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Bush Extends Greetings To All Celebrating Kwanzaa
US Dept of State ^ | December 19, 2005 | George W. Bush

Posted on 12/28/2005 11:40:33 AM PST by presidio9

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To: presidio9

What a farce!


151 posted on 12/28/2005 8:40:17 PM PST by BnBlFlag (Deo Vindice/Semper Fidelis)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I answered your question quite clearly; yours is a logical fallacy because the people celebrating Kwanzaa are neither Nazis nor Klansmen, so the two do not compare.

The compare quite well. You just refuse to see it.

While the President is president of all Americans, Americans in general will not tolerate a holiday celebrated by people who advocate racial hatred and violence...Kawanza advocates neither, in spite of the actions of its "inventor", the celebration (not a holiday) is simply a celebration of heritage. So your objection to a Presidential remark to the celebrants of Kwanzaa is purely racially based, and motivated by some sort of basic problem within yourself.

First, the "heritage" celebrated by Kwanzaa is purely an invention. Second, it is, in fact, a holiday based upon racial hatred and violence. See my other post in this thread to Clara Lou which explains things that you may not be aware of. Finally, don't call me a racist. You've pulled that some crap in threads about border security and now you're pulling it here. The problem is within you wherein you're looking for a racist under every bed and in every closet and you seem to believe that everything boils down to race. The only racism going on here is that exercised by the inventor of Kwanzaa and those who observe it. What else is "black nationalism" except for raw racism? Please, get a clue and stop making such an ass of yourself.

These celebrants take nothing from you, they seek to take nothing from you, they force nothing on you, nor do they seek to force anything on you.

Neither would the KKK celebrants of the equally fictitious Klanzaa holiday but no one would let any President get away with recognizing that sort of holiday. Yet, there is no difference between the two. The KKK are white racist nationalists and the Kwanzaaites are black racist nationalists.

You have a problem.

No, you do. It is either willful ignorance or unreasonable denial. Go educate yourself on the subject and come back when you actually can demonstrate that you know something.

152 posted on 12/28/2005 9:21:28 PM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Semper Paratus
"Next year will the President display the National Festivus Pole?"

Hey, we can have the celebration right on the Elipse.

Here is one vote for Madeline Albright in the feats of strength segment of the celebration of Festivus next year.

I love that guy.

153 posted on 12/28/2005 9:22:11 PM PST by ottersnot ( You can't spell Liberal without L, I, E.)
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To: presidio9
Africa is imporverished culturally and economically because of geography, not because of any inherent superiority of those who settled America.

I never mentioned inherent superiority of those who settled America. My point was that the predominant cultures in Africa are destructive and have little or no redeeming value. It has nothing to do with racial or ethnic differences, it is all about culture and attitudes. My point was that celebrating "African" (in this case faux African) culture and values is idiotic given that nothing significant of any redeeming value has come from Africa in at least the last millenia. Why celebrate and attempt to preserve failed cultures while living amongst the most successful and free cultures in the history of the planet?

154 posted on 12/28/2005 9:25:49 PM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Spiff

I can think of many cultures that have contributed little in the past thousand years apart from Africa. Should their descendants abandon them too? What has Iceland done since Leif Erickson?


155 posted on 12/28/2005 9:32:46 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9
I can think of many cultures that have contributed little in the past thousand years apart from Africa. Should their descendants abandon them too? What has Iceland done since Leif Erickson?

I'll leave the discussion for the Icelandzaa thread after the President officially recognizes it. However, I don't recall any recent bloody machete massacres ripping through Iceland and killing tens of thousands of people. Man-made famines in Iceland? Nope. And as far as I know, there's not an Icelandzaa holiday designed to foster marxism, racial supremacy, racial seperatism, and the holiday wasn't invented by a sadistic gang leader. But, whenever that thread comes up, we can debate the fine points of cultures from Iceland.

156 posted on 12/28/2005 9:39:14 PM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Spiff
However, I don't recall any recent bloody machete massacres ripping through Iceland and killing tens of thousands of people. Man-made famines in Iceland? Nope.

