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The Ingraham Effect? 'Today' Leads With Good News from Iraq
Today Show/NewsBusters ^ | Mark Finkelstein

Posted on 03/23/2006 4:59:02 AM PST by governsleastgovernsbest

by Mark Finkelstein

March 23, 2006

Call it the Ingraham Effect. Two days after Laura Ingraham sent shockwaves through the MSM with a Today show appearance in which she charged that the media accentuate the negative in their Iraqi coverage, and just the day after a palpably stung Today responded with a segment defending its coverage, Today led its show this morning . . . with good news from Iraq.

To be sure, Today would under any circumstances have covered the freeing of three self-styled Christian peace activists. Story here. But would Today have otherwise highlighted the story in the way that it did? In the show's very opening, Katie dramatically intoned:

"Good morning. Breaking news: US-led forces in Iraq launch a dramatic rescue operation and free three Western hostages." In fact, the news wasn't quite breaking. It had occured many hours earlier and had been widely-covered overnight.

Guest host David Gregory, who had aggressively sparred with Ingraham during her appearance, enthused: "What good news to report this morning. Those freed hostages. Two Canadians and a British national are safe this morning four months after they were kidnapped in Iraq."

(Excerpt) Read more at newsbusters.org ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: davidgregory; freedhostages; iraq; katiecouric; lauraingraham; mediabias; richardengel; todayshow; wot
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1 posted on 03/23/2006 4:59:07 AM PST by governsleastgovernsbest
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To: Behind Liberal Lines; Miss Marple; an amused spectator; netmilsmom; Diogenesis; YaYa123; MEG33; ...

Today Show/NewsBusters ping.


2 posted on 03/23/2006 4:59:30 AM PST by governsleastgovernsbest (Watching the Today Show Since 2002 So You Don't Have To.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
"the freeing of three self-styled Christian peace activists"

They weren't "freed", they were rescued. The MSM does more of their subtle dirty work.

3 posted on 03/23/2006 5:01:50 AM PST by LZ_Bayonet
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

GO LAURA GO


4 posted on 03/23/2006 5:02:44 AM PST by OldFriend (HELL IS TOO GOOD FOR OUR MAINSTREAM MEDIA)
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To: LZ_Bayonet
The MSM does more of their subtle dirty work.

Nice catch. So true.

5 posted on 03/23/2006 5:05:28 AM PST by PGalt
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
glgb, I've thanked you for watching and reporting Couric's spin on the Today Show on several threads. Yet I'm afraid that sitting through and regurgitating David Gregory appearances may qualify you as a true glutton for punishment. I don't know how you stand it. You deserve a really big thank you.
6 posted on 03/23/2006 5:05:35 AM PST by Quilla
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
Same routine on Imus this morning. I flicked over during a Mike & Mike commercial and there was an NBC reporter doing a Ralph Kramden about the coverage.

Go Laura go, indeed!

7 posted on 03/23/2006 5:06:43 AM PST by Dahoser (Time to condense the spending nonsense: Terry Tate for OMB head.)
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To: OldFriend

Frame this segment of the Today Show, it will be the last of good news from them for a long time.


8 posted on 03/23/2006 5:06:46 AM PST by buck61 (luv6060)
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To: Quilla

I sincerely appreciate the kind words. But don't thank me - thank the Prilosec OTC that makes it all possible ;-)


9 posted on 03/23/2006 5:08:16 AM PST by governsleastgovernsbest (Watching the Today Show Since 2002 So You Don't Have To.)
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To: buck61
Frame this segment of the Today Show, it will be the last of good news from them for a long time.

I agree..."ok, there ya go. Now that's IT! We now return to our steady drivel of death, mayhem and destruction. Film at 11."

10 posted on 03/23/2006 5:09:28 AM PST by tsmith130
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

bump


11 posted on 03/23/2006 5:09:32 AM PST by AmericaUnite
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

"This morning NBC News continued to defend itself against charges of aiding the Iraqi insurgency by airing a relatively positive story about progress in that war-torn country."

(file under "language we'll never see.")


12 posted on 03/23/2006 5:09:55 AM PST by Steely Tom (Your taboos are not my taboos.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

I don't think it has anything to do with Ingraham.
They want to make a deal in hopeful preparation of having these anti-war guys on their show soon. What better than to have more negative talk about the war from hostages?


