The Swedish Media Massage (The disturbing truth about Sweden’s moral decay)

American Family Association ^ | February 17, 2006

[NYer]

The disturbing truth about Sweden’s moral decay should serve to sober us from our own complacent drunken stupor.

I recently had occasion to discuss religion and politics (dangerous ground, I know) with a Swedish mother of two visiting America. Sonya (not her real name) is a manager at a large investment house in Sweden. Her politics may be described as fiscally conservative and socially liberal. In a word, fashionable.

We chatted about the Swedish economy, city life versus country life, and agreed that high taxes were hard on families. So much for the preliminaries.

Then we dove into the issue of homosexual rights. Having found common ground on fiscal matters, Sonya was not prepared for how divergent our views were on “gay” rights. But our takes on Pastor Ake Green’s sermon on homosexuality could not have been farther apart had she been from another planet.

When it became obvious to her that I would not repeat her “same-sex-marriage-is-a-human-right” mantra, she was visibly taken aback.

“Is this a religious thing for you?” she asked, hoping to pigeon hole me into a convenient corner.

I said, “You seem to assume that religion is something we can take out and put away at will, like a broom in a closet. It doesn’t work that way.” I then explained that just as my religion affects everything in life, from homosexual marriage to what I do for fun during the week, so her religion (or lack thereof) affects everything for her, too.

When I probed Sonya’s human rights argument and asked her where those rights came from, she just stared at me, unable to respond. She was speechless, apparently never having considered the question.

She recovered her voice when I asked her to define the rights. She said (somewhat judgmentally), “Everyone has the right not to be judged.” But when she conceded that she judges pedophiles, she stumbled again, and grew indignant. Our conversation ended abruptly only moments later, and I am sad to say our previous good relations were never the same again.

I don’t mean to single Sonya out. I suspect her views are representative of most Swedes, and indeed of many Americans as well.

But there is a lesson to be learned: for all of us who hold strong opinions on these issues, it behooves us to think through the presuppositions we hold before charging into heated discussions about them. Sadly, many of us who defend traditional marriage have not critically considered what we have presupposed.


The truth about Sweden

Before we parted, Sonya gave me a Swedish newspaper. It was half in Swedish and half in English., and I eagerly read it. If you are like me, you have always heard what a laid back, peaceful, utopia Sweden is, with low crime and little stress. It is the poster child of the left, held up as a model of what a live-and-let-live, anything-goes society ought to be. Such is the Swedish media massage.

So I was genuinely surprised to read the truth about Sweden. One article in particular was aimed at readers just like me, who had bought the chamber of commerce line about life in Sweden. The author was Swedish, and his title said much about his reasons for writing: “Quiet No More.” He had turned myth-buster.

Here are some of the startling facts he shared:

• There is more crime in Sweden than in New York City, though they are comparable in population.

• Drug abuse is rampant, with the number of deaths from overdoses having doubled in the past 10 years.

• Sweden has one of the highest incidences of rape in the world.

• Burglaries are so numerous that many citizens have stopped reporting them, because the police are overloaded and cannot undertake to investigate them all anyway.

• Attacks on money transports (like highway robbery) are so frequent that the transporters are threatening to quit, thereby effectively closing ATM’s all over the country.

• Violent outdoor muggings are becoming routine, having increased 15% last year alone.

• In Stockholm, the police recently admitted having lied when they claimed to have neutralized some 130 of the city’s most prominent gangsters; in reality, their sting operation was a bust.

• Swedish courts are plagued with perjurious police officers who routinely lie to support fellow cops in trouble.

I found this data remarkable. While I do not want to place undue reliance on a single newspaper article, it is entirely consistent with a Christian worldview that a nation so firmly committed to the ways of the world would eventually find itself wallowing in crime.

Augustine of Hippo put it this way: “He who sees the truth and flees has weakened the acuteness of his mind through the habit of carnal shadows.” That is, to the extent we turn from truth, away from God, we weaken our ability to discern and become accustomed to carnality, or wickedness.

