammer of enforcement would come down. But the Bush Amnesty would instead reward illegals with the most coveted asset on the planet—permanent residence in the United States.

“Sucker! The most immediate victims of amnesty are the millions of people overseas on waiting lists seeking to immigrate legally. Even if the illegals have to go to the back of the line, the fact remains that we have rewarded their lawbreaking, and we thus mock those who did not sneak into our country and sought to obey our law.

Overload. Immigration authorities simply do not have the administrative capacity to manage an amnesty—however it is organized—properly. There is now a backlog of more than 5.5 million applications for immigration benefits, up 26 percent from the year before, and the Department of Homeland Security is developing and implementing huge new systems to track foreign students and visitors. Do immigration workers in the midst of all this have so much time on their hands that they can take on the additional task of ensuring that millions of illegal aliens comply with the terms of their “phased-in access to earned regularization”—not to mention doing their background checks?

Enemies, foreign and domestic. Of course, the corollary of administrative overload is massive fraud, as overworked bureaucrats start hurrying people through the system, usually with political encouragement. We saw this in the 1986 amnesty, when applicants who claimed to have picked watermelons from trees were legalized as farm workers, because the INS was prohibited from devoting too much attention to suspicious applications, lest the process bog down. This can become a national-security problem, when ineligible people get legal status—people like, say, Mahmud Abouhalima, a cabbie in New York, who got amnesty as a farm worker under the 1986 law and went on to help lead the first World Trade Center attack. Having an illegal-alien terrorist in your country is bad; having one with legal status is worse, since he can work and travel freely, as Abouhalima did, going to Afghanistan to receive terrorist training only after he got amnesty. And don’t fall for the claim that illegal aliens who have sneaked across the Mexican border yearn only to wash our dishes; an Iraqi-born smuggler pled guilty in 2001 to sneaking 1,000 Middle Easterners through Mexico into the U.S., and the former Mexican consul in Beirut was recently arrested for her involvement in a similar enterprise. Another amnesty is guaranteed—guaranteed—to give legal residence to a future terrorist.

“It’s a paycheck! The morale of government workers responsible for enforcing the immigration law is grievously undermined when their political superiors continually talk about amnesty for the very people who lied, cheated, and generally flouted the law. In this environment, it’s easy to understand how, for instance, an airport immigration inspector in Miami could have allowed Mohamed Atta to re-enter the country in January 2001 even though he had overstayed his visa the last time; after all, why bother focusing on him when millions like him go unpenalized and when political leaders make crystal clear that they don’t take our immigration laws seriously? Immigration workers approach me all the time with their frustration at not being allowed to do their jobs, and amnesty would ensure that they remain trapped in this Dilbert universe, with Congress and the president filling in for the pointy-haired boss.

Priming the pump. Amnesties don’t solve the problem of illegal immigration—they exacerbate it. An INS report released about three years ago showed that after the 1986 amnesty, illegal immigration increased markedly as family and friends of the newly legalized aliens sneaked into the country. And the new illegals weren’t just Mexicans, emboldened to hop across the border; illegal immigration from other countries surged even more dramatically, suggesting that amnesty’s role in encouraging further illegal immigration is a general phenomenon.

We the People? Amnesty will create millions of new U.S.-Mexican dual citizens, who, as early as 2006, may be able to vote in both countries’ elections. This would represent the fulfillment of Mexico’s efforts to extend its authority over a large part of the American population—the most serious threat to our sovereignty since the Civil War. The Mexican consulates in the U.S. already represent the largest such network in any country, and the consuls are increasingly taking part in domestic politics and governance. Amnesty would hugely accelerate this trend.