13 posted on 03/23/2006 5:12:54 AM PST by nuconvert ([there's a lot of bad people in the pistachio business])
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To: LZ_Bayonet

The "freeing" language was mine, not the Today show's. And believe me, I did not intend to belittle the role of the military. Obviously it was the military that freed the hostages. In any case, I have changed the word to 'rescue' in the NewsBusters article. You'll also note that I referred to the rescued people as 'self-styled' peace activists, reflecting my view that their actions do little or nothing to contribute to peace.


14 posted on 03/23/2006 5:14:05 AM PST by governsleastgovernsbest (Watching the Today Show Since 2002 So You Don't Have To.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest; All
For those who did not see the segment or need a reminder about what was said yesterday, Mark Finkelstein has a transcript at Laura in the Lions Den, Carville Advises W to Talk About Failure
15 posted on 03/23/2006 5:14:43 AM PST by Racehorse (Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

Nightline was also very concerned about Christians in Afghanistan last night, since it was a chance to make W look bad. "Is this why we went to war, to spread democracy, so this Christian convert could be executed?"


16 posted on 03/23/2006 5:15:57 AM PST by FlyVet (MSM: We'd rather lose than admit we were wrong.)
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To: PGalt; All
Western hostages freed after coalition raid(Scotsman.com)

THREE Western hostages, including 74 year-old British peace activist Norman Kember, have been released from captivity in Iraq after a raid by coalition forces. The rescue operation took place in Mishahda, 20 miles north of Baghdad and involved special forces from various countries, including Britain.

Mr Kember and two Canadian colleagues were kidnapped in Baghdad last November along with an American, Tom Fox, whose body was found dumped in the Iraqi capital two weeks ago. The four had been working for a Canadian charity, Christian Peacemaker Teams. A previously unknown group, the "Swords of Righteousness Brigades" claimed responsibility for the kidnappings.

Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, said: "I understand that Mr Kember is in reasonable condition and he is now in the Green Zone. The two Canadians had to have hospital treatment. "I have got no further information that I can give you about the nature of this operation. It was an operation led by the multinational force. It involved British forces."

17 posted on 03/23/2006 5:20:19 AM PST by johnny7 (“Nah, I ain’t Jewish, I just don’t dig on swine, that’s all.”)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

From yesterday:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1600861/posts

Indeed, Engel's report confirmed Ingraham's allegation that the MSM portray Iraq in a consistently negative light. At one point, Engel asserted that "reporting on everyday life is increasingly dangerous because life here is getting more dangerous." And incredibly, Engel closed by claiming that, if anything, NBC's coverage was . . . not negative enough.

When Gregory asked "is security the overall story?" Engel replied:

"Most Iraqis I speak to say most reporters get it wrong. The situation on the ground is worse than the images we project on television."



FLASHBACK:

http://www.mrc.org/cyberalerts/2005/cyb20050112.asp#1


Back live indoors, Engel concluded: "Ann, one of the things I'll remember most about this experience was as I was standing there obviously unarmed, feeling very exposed wearing a bright blue flak jacket was there was a soldier standing next to me. I didn't know him I hadn't even noticed him before. And suddenly as the gunshots were coming at us he came over to me and said, 'It's gonna be okay, don't worry.' And he actually stepped right in front of me protecting me with his body and started to return fire at the insurgents. And I just remember thinking that this is one of the small acts of heroism, I think you can say, that I so rarely get a chance to see and even less frequently report about. Ann."


18 posted on 03/23/2006 5:20:21 AM PST by maggief (and the dessert cart rolls on ...)
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To: FlyVet

David Gregory grilled White House spokesman Dan Bartlett on that issue on this morning's Today. Bartlett said that the President had used forceful language to emphasize that the proposed execution in Afghanistan of a Muslim convert to Christianity was not in keeping with the country's international obligations.


19 posted on 03/23/2006 5:20:26 AM PST by governsleastgovernsbest (Watching the Today Show Since 2002 So You Don't Have To.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
"The "freeing" language was mine, not the Today show's."

You may have been the victim, as we all are, of a subtle pro-terrorist nuance intiated by the Associated Press. The AP release on this story uses "freed" instead of rescue. It even makes it appear that Blair uses "freed" by placing the word immediately after his quote (though I don't know what he actually said). My local radio station was reading the AP copy and used "freed" but has now changed to "Rescued!" as the lead-in to the story. Someone must have called the station.

20 posted on 03/23/2006 5:22:39 AM PST by LZ_Bayonet
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
Three Christian peace activists freed in coalition military operation

Baghdad, March. 23 (AP): U.S. and British forces freed one Briton and two Canadians early Thursday in a military operation, ending a four-month hostage drama in which an American among the group was shot to death and dumped on a Baghdad street earlier this month.