Of course, it is as true for us in America as for those in Sweden. We have embraced our sin, celebrated our “diversity,” and indulged our depravity. And now, having sown, we must reap. Will we awaken from our stupor? Can we turn from the shadows and once again gaze upon the glory of Truth?

America is only a step behind Sweden and the whole of post-Christian Europe. Absent an abrupt change in our spiritual direction, we are in for dark days ahead. Those who have light, however dim, must lead the way.

[NYer]

Mr. Crampton serves as Chief Counsel of the American Family Association Center for Law & Policy (CLP), a public interest-type law firm. The CLP's web site is www.afa.net/clp. Mr. Crampton's daily radio show, "We Hold These Truths," can be heard on almost 200 radio stations nationwide. He can be reached at clp@afa.net.

[NYer]

Catholic Ping - Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list

[PetroniusMaximus]

Swedish churchs are a sea of grey heads.

Once they die, most of the churches will probably close.

[Charles Henrickson]

Ping to the Swedish Ping List.

[Charlemagne on the Fox]

Swedish churchs are a sea of grey heads.

Actually, the state Church doesn't even have many grey heads.

[prisoner6]

Thanks! This was a GREAT article...can't wait to pass it around!

prisoner6

[little jeremiah]

FYI. Both lists?

[CheyennePress]

Thanks for posting.

I had a very similar discussion with a French girl. In the end, when she had no logical means of escaping a contradiction, simply said that the French give little thought to questions of morality or the origins of rights. It would be silly to do such, apparently.

[Looking4Truth]

When I probed Sonya’s human rights argument and asked her where those rights came from, she just stared at me, unable to respond. She was speechless, apparently never having considered the question.

But when she conceded that she judges pedophiles, she stumbled again, and grew indignant. Our conversation ended abruptly only moments later, and I am sad to say our previous good relations were never the same again.

Hopefully the author's friend opened her mind (funny how liberals claim to be exclusively open-minded) a little bit, but based on the reactions (the same type I get with liberal 'friends' during discussions such as this) of the friend, I seriously doubt it.

[Charles Henrickson]

Ping for a still ostensibly Lutheran--but LINO--country.

[jecIIny]

While Sweden is without doubt far to the left socially and politically of most Americans (myself included) I have to question some of his claims. Without fail the statistics I have read identify Sweden as having one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world. Drug overdoses are high, but not disproportionate compared to most of the rest of Europe. From the crime statistics in his article I have to wonder if the author has not perhaps confused Sweden with Mexico. What are his sources?

[Mogollon]

Swedish churchs are a sea of grey heads.

Actually, the state Church doesn't even have many grey heads.

Makes sense. An apostate europe will usher in the muslim mahdi (anti-christ to Christians).

[The Fop]

I happen to think that there are many people who are born gay. Let's call them "authentically gay". I also happen to think that the line in the Bible that says "a man shall not lie with another man" is addressed to heterosexuals, and G-d is saying "it's okay for THEM to do that, but don't YOU go mimicking their behavior.

There are lots of examples of people who aren't authentically gay finding themselves in situations where they engage in gay sex, such as criminals in prisons, men who were sexually abused by pedophiles during their youth which screwed up their heads, and art school students who think that it's a rite of passage to have a gay fling. All of these examples fall under the heading of sexually deviant behavior along the lines of what took place in Ancient Rome.

I'm against gay marriage not because I want to deny authentically gay people the right to legitimize their relationships. I'm against gay marriage because laws are written in very general terms. So if gay marriage is legalized, the law won't make any reference to being gay or straight. So we'll just have a situation where our government makes no distinction between homosexuality and heterosexuality, in terms of one being considered normal and the other abnormal.

So our government will basically be telling people "don't assume that a hetero marriage is right for you and that a homo marriage is wrong for you, so keep your mind open to going either way". Such a society is inviting people who aren't authentically gay to engage in "sexual experimentation", which is another term for sexually deviant behavior.