Sticker shock. Illegal aliens can’t receive welfare; legal immigrants can. The fear of a fiscal earthquake is why Congress in 1986 barred amnesty recipients from some welfare programs for five years and reimbursed states a small portion of their aid costs for the former illegals. But no amount of fancy footwork could avoid the fact that permanently settling millions of unskilled laborers into a modern economy costs the public treasury billions. A study ten years after the last amnesty estimated that the newly legalized aliens had already generated a net fiscal deficit of $24 billion. Is this really the time to saddle states and localities—which would bear most of the costs—with an additional unfunded mandate?

BAIT AND SWITCH
Okay, but even if you stipulate to all these problems, there’s nothing else we can do, right? We can’t round up 9 to 10 million illegals, so why not suck it up and weather the fallout of amnesty, but resolve to mend our ways and put in place measures to ensure we don’t get more illegals in the future? This appears to be the marketing strategy the White House has in mind, with talk of increased use of technology at the border and tougher enforcement against employers who abuse the system.

It would be impolite to ask why these measures aren’t being taken already, given that the enemy is even now plotting to penetrate our defenses and kill us. Let me point out only that this bargain—amnesty in exchange for stricter future control—was the basis of the 1986 law. And as anyone with a modicum of common sense could have predicted at the time, the deal was a trick. The law was indeed tightened, prohibiting the employment of illegal aliens on the valid assumption that removing the magnet of jobs is necessary to stem illegal immigration. But enforcement was sporadic at best, and has now virtually ceased. The consequences were hard to miss: 2.7 million illegal aliens were legalized, but because there was little commitment to law enforcement, every one of them was replaced by a new illegal alien within ten years of the law’s implementation.

To go back to the original question: What are they thinking? The administration is populated by smart, public-spirited men and women; how have they come to support such nonsense? The proximate reason is politics, with the quest for a larger share of the Hispanic vote clouding the judgment of otherwise sensible people. Though its importance is wildly exaggerated, the effort to win more Hispanic votes isn’t a bad idea; it’s just that this isn’t the way to do it. The Hispanic voters most likely to back Republicans are the very law-and-order, God-and-country traditionalists who are left cold by talk of amnesty. A Zogby poll conducted shortly before 9/11 found Hispanics evenly split on amnesty. In fact, twice as many Hispanics in the survey said support for amnesty would make them less likely to vote for the president as said it would make them more likely to support him. And when it came to congressional elections, support for amnesty would lose four Hispanic votes for each one gained. Even more important politically, of course, is the fact that amnesty is poison to the president’s conservative base. In fact, there are few policies more likely to hurt Republican prospects. The same Zogby poll found conservatives opposing amnesty 2-to-1, with about one-third of the total saying they would actually be less likely to vote for the president if he supported an amnesty.

But you don’t need a pollster to tell you that. After Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge in December called for giving illegals “some kind of legal status,” Rush Limbaugh, who has customarily remained aloof from the immigration issue, spent 20 minutes of air time lambasting him. Rep. Tom Tancredo, the Colorado Republican and outspoken head of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, called for Ridge to start enforcing the law or resign. Earlier in the fall, Rep. J. D. Hayworth, an Arizona Republican, got 63 colleagues to sign a letter to President Bush urging him to reject “any and all forms of amnesty.” And columnists from Michelle Malkin to Phyllis Schlafly to Paul Weyrich have repeatedly weighed in to blast amnesty.

So, again, how can smart people think there’s something to be gained from amnesty? The answer is that Beltway and Wall Street Republicans live in an elite echo chamber, where the received wisdom about immigration goes unchallenged by respectable people. We conservatives assume this kind of groupthink is just a liberal malady. After all, which of us hasn’t laughed at the comment by the New Yorker writer who remarked after Nixon’s 1972 landslide, “I can’t believe it! I don’t know a single person who voted for him!”? But on immigration, the disconnect between elite and public opinion crosses party lines. The Chicago Council of Foreign Relations in 2002 polled the public and opinion leaders on a variety of foreign-policy-related issues, and found the gap to be greatest on immigration. The poll found that 70 percent of the public said that reducing illegal immigration should be a “very important” foreign-policy goal, compared with only 22 percent of elites. The elite/public disconnect was even greater than on issues where you would expect a wide gap, like support for foreign aid or globalization or even the U.N.