The Iraqi Interior Ministry said the captives were rescued in the joint U.S.-British operation in rural area northwest of Baghdad, between the towns of Mishahda, 30 kilometers (20 miles) north of Baghdad, and the western suburb of Abu Ghraib, 20 kilometers (12 miles) from downtown.

British officials in Baghdad said those freed were Canadians James Loney, 41, and Harmeet Singh Sooden, 32; and Briton Norman Kember, 74.

21 posted on 03/23/2006 5:22:48 AM PST by ChadGore (VISUALIZE 62,041,268 Bush fans. We Vote.)
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To: maggief
“It's a maaaadhouse!”


22 posted on 03/23/2006 5:23:18 AM PST by johnny7 (“Nah, I ain’t Jewish, I just don’t dig on swine, that’s all.”)
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To: buck61

Every now and then the Today crew makes an effort to be objective. It's always such a shock to the system!!!!!


23 posted on 03/23/2006 5:26:20 AM PST by OldFriend (HELL IS TOO GOOD FOR OUR MAINSTREAM MEDIA)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

Yes, Laura really started something good! Before Richard Engle was on TODAY, he got grilled pretty good by Imus, who wanted to know, "why are we only reporting the bad news?" Seemed pretty clear to me, though unspoken, that Imus was reacting to Laura too.


24 posted on 03/23/2006 5:26:41 AM PST by YaYa123
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

But all the NBC & MSNBC channels are at war with Ms Ingraham. I watched Keith Olberman last night because Hugh Hewitt had said he was going to be a guest. I did not even know which channel KO was on before last night.

Olberman was practically chewing on the videocamera while discussing Laura's challenge to legacy media reporters in Iraq. Wow! I was shocked and disgusted, and tried to think of any conservative news show hosts that showed that much anger on TV, and only Michael Savage came to mind. And he did not last very long in the medium.

Is this kind of bile what MSNBC viewers see all the time?


25 posted on 03/23/2006 5:27:44 AM PST by maica (You are being lied to. By elements in the media determined that Iraq must fail. - Ralph Peters)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
One talkshow host said that Gregory was on Today at his boss's (Russert's) insistence for rehabilitation -- to show his personable side -- after his recent successful attempts at making an ass of himself as part of the White House Press Corps.
26 posted on 03/23/2006 5:28:56 AM PST by TomGuy
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

Obviously it was the military that freed the hostages.

@@@@@

I am waiting to hear the thanks that these activists offer to the coalition forces who freed them. Do you think they will ever say thanks on camera?


27 posted on 03/23/2006 5:30:02 AM PST by maica (You are being lied to. By elements in the media determined that Iraq must fail. - Ralph Peters)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
It certainly helped considerably, but I think it's a combination of things including the speech yesterday when an outraged American citizen got up and said it like it is and the entire auditorium erupted in massive applause.

I think the MSM is finally figuring out it's gone too far and it's no longer fooling anyone (except the most simple minded among us)

28 posted on 03/23/2006 5:30:31 AM PST by McGavin999 (The US media is afflicted with Attention Deficit Disorder)
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To: TomGuy

Very interesting - thanks for passing along. Gregory's "what good news!" this morning really did strike me as forced. Guess now we know why!


29 posted on 03/23/2006 5:31:19 AM PST by governsleastgovernsbest (Watching the Today Show Since 2002 So You Don't Have To.)
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To: maica
Do you think they will ever say thanks on camera?

Excellent question. IMHO, it's roughly as likely as Wichita State winning the NCAAs.

30 posted on 03/23/2006 5:33:06 AM PST by governsleastgovernsbest (Watching the Today Show Since 2002 So You Don't Have To.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
Two comments on this topic:

1) CNN is reporting over and over that the hostages were "released". They frame the story as terrorists letting the hostages go.

2) Laura Ingraham was instrumental in NBC leading with good news but I think the most swaying factor was the standing ovation by the audience yesterday at Bush's town hall meeting at the mention of the media not reporting good news. It's one thing for a pundit to make a charge but quite another when you see a room full of potential viewers protesting your networks coverage.
31 posted on 03/23/2006 5:37:12 AM PST by Republican Red ("How good is it? Al-Jazeera gave it 4 1/2 pipe bombs")
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To: Thud

ping


32 posted on 03/23/2006 5:37:23 AM PST by Dark Wing
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

Christopher Hitchens said last night on Hugh Hewitt's show that it is time to drop the term "peace activists" - he was not talking about these hostages, but about the Susan Sarandons, Michael Moores, etc - and say what they are - activists for the other side. They want the US to lose, because they do not like the US being the "sole superpower." And of course, they do not want President Bush to have any kind of success.