[M. Dodge Thomas]

By European standards Sweden has a fairly high level of property crimes and a fairly low level of violent crimes:

http://www.sweetliberty.org/images/crimefigures.gif

[Boazo]

Is it supposed to say massage in the title?

[chilepepper]

about 14 years ago (when i saved up enough money to be able to afford it) i headed off to europe and went through sweden on my way to norway (a much nicer country IMHO). i stopped off in Gotteborg for a night, and late that evening turned on the regular TV channels to see what programs there were.

as you might expect, there was a lot of sex on the channels (NOT cable, these were the regular TV channels!!!).

so, that's what you would expect on sweden you might say? well,*every single one* of the sex programs was gay or lesbian, or sado-masochist, or violent or something. there were *NO* depictions i could tell of normal heterosexual sex.

my lasting impression of sweden is one of degeneracy... i really feel sorry for the swedes.

[hinckley buzzard]

I have to wonder if the author has not perhaps confused Sweden with Mexico.

The source of the statistics, as the author pointed out in the article, was a report by a Swedish journalist. I doubt he confused his homeland with Mexico.

[BinaryBoy]

They might be abandoning christianity but they sure love Islam. Muslim Rape Wave in Sweden

[riri]

Maliginant Narcissism kills.

[Tall_Texan]

Spot on. America is just a step or two behind. Sadly, it is evident even in many of the churches that *ought* to be truth and light.

[AdrianR]

Google reveals a lot of sources saying that property crime in Sweden is higher than in US (and has been higher for last 20 years). I can't find anything on violent crime, though.

[Joe Republc]

Two comments:

- A lot, if not most, of my friends and acquaintence who are in favor of normalizing gay relationships into marriage just go nuts when you try to argue the subject from any kind of logical viewpoint, esp. if you try to interject morality. Apparently, most of them just think they're 'enlightened' enough not to have ours laws support what they consider the purely religious position regarding traditional marriage.

- I've never heard of Sweden having this kind of crime problem, and have always read just the opposite. I'm open to learn something different, but I'd really like to see other sources besides this.

Thanks,
-- Joe

[El Cid]

I happen to think that there are many people who are born gay.

I agree that we are all born 'diseased' in one degree or another. This began when Adam and Eve fell in the Garden and the sting of sin is passed onto all of their descendants (all of mankind). Some have a predilection towards homosexuality, others towards alcoholism, others towards drug abuse, child abuse, adultery, rape, etc... The fact that these tendencies exist do not make them right. They are to be overcome, and they can be overcome through Christ Jesus. We aren't doing anyone good by telling them that their slide into depravity is 'ok' - no matter what their disease. We don't tell the heroin addict that it is 'ok' to shoot up, we don't tell the child molester that his actions are 'ok', and we don't do any favor to the homosexual by telling him that his actions are 'ok'.
Love them - yes; but lie to them - no.

[VOA]

Here's some tidbits from listening to shows to www.krla870.com (KRLA in Los Angeles).
Michael Medved read some stats from document prepared by Swedish economists that
revealed that their socialist state is headed down the road to financial challenges.
IIRC, there was some sort of projection that in the not-distant future, the
average wage/worth in the USA would exceed that of Sweden, plus other factors
were going to go against Sweden.

And Dennis Prager had a (unbelievably) conservative economics professor
who is actually tenured at a Swedish university. He also painted a
fairly gloomy economic picture for Sweden. The fellow had a really thick accent...
because he came to Sweden from South America (Peru?) and he saw that the
Swedes were making a lot of the same mistakes that his home country did 30-40 years ago.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Funny you should write this.....Having lived in Sweden for three years then living there 50% for the last 2 1/2, I know you hit the nail on the head about the TV. One channel is Swedish Nickelodeon from 6 am to 6 pm then Nature takes over until midnight then from midnight to 6 am is Playboy. God forbid my 3 year old gets up a little early.