The Wall Street Journal’s editorial page exemplifies this disconnect. So constructive on other issues, the paper is wholly out of touch with America on immigration. Building on its prior record (it has repeatedly called for a constitutional amendment that says, “There shall be open borders”), the Journal responded to Secretary Ridge’s call for amnesty by saying that he deserves a raise.

Republicans need to save the president from his advisers, lest amnesty become for him what illegal-alien driver’s licenses were for Gray Davis: the disaster he embraced because everyone he knew thought it was a good idea. Amnesty shouldn’t even be discussed until our immigration system has been fixed. When it comes to considering tax increases, the rallying cry of Republicans has always been “cut spending first.” In the context of an illegal-alien amnesty, their cry must be “control immigration first.” The White House seems to think that they have put in place the needed immigration-control tools and that they can now move to the next step. In fact, though, we are years away from the infrastructure that we need to protect our borders. And even then, we need to see eight or ten years of proven, ongoing, border control and interior enforcement, with a properly functioning and motivated immigration bureaucracy and a steadily declining illegal-alien population. Only then is it appropriate even to raise the issue of amnesty for the remaining long-term illegals whom we didn’t manage to deport or who didn’t leave on their own. Nor is immigration control a pipe dream, or achievable only with machine guns and land mines on the border. We need only the political will to uphold the law using ordinary law-enforcement tools, and to resist measures that make things worse, such as new guest-worker programs. Once the message gets out that it’s not business as usual any longer, the illegal population will shrink through attrition, and we will wonder why we were paralyzed for so long by this problem.

 


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; Mexico; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: aliens; amnesty; borderlist; illegalaliens; illegalimmigration; illegals; immigrantlist; immigration; krikorian

1 posted on 04/24/2006 12:47:23 PM PDT by Dr. Marten
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To: HiJinx

Ping!


2 posted on 04/24/2006 12:48:10 PM PDT by Dr. Marten
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To: Dr. Marten

Watch out a Cat5 about to hit the border their best friend just offered them the keys to this country.


3 posted on 04/24/2006 12:49:34 PM PDT by stopem (If we need a "guest worker" we'll call........if the phone doesn't ring it's me!)
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To: stopem

History will flush Bush like it did his father. What a waste of 8 precious important years. (Yes I know it could have been a lot worse)


4 posted on 04/24/2006 12:52:28 PM PDT by samadams2000 (Somebody important make The Call.....pitchforks and lanterns.!)
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To: Dr. Marten
The answer is that Beltway and Wall Street Republicans live in an elite echo chamber, where the received wisdom about immigration goes unchallenged by respectable people.

Yep...I think the only input they receive is their own absurd pronouncements reflected from the walls of their collective echo chambers.

5 posted on 04/24/2006 1:02:54 PM PDT by kimosabe31
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To: Dr. Marten
amnesty is not the major issue, border insecurity is. Amnesty is clouding the real issue.
6 posted on 04/24/2006 1:12:04 PM PDT by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: street_lawyer
"amnesty is not the major issue, border insecurity is. Amnesty is clouding the real issue."

___________________________________________________________

To the millions of Americans who have been made citizens legally, Amnesty is indeed a very major issue.

To the tens of thousands of family members of those who have emigrated here LEGALLY and who are patiently waiting in the "legal line" to obtain US citizenship, it is indeed a very major issue.


To those of us who do not believe that gate crashing should be rewarded with US citizenship...Amnesty is indeed a major issue.

Some of us have had fathers, brothers, uncles and others who have spilled blood to protect the sovereignty of this great nation. To us, amnesty is a major issue.

Granting these tax scofflaws and illegal trespassers who have abused the American taxpayer for so long amnesty is a slap in the face and most definitely an UN-AMERICAN thing to do.