33 posted on 03/23/2006 5:40:03 AM PST by maica (You are being lied to. By elements in the media determined that Iraq must fail. - Ralph Peters)
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To: maica

Olbermann Attacks Laura Ingraham For Questioning The Media (VIDEO)


OLBERMANN: A note about Laura Ingraham’s comments: I’ve known her for a long time. I’ll in fact give you the caveat that I’ve known her socially. But that hotel balcony crack was unforgivable. It was unforgivable to the memory of David Bloom, it was unforgivable in the consideration of Bob Woodruff and Doug Voigt, it was unforgivable in the light of what happened to Michael Kelly and what happened to Michael Weiskopf. It was unforgivable with Jill Carroll still a hostage in Iraq. It’s not only unforgivable, it was desperate and it was stupid.


http://www.exposetheleft.com/2006/03/22/olbermann-ingraham/


34 posted on 03/23/2006 5:46:06 AM PST by maggief (and the dessert cart rolls on ...)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
Eagle God Bless our Troops.
35 posted on 03/23/2006 5:47:35 AM PST by EmilyGeiger
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

Sit down, if you're standing;) Good Morning America began its day with "a surprising poll" they took yesterday. Seems they received "1800 responses" to their question: "What would YOU like to hear in the news regarding Iraq?". And, PLEASE SIT AS YOU READ THIS: Charlie Gibson was surprised that "the majority of responders wanted more good news stories coming from Iraq." They went on to flit and flitter around good/bad news, what exactly that means, and actually ended on this quip from their Iraqi reporter: "How can we give good news when the Iraqi citizens we interview have very little good things to say? They want to know why there is still no electricity in places", blah, blah. If I understand this whole circle jerk by ABC, it's that they would be happy to report good news, IF THEY COULD FIND SOME. But they promise to trudge on, looking, looking, for the elusive happy Iraqi. PFFFFFTTTTT>>>>


36 posted on 03/23/2006 5:49:01 AM PST by small voice in the wilderness (If the ledge fails, is it still considered suicide?)
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To: maica

Very interesting. I've actually taken the liberty of posting your comment [with attribution to Free Republic] over at NewsBusters in response to a poster there who questioned my use of the term 'self-styled' as it applied to the 'peace activists.'


37 posted on 03/23/2006 5:49:19 AM PST by governsleastgovernsbest (Watching the Today Show Since 2002 So You Don't Have To.)
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To: small voice in the wilderness

Very interesting - thanks for posting! Wish I had seen it. So much MSM bias, so little time ;-)


38 posted on 03/23/2006 5:50:22 AM PST by governsleastgovernsbest (Watching the Today Show Since 2002 So You Don't Have To.)
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To: McGavin999

I'm interested to see how long this will last. I don't really think they know how to report fairly.


39 posted on 03/23/2006 5:51:25 AM PST by brwnsuga (Proud, Black, Conservative!)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

Good news. I bet Kuric was weeping while she said this. She hates good news coming from Iraq. Ideological differences with fellow travelers.


40 posted on 03/23/2006 5:52:31 AM PST by truemiester (If the U.S. should fail, a veil of darkness will come over the Earth for a thousand years)
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To: OldFriend
Makes an effort to be objective. I never watch the Today Show
so I shouldn't be objective.
The following could be true with all the networks, I wouldn't know. It is said that Fox News turns away sponsor's for all
its broadcast shows. That sounds like a good demand for their product and I wonder if that is true for the MSM? If it isn't,
why can't the MSM see this demand from the conservative point of view, and be more objective to increase their viewer ship.
41 posted on 03/23/2006 5:52:35 AM PST by buck61 (luv6060)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
The "freeing" language was mine, not the Today show's..

It's not a good idea to change the language in a published article. Actually, it was the NewsBusters' writers words, not the Today's show. So, it changed what NewsBusters was trying to get across. If you change an articles words or add emphasis,let us know asap. Most people put a note like (emphasis mine).
42 posted on 03/23/2006 5:54:01 AM PST by bobsunshine
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To: brwnsuga
No they don't know how to report fairly, but they had better learn and fast. It became obvious to them yesterday that way too many people have figured them out and their very survival depends on them becoming quick learners.