Not to mention the HARD CORE porrfilmer on Canal Blu, Canal Gul and Canal Plus.

And that is just a few of the channals. The others have their own sex shows as well.

Very interesting TV!!!

[VOA]

I can't confirm/deny the author's claim on Sweden's crime rates.
But I did see in The Los Angeles Times that Sweden (especially Maalmo area?)
is in an economic/crime mess because now that USA has cleared out the Taliban...
cheap, good quality heroin is again flowing from the poppy fields of
Afghanistan to veins in Sweden (yeah, it IS Bush's fault!).
And the crime/rape wave of the Muslim imports are bad enough that we even
get threads (with documentary articles) here from time to time.

I don't know the current stats, but I do remember that maybe 30 years ago,
Sweden did lead the world in what some call "the crime against self" (suicide).
Cradle-to-grave security apparently ain't the best thing for the human psyche.

[M. Dodge Thomas]

Rape is middling high by European standards, and quite high for the developed world:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_vic

OTOH, Swedes feel the safest of any country in Europe walking a street at night:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_per_of_saf_wal_in_dar

perhaps it's the case that violent crime is concentrated geographically or in some other way?

One thing that surprised me looking at those stats: in some respects Sweden may be a rather corrupt society by European standards:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_bri_pay_ind

[Disambiguator]

What are the gun laws like in Sweden? I'm sure that would have some bearing on the crime rate and types of crimes committed.

[kitkat]

BUMP

[my4kidsdad]

for later reading...

[kitkat]

Your post #23 is excellent.

[NYer]

This was a GREAT article

My mother used to work for SAS in their NY offices and, as a young child (many millenia ago), we traveled to Denmark and Sweden. I have retained many beautiful memories from those trips.

In the early 80's, PBS ran a documentary on socialized medicine in Sweden. They explained that medicine had become very specialized and showed the waiting room at one hospital. On the wall were identical boxes each one labeled with a specific body part. In order to be treated, the patient essentially had to pre-diagnose their malady, by body part, pull a slip and wait their turn. The dilemna however was in treating maladies that crossed several areas of the human body.

The same documentary also showcased the socialized work environment where, once hired, an employer could not fire an employee. It didn't matter whether or not you showed up for work after hire; they couldn't fire you. Meanwhile, Swedish youth who had graduated from college were turning to alcohol because they couldn't find work. All the positions were already taken.

Granted, it's been a long time since this documentary aired but I would be curious as to the veracity of these images they projected. Was there any truth to this?

[driftless]

There is much to be said to the "live and let live approach to life" creed. But when all the liberal do-your-own -thing people say that all morality is personal or that there is no such thing as morality, they are lying through their teeth. What they really mean is that they have rejected traditional morality and put in place a hodgepodge of old hippie-style-if-it-feels-good-do-it type of morality. It is the morality of no personal discipline and the idea that what is pleasurable is automatically right.

They use the argument of "how is the action of someone thousands of miles away harming you?" Using that logic, a pedophile in California raping and killing a child thousand miles away from where I live is none of my concern. So then what's next for these a liberal morality types? Public bestiality ?

[driftless]

"impression of Sweden"

I thought something had really gone bad in Sweden when a few years ago I saw a photo in a foreign newspaper of some Swedish parents presenting their teenage daughter and her boyfriend flowers in bed after the kids had just slept together for the first time. There was the accompanying story about how great the whole thing was. I just felt sad for the Swedes.

[muir_redwoods]

One of the effects of US military hegemony in the world has been to let our allies lose their edge and slip into an unmanly torpor. They no longer have to fear the enemy so they indulge their whims and fantasies knowing that somewhere the adults are in charge looking after them.

[NYer]

the French give little thought to questions of morality or the origins of rights. It would be silly to do such, apparently.

This wasn't always the case in France. Some of the greatest saints in the Catholic Church emerged from this country.