Actually, you could be talking about Ireland, but that's beside the point. I agree that Kwanzaa is a bogus holiday. What I reject is the generalization about Africa that you continue to make.

157 posted on 12/28/2005 9:50:30 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9
Actually, you could be talking about Ireland, but that's beside the point. I agree that Kwanzaa is a bogus holiday. What I reject is the generalization about Africa that you continue to make.

But beyond bringing up other countries and cultures you've failed to refute my assessment of Africa's cultural contribution to the world for the past millenium. You've failed to find one redeeming value from the African continent that should be celebrated with a "holiday" like Kwanzaa. Africa has been so devoid of redeeming cultural values and heritage that Everett had to invent them and create a pure fiction. Don't you get that point?

158 posted on 12/28/2005 9:54:49 PM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Spiff
Africa has been so devoid of redeeming cultural values and heritage that Everett had to invent them and create a pure fiction. Don't you get that point?

Is it possible that different cultures value different contributions differently. The fact that the west has not embraced African art doesn't make it any less relevant to them. Again, I agree that Kwanzaa is a bogus holiday, but if African Americans choose to reflect on whatever that culture is, why is it so important to you that I don't.

I should point out that, like yourself, I know very little about African Culture. For all I they may have contributed a great many things in the past thousand years. I know that northern Africans were instrumental in preserving classical writings lost during Europe's dark ages. Mankind's historical record is roughly 4000 years out of 2 million. And Western European has been on top for about 400 of those. Just something to keep in mind.

159 posted on 12/28/2005 10:02:07 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9
Is it possible that different cultures value different contributions differently. The fact that the west has not embraced African art doesn't make it any less relevant to them. Again, I agree that Kwanzaa is a bogus holiday, but if African Americans choose to reflect on whatever that culture is, why is it so important to you that I don't.

You're sounding like a liberal. You're sounding like you may have drunk from the multiculturism and diversity kool-aid. While all men are created equal, not all cultures, beliefs, and behaviors are. Some are beneficial and some are destructive. Some keep an otherwise decent continent war stricken and impoverished. Some see the establishment of free and peaceful societies, the invention of extremely beneficial technologies and medicines, and the promotion of an unprecedented quality of life. This cultural relativism you've apparently subscribed to really isn't becoming of a FReeper. I should point out that, like yourself, I know very little about African Culture. For all I they may have contributed a great many things in the past thousand years. I know that northern Africans were instrumental in preserving classical writings lost during Europe's dark ages. Mankind's historical record is roughly 4000 years out of 2 million. And Western European has been on top for about 400 of those. Just something to keep in mind.

160 posted on 12/29/2005 4:31:01 AM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: HHKrepublican_2

I am black (as you may have noticed in my tagline) I have never celebrated Kwanzaa and don't know anyone who does, not one soul..... and I know tons of black people.


161 posted on 12/29/2005 4:35:53 AM PST by brwnsuga (Proud, Black, Conservative!)
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To: Spiff

Good night! I didn't know this, perhaps because my family doesn't celebrate kwanzaa.


162 posted on 12/29/2005 4:37:33 AM PST by brwnsuga (Proud, Black, Conservative!)
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To: brwnsuga
You think that graphic is shocking, check out the information I've posted in Post #130.
163 posted on 12/29/2005 4:45:36 AM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: brwnsuga
Good night! I didn't know this, perhaps because my family doesn't celebrate kwanzaa.

Also check out Post #133.

Nearly everyone who celebrates Kwanzaa - or who ignorantly legitimizes it through pandering presidential proclamations - doesn't know the truth about Kwanzaa, its founder, its origins, and its subversive intent.

164 posted on 12/29/2005 4:50:11 AM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: presidio9

I think that every culture has had a hand in shaping American culture and impacting the world. The most relevant one in the last 200 or so years though, is the American contribution to the world.


165 posted on 12/29/2005 5:25:16 AM PST by brwnsuga (Proud, Black, Conservative!)
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To: presidio9

IIIIIIIIII'm Dreeeeeeeeaming...of a WHiiiiiiiite Kwanzaa...