Until recently, they've fooled themselves into believing that they were fair and were reporting fairly, but between the polls showing them among the least trusted, Laura's comments yesterday, and the overwhelming reaction of the crowd to the woman yesterday means that even the dumbest of them is finally starting to get it.

Add to that the President of the United States of America telling the public that there are other outlets for the news they want to get (blogs, internet news, talk radio, CENTCOM etc.) and the pucker factor in newsrooms across the country had to be at an all time high.

43 posted on 03/23/2006 6:00:13 AM PST by McGavin999 (The US media is afflicted with Attention Deficit Disorder)
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To: maica

Go to the CPT website and read their statement. Lots of digs at the US, about seven or eight paragraphs. Nowhere will you see the words THANK YOU.

Unrateful, self-righteous bastards. Like Jimmy Carter, steeped in a poisonous self-righteous pride. Proud of their humility.


44 posted on 03/23/2006 6:06:55 AM PST by Glock22
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

I really don't consider this to be a "good news" story. It makes these "peace activists" the central theme of the story and says nothing about the USG's positive efforts to rebuild Iraq and help the Iraqi people. Also, the MSM likes such stories because they can identify with them, i.e., they can be captured and killed ala Jill Carrol and Daniel Pearl. In another words, it is all about them.


45 posted on 03/23/2006 6:07:04 AM PST by kabar
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To: McGavin999

Can you tell me where I can find a link to the woman and/or speech you are speaking of?


46 posted on 03/23/2006 6:10:15 AM PST by brwnsuga (Proud, Black, Conservative!)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
I just found this on HHs website, where I think there is a transcript of Hitchens' interview:

MAYBE A "THANK YOU" WOULD BE APPROPRIATE? [Kathryn Jean Lopez] U.S.-led Coalition forces rescued peace-activist hostages in Iraq today. As you know, one of their colleagues, Tom Fox, was recently found dead, murdered by their captors.

So in their statement today, Christian Peacemaker Teams, says:

Harmeet, Jim and Norman and Tom were in Iraq to learn of the struggles facing the people in that country. They went, motivated by a passion for justice and peace to live out a nonviolent alternative in a nation wracked by armed conflict. They knew that their only protection was in the power of the love of God and of their Iraqi and international co-workers. We believe that the illegal occupation of Iraq by Multinational Forces is the root cause of the insecurity which led to this kidnapping and so much pain and suffering in Iraq. The occupation must end.

They couldn't get in just one "thanks for getting three of our guys out alive" before condemning 'em?

47 posted on 03/23/2006 6:13:28 AM PST by maica (You are being lied to. By elements in the media determined that Iraq must fail. - Ralph Peters)
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To: brwnsuga
This is from the transcript of the speech at West Virginia yesterday during the Q & A portion.

Q I have a comment, first of all, and then just a real quick question. I want to let you know that every service at our church you are, by name, lifted up in prayer, and you and your staff and all of our leaders. And we believe in you. We are behind you. And we cannot thank you enough for what you've done to shape our country. (Applause.)

This is my husband, who has returned from a 13-month tour in Tikrit.

THE PRESIDENT: Oh, yes. Thank you. Welcome back. (Applause.)

Q His job while serving was as a broadcast journalist. And he has brought back several DVDs full of wonderful footage of reconstruction, of medical things going on. And I ask you this from the bottom of my heart, for a solution to this, because it seems that our major media networks don't want to portray the good. They just want to focus -- (applause) --

THE PRESIDENT: Okay, hold on a second.

Q They just want to focus on another car bomb, or they just want to focus on some more bloodshed, or they just want to focus on how they don't agree with you and what you're doing, when they don't even probably know how you're doing what you're doing anyway. But what can we do to get that footage on CNN, on FOX, to get it on headline news, to get it on the local news? Because you can send it to the news people -- and I'm sorry, I'm rambling -- like I have --

THE PRESIDENT: So was I, though, for an hour. (Laughter.)

Q -- can you use this, and it will just end up in a drawer, because it's good, it portrays the good. And if people could see that, if the American people could see it, there would never be another negative word about this conflict.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I appreciate that. (Applause.) No, it -- that's why I come out and speak. I spoke in Cleveland, gave a press conference yesterday -- spoke in Cleveland Monday, press conference, here today. I'm going to continue doing what I'm doing to try to make sure people can hear there's -- why I make decisions, and as best as I can, explain why I'm optimistic we can succeed.