I used to work for Air France in their North American HQ and traveled frequently to France on business. I got to know the French. Like their european neighbors, the French have slipped into the same religious decay. This was well expressed by (former Cardinal) Ratzinger in his Pro Eligendo homily, delivered to the Cardinals assembled at the Conclave to elect the next pope.

* * * * *

"How many winds of doctrine have we known in recent decades, how many ideological currents, how many ways of thinking. The small boat of the thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves - flung from one extreme to another: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism and so forth. Every day new sects spring up, and what St Paul says about human deception and the trickery that strives to entice people into error (cf. Eph 4: 14) comes true. "

FULL TEXT

* * * * *

In their efforts to educate their children, they have limited the number of births and turned over 'menial jobs' to Muslim immigrants. Throughout Europe, the natives are shrinking in numbers while their Muslim immigrants are reproducing like rabbits. Run the numbers; it's only a matter of time before we see the total demise of western Europe and its culture.

[NYer]

yes

[the anti-liberal]

"Run the numbers; it's only a matter of time before we see the total demise of western Europe and its culture."

Run the numbers; the same will happen here in the US.

[NYer]

I also happen to think that the line in the Bible that says "a man shall not lie with another man" is addressed to heterosexuals, and G-d is saying "it's okay for THEM to do that, but don't YOU go mimicking their behavior.

And what is the scriptural basis for your belief? Can you cite it?

[NYer]

A lot, if not most, of my friends and acquaintence who are in favor of normalizing gay relationships into marriage just go nuts when you try to argue the subject from any kind of logical viewpoint, esp. if you try to interject morality. Apparently, most of them just think they're 'enlightened' enough not to have ours laws support what they consider the purely religious position regarding traditional marriage.

Seems you have just proven the author's arguments that the US is slipping in this direction. Canada has already caved.

[Malesherbes]

Excellent article. The killer question to people like Sonya is always, "Exactly where do these rights come from?"

I'm old enough to have been long exposed over the years to the left-liberal line that Sweden was a model of what we should become. At the same time, I read regularly that Sweden had one of the highest suicide rates in the world. I always wondered how this computed.

[the anti-liberal]

Exactly where do these rights come from?

The other day while conversing with another university student, a young gal, I pointed out to her the fact that if those who want to remove the 'in God we Trust' from our money, remove 'one Nation under God' from our pledge succeeded in removing 'endowed by our Creator' from the Declaration of Independence our rights would no longer be inalienable because they would be given to us by the government - and if our rights are given by the government then the government can take away those rights.

She said she hadn't thought of it that way. Gee, ya think?

[Lysandru]

Excellent article. The killer question to people like Sonya is always, "Exactly where do these rights come from?"

Shoot, I have these sorts of discussions with my secular Conservatives/ Libertarian friends all of the time. They never have a good answer for this question.

[sine_nomine]

A small puddle of grey heads.

Similarly, in Finnland, a church so large that one can hardly see the front altar from the back, boasting 20 pastors, has 200 regular members. The pastors complain about being overworked.

[Bob Mc]

I've discussed politics and "rights" with many German and Bristish visitors. They just repeat CNN and BBC talking points with no real thought process behind it.

And just like in this article, it often draws a blank stare when they are asked to support their claims.

[k omalley]

I'm glad my father immigrated to the USA and my mother's grandparents as well. My Swedish ancestors were all devout Christians. Soon Sweden will be a Muslim country and it well deserves it's fate.

[Lucky Dog]

I happen to think that there are many people who are born gay.

Let's call them "authentically gay".

Let’s not, since there is no documented proof of any such thing.

All of these examples fall under the heading of sexually deviant behavior…

All examples of homosexual behavior are sexually deviant behavior.