To those of us who realize that these illegals first act on US territory was to break the law.....amnesty is indeed a major issue.

For those of us who are damned sick and tired of having our property taxes shoot into the stratosphere to cover the cost of housing, schooling and incarceration of these illegals....amnesty is indeed a major issue.
7 posted on 04/24/2006 1:25:02 PM PDT by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: samadams2000

Gee, would Gore or Kerry have been better?

These days I don't seem to vote FOR candidates. I vote AGAINST their opponents.


8 posted on 04/24/2006 1:27:24 PM PDT by Little Ray (I'm a reactionary, hirsute, gun-owning, knuckle dragging, Christian Neanderthal and proud of it!)
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To: Little Ray

Agree. We are better off. Just a huge disappointment. So what else is new.?


9 posted on 04/24/2006 1:38:56 PM PDT by samadams2000 (Somebody important make The Call.....pitchforks and lanterns.!)
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To: Dr. Marten

First stop the leak. Protect our borders! Then deal with the illegal aliens within. It does not make sense to get more mops and buckets without stopping the leak first. The "Ship of State" will sink with this plain stupid approach to our problem. Implementing a failed policy is insane. Providing amnesty to aliens already here we have again and again while ignoring the real problem; insecure borders!


10 posted on 04/24/2006 2:04:19 PM PDT by olezip
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To: Dr. Marten; street_lawyer

Amnesty is a policy designed to protect the invasion army already inside the borders and to promote the rapid buildup of reinforcements. Our politicians are not stupid. Every one of them knows this, except maybe McKinney. A few oppose it because of that. Most suppport amnesty because it provides employees for the companies who give them money or it provides voters for Democrats. Republican amnesty supporters don't seem to understand, however that all those additional voters may just make the Republican Party extinct. Or maybe they truly cannot see anything beyond the next check.


11 posted on 04/24/2006 2:45:21 PM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them OVER THERE than here.)
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To: olezip
We need to build the wall, at the same time effectively

criminalize hiring of illegals. It matters not how "unfair" that is to employers. The problem is we are losing the country. By criminalizartion I mean jail time for company CEOs and personnel managers and clerks and for housewives and homeowners that hire nannies and lawn people.. There should also be per man/day fines consistently and avidly collected. This is war, either a different war or perhaps another front in the Islamic War, just as the Japanese War was not really integrally connected witht the German War. They were still the same War and both fronts had to be prosecuted to victory.

12 posted on 04/24/2006 2:52:47 PM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them OVER THERE than here.)
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To: arthurus

bttt


13 posted on 04/24/2006 10:41:47 PM PDT by Pelham (Treason: Not just for Democrats anymore)
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To: taxed2death

 To the millions of Americans who have been made citizens legally, Amnesty is indeed a very major issue.

 I am aware of this argument advanced by some talk show entertainers and others, but abiding by the law is its own reward, and I like to think that it is of no concern to one servant what the other servant is being paid. If Amnesty is a reward then it is in response to a failed immigration policy and a failed policy between the US and Mexico.

 As a result if your argument the Republican party should be the laughing stock of liberal Democrats who relish in the infighting. There are some misguided people who have expressed an unwillingness to vote Republican because of views like yours. Oh the Dems love them I'm sure!

How do you intend to arrest 11 million hardworking illegals? Would you put them in concentration camps like FDR did with Japanese Americans?

Your rhetoric is enticing, and I agree that criminal behavior should not be rewarded. Perhaps my concept of a “guilty mind” leads me to excuse illegal who came here, not for nefarious reasons, but to feed their families. When did I feed you? When you fed one of my little ones?  Disdain is not for poor unfortunate people who have not committed any crime which is immoral, but simply disobeyed a prohibited act which I think is unfair to many who could contribute to our Nation. 

Those of you who are worried but loosing jobs, go to school and learn a trade or profession.