One of the things that we've got to value is the fact that we do have a media, free media, that's able to do what they want to do. And I'm not going to -- you're asking me to say something in front of all the cameras here. (Laughter.) Help over there, will you? (Laughter.)

I just got to keep talking. And one of the -- there's word of mouth, there's blogs, there's Internet, there's all kinds of ways to communicate which is literally changing the way people are getting their information. And so if you're concerned, I would suggest that you reach out to some of the groups that are supporting the troops, that have got Internet sites, and just keep the word -- keep the word moving. And that's one way to deal with an issue without suppressing a free press. We will never do that in America. I mean, the minute we start trying to suppress our press, we look like the Taliban. The minute we start telling people how to worship, we look like the Taliban. And we're not interested in that in America. We're the opposite. We believe in freedom. And we believe in freedom in all its forms. And obviously, I know you're frustrated with what you're seeing, but there are ways in this new kind of age, being able to communicate, that you'll be able to spread the message that you want to spread.

Thank you for your concerns, and thank you for your prayer. I want to tell you something interesting about the job of President, and, frankly, I didn't anticipate this part of the presidency, but it's an amazing part of my job to know that millions of people pray for me. It's a -- (applause.) It really is. It's -- think about that. Strangers stand up and say, in front of a couple thousand people, I'm praying for you. And it helps. And I appreciate it, and I want to thank you for your prayers. It helps do the job, it helps keep perspective.

48 posted on 03/23/2006 6:16:38 AM PST by McGavin999 (The US media is afflicted with Attention Deficit Disorder)
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To: brwnsuga

Oh, I forgot to mention, if you go to the Whitehouse site and watch the video of the speech you will see that the suble little (applause) line was a very loud and standing ovation!


49 posted on 03/23/2006 6:20:55 AM PST by McGavin999 (The US media is afflicted with Attention Deficit Disorder)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
here is the transcript from radioblogger:


HH: Christopher Hitchens, just objectively stepping back, is Iraq better off today than it was four years ago, given the documents we are now seeing, given what Robert Kaplan called the unbelievably Stalinist nature of Hussein's regime, and the mad as hatter sons who were in line and would never have given it up.

CH: Yes.

HH: What do you think?

CH: Oh, on that decision, there's only one way to argue it. It's not only a great deal better off than it was four years ago, but it's enormously better off than it would have been if it had been left to rot and crash under this mad despotism, which bear in mind, stayed in power by using the tactics of divided rule, and importing jihadists like Zarqawi, and the Fedayeen Saddam, who were going to be the suppressor regime. I mean, if you think it's bad now, just try and imagine what it would have been like if it had been left alone. And on that, I don't think there's any dispute at all. And by the way, I've made this point in countless arguments with so-called anti-war people, many of whom are actually pro-war, but on the other side, in public and in print and on television and on radio and in universities. I've never had any of them reply to my point there.

HH: When you say pro-war but on the other side, what do you mean, Christopher Hitchens?

CH: Well, I object to people like Michael Moore for example, or Ramsey Clark being referred to as...in the New York Times as anti-war activists, or anti-war campaigners. They're not anti-war at all. For one thing, they're not pacifists, particularly not Ramsey Clark. For another, they've declared that they believe the beheaders and jihadists and the blowers up of Mosques and mutilators of women and so forth are a liberation force or an insurgency. Michael Moore even said they were the modern equivalent to the American founding fathers. So in that case, fine. George Galloway's the same. Many of them are. They're not really against the war. They're not anti-war, but on the other side in the war for civilization, and they should be called out on it and given their right name.

HH: Do you believe that there are leaders in the Democratic Party in Congress who also belong to that caucus?

CH: No, I can't say that I do think that. I mean, maybe Cynthia McKinney, who is not exactly a leader. She seems sometimes to talk in a sort of MoveOn.org manner, but no, I think that we're far from that in this case. I think what you have there is again, a sort of fatalism, the feeling that if you can say a war is unwinnable, you've also said it's wrong. In other words, that you would desert the side you were on if you thought things were going badly. That's a moral degeneracy of a different kind.

HH: And is that so pervasive as to be irreversible, as we've got about 45 seconds left, in the Democratic Party?

CH: Yes, I believe so. I don't need 45 seconds to say that.
50 posted on 03/23/2006 6:22:54 AM PST by maica (You are being lied to. By elements in the media determined that Iraq must fail. - Ralph Peters)
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