Heterosexually oriented adults exist who choose for religious and other reasons to be celibate. From this observation, obviously, adults have the power to choose to be celibate. Therefore, sexual orientation is irrelevant to the choice to engage in sexual activity whether it is heterosexual or homosexual. In other words, regardless of whether or not someone is “BORN homosexual” (a point which I do not grant), their voluntary choices

Homosexual behavior provides no benefits to, nor serves any useful purposes to, society that are not available through other sources at lower societal costs and greater side benefits. Additionally, homosexual behavior is detrimental in a number of ways to society as well as individual practitioners.

1) Utilitarian Assertion: Homosexual behavior serves no useful/productive purpose [to society] and causes significant detriments [both to society and individuals].

2) Resource Inefficient Use/Misapplication Assertion: Homosexual behavior results in significant misuse of societal resources:

a. Increases completely avoidable, deadly disease rates (HIV/AIDS) among its practitioners with attendant increases in premature death rates.
b. Increases other, completely avoidable, potentially less deadly diseases (STD’s) among its practitioners and potentially others (unavoidably).
c. Inordinately diverts resources to the care of completely avoidable diseases (especially in acute stages).
d. Inordinately diverts (in proportion to the percentage of those affected to the overall general population) limited resources into medical research for prevention/cure of these completely avoidable diseases.

3) Societal Degradation Assertion: Homosexual behaviors and open advocacy for their acceptance result in significant detriments to society at large.

a. In ordinate numbers (in proportion to percentage to the total population of perpetrators) of pedophiles are homosexual practitioners.
b. Increasing acceptance of homosexual behavior, in general, will result in increased numbers of homosexual practitioners and resultant increases in cases of pedophilia.
c. Increasing acceptance of homosexual behavior, in general, will result in legalization of homosexual marriage which will degrade the institution of marriage and its benefits to society.
d. Increasing acceptance of homosexual behavior, in general, will result in increased acceptance of child adoption by these practitioners and cause increased societal costs for dealing with children harmed psychologically (and otherwise) by this practice.
e. Increasing acceptance of homosexual behavior, in general, will result in increased acceptance of bigamy, polygamy, incestuous unions, prostitution, bestiality, etc., which will inordinately and adversely affect the family in general and children (future citizens) in particular.
f. Homosexual behavior (by the overwhelming majority of its practitioners) focuses on individual pleasure/self-indulgence to the exclusion of any regard for negative impacts on others (hedonism) and causes a resultant decline in antithetical (to hedonism) virtues beneficial to society such as service to others, self-sacrifice, self-discipline, devotion to duty, etc.
g. Society unnecessarily loses potentially valuable contributions from homosexual practitioners who die prematurely due to avoidable diseases resulting from this behavior.

4) Biological/Psychological Assertion: Homosexual behavior is contrary to the natural function of sex and normal human social behavior

a. Procreation is impossible to exclusively homosexual behavior practitioners.
b. If homosexuality were a genetic anomaly, it would appear in the population at much lower incidence than is observed.
c. Homosexual behaviors observed (Skinner, et al) in non-human animals are neurotic, abnormal singularities and require artificial, forced conditions (e.g., overcrowding) and is not seen in the normal habitat and behavior of these animals.
d. Homosexual behavior is a conscious choice by its practitioners… homosexual “orientation”(if it exists) no more requires an individual to participate in homosexual behavior than heterosexual “orientation” requires an individual to participate in rape, bigamy, prostitution or any other sexual activity.

5) Theological Assertion: No major religion approves of homosexual behavior and most discourage and/or prohibit or condemn it.

a. Homosexual behavior is explicitly condemned multiple times in the Judeo-Christian scriptures (both Old and New Testaments).
b. Homosexual behavior is explicitly condemned in the Islamic foundational documents.
c. Tenants of Buddhism strongly discourage homosexual behavior.
d. Hindu documents discourage homosexual behavior.
e. Homosexual “orientation” is not a problem absent homosexual behavior.

I also happen to think that the line in the Bible that says "a man shall not lie with another man" is addressed to heterosexuals, and G-d is saying "it's okay for THEM to do that, but don't YOU go mimicking their behavior.

You are reading something into the text that is clearly not there. Your opinion is ill informed.