The so called Amnesty would require that a person prove that he has paid taxes, (you are aware no doubt that illegals can get a tax ID from the IRS), pay a fine of $2000 (thus the reward argument is specious), and they must be able to speak English.

14 posted on 04/26/2006 9:21:28 AM PDT by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: arthurus
Would you agree that if a person comes here to work and pays taxes and sends money back to Mexico to a family would otherwise starve has no criminal intent?

The problem is that Mexico has a corrupt government and until the US can do something about that, you better lean to speak Spanish, or give them a way to legally immigrate or work, if they can speak English. It's hard for me to be one the same said of an issue as Kennedy and McCain, but on this one they make more sense then that great american talkshow entertainer.
15 posted on 04/26/2006 9:28:11 AM PDT by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: street_lawyer
"How do you intend to arrest 11 million hardworking illegals? Would you put them in concentration camps like FDR did with Japanese Americans?"

Now it's YOU who sound like a Dum-a-crat. That statement is just too stupid to waste any bandwidth responding too.

___________________________________________________________

"Perhaps my concept of a “guilty mind” leads me to excuse illegal who came here, not for nefarious reasons, but to feed their families. "

Yea, like the 1/3rd of California's prison population. Take the rose colored glasses off Amigo.

_________________________________________________________


"Those of you who are worried but loosing jobs, go to school and learn a trade or profession."


Totally asinine statement. Stop off at your local trade high school and ask the soon to be grads WHO is taking their jobs in the trades they've trained for 4 years.

Get a clue, then come back and try posting again.
16 posted on 04/26/2006 12:21:28 PM PDT by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: street_lawyer

The intentions of the illegal immigrant are immaterial. His effect on the economy and our welfare system is the problem. And, yes, he set out to violate American law by crossing that border and everything he does follows from that. He has no moral problem about violating laws and will violate them wherever it serves to gain him immediate economic advantage. I know a number of families that include large numbers of illegals. The Mex restaurants are full of them and their attitude is that they will get whatever they can get by whatever means seems useful. Those who can see beyond the next 30 minutes generally try to avoid breaches that will get them arrested but often misjudge and their families move them to another community immediately if they are not "caught in the act."


17 posted on 04/26/2006 1:21:51 PM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them OVER THERE than here.)
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To: street_lawyer

The Mexican government is not a problem we can solve and solving our problem by saying that well their government is at fault so we are absolved from pursuing useful solutions is the same attitude that gets some people killed in traffic. A driver sees another car violating the rules and continues on his own path into a wreck saying that well it is the other guy's fault and his insurance must pay. That is not a rare attitude, unfortunately.


18 posted on 04/26/2006 1:26:36 PM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them OVER THERE than here.)
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To: street_lawyer
Where do you people come from ? You make no sense, you babble about "your" feelings. You dismiss the blood and treasure spilled by generations of our family members. And then you have the gall to tell people to go back to school.....for what ? So they can have that job replaced by illegal aliens ?

It's hard to take some one like you seriously.
19 posted on 04/26/2006 1:31:32 PM PDT by NHFREE
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To: street_lawyer

BTW Lawyer......NO one is starving in Mexico !


20 posted on 04/26/2006 1:34:16 PM PDT by NHFREE
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To: taxed2death

 That statement is just too stupid to waste any bandwidth responding too.

 Sir, if you cannot respond intelligently, then do not waste my precious time.

21 posted on 04/26/2006 1:41:54 PM PDT by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: arthurus
What exactly is the effect of an illegal who is paying taxes to the government, as compared to a legal worker? Kennedy/McCain reqire that anyone who is allowed to work prove they have paid taxes, pay a $2000 fine, and be able to speak English. Were you aware of those conditions?
22 posted on 04/26/2006 1:45:01 PM PDT by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: arthurus
I agree that we must pursue "useful" solutions, I just happen to believe that finding 11 million indigenous people out of 300 million is not practical. So I support President Bush and will vote for the next republican president whoever he or she may be.

You are aware of course that a civilian can not make an arrest? You are also probably aware that the IRS hands out tax ID's to illegals so they can pay taxes. Are you opposed to that also?
23 posted on 04/26/2006 1:48:57 PM PDT by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: NHFREE
BTW Lawyer......NO one is starving in Mexico !

Let me start by saying I didn't become a lawyer by sitting on my hands. I'm proud of my profession. Next time try to argue the facts.

24 posted on 04/26/2006 1:55:00 PM PDT by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: taxed2death
He's most likely an immigration lawyer. Either way, he's typical of the "hollowed out" kind of person you find lurching about in the Western world as it declines. No real sense of country, duty, or honor......though, lol, he did mention "his feelings". So, always, in the end, its emotionalism in place of rational thought which is why he offered up the concentration camp canard.
25 posted on 04/26/2006 1:58:52 PM PDT by NHFREE
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To: street_lawyer
I'm impressed. you are a lawyer, whopp-de-do. Now, as to facts: show me the data, or facts bot starvation in Mexico.
26 posted on 04/26/2006 2:01:33 PM PDT by NHFREE
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To: street_lawyer

"Sir, if you cannot respond intelligently, then do not waste my precious time."

I should be saying that to you. Please find in any of my posts where I said we needed to round up and arrest 11 million people. You cant. That was YOUR idiotic suggestion not mine.

see below:

"How do you intend to arrest 11 million hardworking illegals? Would you put them in concentration camps like FDR did with Japanese Americans?"


27 posted on 04/26/2006 2:58:17 PM PDT by taxed2death (A few billion here, a few trillion there...we're all friends right?)
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To: street_lawyer
Quite aware. They are irrelevant to the problem. You either have widespread easy citizenship or you maintain the status quo, a huge moving mass of illegals flooding our cities and small towns. Those who cannot provide the the necessary paper will simply stay as they are. Meanwhile the prospect or the existence of some sort of amnesty draws/is drawing a greatly increased number of these people north. The goal of the amnesty proposals seems to be to increase the flow of illegals from South and Central America as well as Mexico and our cities are losing whole tracts to the gangs. Europe has its no-go areas that are turned over to the alien populations to govern as they will and we have our own barrios where we are beginning to do the same. In some of the midwestern cities the arrangement seems to be explicit now.

And it is a goal, I think. It brings voters for the Democrats and cheap labor for Republicans and Democrats- for the construction sites and for Hollywood lawns. I wish that Republican enthusiasts could see far enough to understand that the Republican Party will itself be swamped by this. The new citizens will be 90-99% Democrat voters and the illegals will remain 100% Democrat voters.

28 posted on 04/27/2006 5:21:44 AM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them OVER THERE than here.)
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To: street_lawyer
No. We cannot catch and deport them. We can create a situation where some leave voluntarily and the population of them goes down rather than inexorably up. Again: put their employers in jail, from CEO to personnel clerk. Fine the companies on a per man/day basis. Put state and local officials and clerks in jail who render or offer taxpaid services to illegals. Jail medical personnel who treat them on taxpayer money except for childbirth services- new mothers to be deported immediately with the option of taking their new citizens with them or leaving them to be adopted out with no records of the adoption retained.

This is not so drastic as it may seem. It would have to be Implemented, then some enforcement actions would have to take place, perhaps a bunch of them at first. The companies would divest themselves of the problem en masse and state and local welfare would dry up rapidly. After that it would only take a random few but widespread inspections that would probably net very few violators. We don't have to round up hordes of aliens for deportation, just make it unremunerative for them to exist here. When the enforcement people descend on a company they don't have to take all the illegals into custody, just the responsible personnel in the company.Initially it only has to happen a few times. Employers and bureaucrats learn what is not in their interests. It's a market thing.