Opponents of biblical inerrancy within must address themselves to an essential question: If Scripture cannot be trusted as the infallible and inerrant Word of God, what then is our source of knowledge, of truth? If the Word of God is relegated to the "culturally relative," how do we know anything from Scripture? How do we know anything?

"Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine" 1 Timothy 1:9-10).

Consider the list of sinners mentioned in 1 Timothy 1:9-10. Notice that homosexuals are grouped together with the following: "the ungodly," "murderers of fathers," "murderers of mothers," "manslayers," "fornicators," "kidnappers," etc. If homosexuality were really a legitimate, alternate life-style in God's sight, then we would not expect homosexuals to be listed together with the worst kind of sinners imaginable.

"Wherefore GOD also GAVE THEM UP to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause GOD GAVE THEM UP unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet" (Romans 1:24-27).

In the above passage, notice the words and phrases which are used to describe the sin of homosexuality:

It is UNCLEAN, filthy, morally foul, morally polluted.

It DISHONORS THE BODY, it is degrading.

It involves VILE AFFECTIONS (dishonorable, degrading and disgraceful passions).

It is AGAINST NATURE, contrary to the original intention of the Creator.

It is UNNATURAL ("leaving the natural use"), contrary to God-ordained sex relations.

It involves BURNING LUST, being sexually inflamed, boiling with unnatural lust.

It is UNSEEMLY, shameful.

It is ERROR.

The Penalty for Homosexuality under the Mosaic Law (Leviticus 20:13).

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13).

The term "mankind" is the Hebrew term for "male." If a man lies with a male as one lies with a female, both of them have committed an abomination. This repeats the teaching of Leviticus 18:22, only now the penalty is given: "they shall surely be put to death." If you were living in the days of Moses, under the law of God, homosexuality was punishable by DEATH. "What about 'Gay Rights'?" The teaching of God was that it was RIGHT to put those who practiced such things to death. The death penalty was demanded. The Hebrew construction "they shall surely be put to death" is very similar to that found in Genesis 2:17-- "...for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou [Adam] shalt surely die." Under the Mosaic law, those caught in the act of homosexuality would surely, most certainly be put to death.

The expression "their blood shall be upon them" is highly significant. A similar phrase is found in Matthew 27:25-- "Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children." What did these words mean? The Jews who demanded Christ's death by crucifixion were saying this: "We take full responsibility for Christ's death. Pilate, His death and His blood will not be upon you, but upon us. We assume full responsibility for this death."

In Leviticus 20:13 God tells us that those men who engaged in a homosexual act were fully responsible for this deed and had to bear the consequences of it, namely, the death penalty. These men were fully responsible for this sin that they committed. Homosexuality is not some inborn, innate tendency over which a man has no control. Rather it is something that a man chooses to do, and God holds him fully responsible for that action. A man can never legitimately say, "I could not help it. I was born this way. I have no control over my sexual conduct. I am not responsible for my actions and I should not be punished for something that I could not help. I cannot change what and who I am." No, this man was fully responsible for his own death ("[his] blood shall be upon [him]") because he chose to commit a crime worthy of death.

[scripter]

I happen to think that there are many people who are born gay.

Why do you think that? What do you think about Queer By Choice?

I also happen to think that the line in the Bible that says "a man shall not lie with another man" is addressed to heterosexuals

Why do you think that? What is your biblical justification?

[jwh_Denver]

Very good post. People might not see the love that is in this doctrine. God cares for the individual first and the homosexual is a vexed human being. They are not "gay" at all. They are overcome with lust (uncontrolled desires) and they begin to be overcome with increasingly insatiable desires for more extremes. There are more consequences to the gay lifestyle than just dieseases if that were not enough. Homosexuality is a spirtual diesease which does cause consequences to society at large, a society that wants no moral authority, God and what He says.

[Antoninus]

Having had similar conversations with Europeans, this all sounds depressingly familiar.