Some local exceptions to the bureaucratic self preservation rule would probably occur but would you be terribly upset if the city government in Berkely,Cal. went to jail? or San Francisco?

29 posted on 04/27/2006 5:40:21 AM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them OVER THERE than here.)
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To: street_lawyer

I will vote for the Republican in 08 because of the war, or the Islamic Front war anyway. If we lose that part of it then the Southern Front is pretty much irrelevant just as the country and its Constitution will be. Victory over the Mohammedans without turning the latin invasion will just be giving the Democrats a few years to rule before we become a large temporarily still rich latin style republic. The Democrats' power will be based on the latins and when we get that Dem administration citizenship will be conferred in the Superdome(Astro- and the other great arenas) a la Clinton and culturally the country will change fundamentally and rapidly.


30 posted on 04/27/2006 5:50:17 AM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them OVER THERE than here.)
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To: taxed2death
taxed, the problem is evident ally that I did not pick that your post was (sarcasm) I apologize.
31 posted on 05/04/2006 9:00:58 AM PDT by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: arthurus
Many of the illegals are Christian and may not necessarily support a secularist democratic party. But having said that, the problem is not the illegals working on the lawns in the Hollywood hills. The problem is that our borders are porous and our immigration laws are exclusionary. Only about 66,000 temporary workers are allowed to enter from Mexico. If they pay taxes and are subject to the same laws as Americans, then the only reason they will hold a job is because they work harder.
32 posted on 05/04/2006 9:08:14 AM PDT by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: arthurus

I thought of making the employer the enforcer, but to do so one has to prove the employer knew or should have known his employee is illegal. In effect the employer would have to do the work of the immigration service.

I would expect that if the jobs were not there then some, perhaps many would turn to crime. Do you know what segment of the population commits the most crime? Just a thought.


33 posted on 05/04/2006 9:12:46 AM PDT by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: arthurus
"I will vote for the Republican in 08 because of the war, or the Islamic Front war anyway."

You make sense. I suspect that some dems are joining in with ultra conservatives like Hannity to bash the President for trying to pass the guest worker program.

Hannity asks "what would Reagan do?". Well Sean, he signed the last amnesty bill, remember?
34 posted on 05/04/2006 9:17:40 AM PDT by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: street_lawyer

I remember. It was the hard kernel in the bag of buttery popcorn.


35 posted on 05/04/2006 9:36:03 AM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them OVER THERE than here.)
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To: street_lawyer

Most of them are Christian formally but do not plug in the ramifications. The illegals vote solely for Democrats. Republicans are not quite that instinctively chicanerous (how bout that- a neologism and a bad pun all in one) in the matter of fraudulent voting. As citizens they will tend to vote for Democrats because it is Democrats who are crying about "rights" and it is Democrats who most closely resemble the Mexican political system. Like refugees in America, Californians running away to Colorado and Idaho, New Yorkers escaping to Florida etc., they are intent on replicating in their new home the system that they have worked so hard to escape. It takes at least 2 American born generations before some Republican votes will appear and then not many.


36 posted on 05/04/2006 9:47:24 AM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them OVER THERE than here.)
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To: street_lawyer
Unfair as it seems, making the employers responsible is the only way we can get a handle on it. Employers are much easier to "catch" and punishing one employer taps multiple illegals while catching an illegal is only effective on that one illegal. By sanctioning the employers you remove the incentive to get one's back wet. Arresting and deporting the illegal is no different, though less unpleasant, than failing to make the crossing or dying in the desert. It is no disincentive. To others it is just, 'well, he got caught.' If you hurt some employers, most of the rest will cease the practice and there is no bright shining goal left to run for.

Also cut off the benefit of anchor babies by letting the new mom choose to take the baby back with her as she is deported or leave it for anonymous adoption and there is no anchor and we correct in a tiny way for the birth dearth.

37 posted on 05/04/2006 9:59:19 AM PDT by arthurus (Better to fight them OVER THERE than here.)
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