166 posted on 12/29/2005 9:33:41 AM PST by His Supreme Majesty
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To: Clara Lou
Pardon me if I continue to educate you (and others) a little more on Kwanzaa. This is taken from some research I did no Kwanzaa a couple of years ago. I've posted it on FR several times each Kwanzaa. Some of the links are dead, but most are valid.

These are just notes and there is no summary of much in the way of explanation. Look through it, follow some of the links, and understand more about the truth behind Kwanzaa, its origins, purpose, and intent.

Kwanzaa Religious Connection:

Anti-Christian? Anti-Christmas?

Karenga himself says that Kwanzaa is an "oppositional alternative" to Christianity - which he calls "spookism" and "eurocentric". He claims the Bible is myth and rejects Jesus Christ.

"...Kwanzaa is not an imitation, but an alternative, in fact, and oppositional alternative to the spookism, mysticism and non-earth based practices which plague us as a people . . . "
pg 14, Kwanzaa: Origin, Concepts, Practice. 1977

Karenga defines "spookism" as "belief in spooks who threaten us if we don't worship them and demand we turn over our destiny and daily lives..." p 27. Kawaida Theory

. Of Christianity and Judaism and their beliefs, Karenga says this about such "myths":

"...it is a simplistic and often erroneous answer to existential ignorance fear, powerlessness and alienation. An example is the Hebrew myth of the six-day creation and the tower of Babel, or Christian myths of resurrection, heaven and hell;"
Kawaida Theory, p 23.

"...it often denies and diminishes human worth, capacity, potential and achievement. In Christian and Jewish mythology, humans are born in sin, cursed with mythical ancestors who've sinned and brought the wrath of an angry God on every generation's head. ... If a mythical being has done, does and will do everything, what's our relevance and role in the world?"
Kawaida Theory. p 24.

Spookism, on the other hand, is intense emotional commitment to non-human-centered principles and practices which place humans at the mercy of invisible and omnipotent forces and thus, deny the right and capacity of humans to shape reality and their future according to their own needs and desires."
Kwanzaa: Origin, Concepts, Practice,pp 44-45.

Temple of Kawaida/Seba

Ron Everett (aka. Maulana Karenga) signs himself (as late as 1999) as the Seba Maulana Karenga of the Temple of Kawaida in a document prepared by him and submitted to the CLUE organization (Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice) of which he is a member of the Advisory Committee. This document can be found here.

CLUE, by the way, is a leftist organization which fights against welfare work requirements and for a "living wage." They are also an "Endorsing Member" of the Coalition for World Peace - an anti-war organization who is against the current war against the terrorists behind the September 11th attack. They have been involved with several of the anti-war protests. Two people calling themselves a "Seba" of the Temple of Kawaida are listed as a signatories to a letter supporting a piece of pro-African legislation. The letter starts "We are a group of religious leaders..." and the signatures include Pastors and other religious leaders of a number of Los Angeles area churches. The document can be found here. Look for Seba Chimbuko Tembo, Temple of Kawaida, Los Angeles, California and Seba Tulibu Jadi, Temple of Kawaida, Los Angeles, California.

In his own publication called Harrambee Notes, the official publication of his still-operating US gang, he is listed as the Seba Dr. Maulana Karenga of the Temple of Kawaida (Maat). The article reports of Karenga's reading of Karenga-published Selections From The Husia which is subtitled "Sacred Wisdom of Ancient Egypt."

Again, in the same publication (different issue) a scheduled ceremony is listed as being officiated by Here's the schedule entry:

Sunday September 1 3:00pm AKIKA: A Kawaida African Rite of Passage.
The cultural rite of bringing into community, Taraja Jasiri (Audacious Hope), a woman-child of the House of Mshinda and Ajabisha Nyofu.
Officiant: Seba Dr. Maulana Karenga, Temple of Kawaida (Maat)

In a Publisher's Note in a catalog listing for a book penned by Karenga called Kawaida Theory and published by Karenga-owned publisher called The University of Sankore Press, Karenga is listed as "Seba (moral teacher) in the ancient Egyptian Maatian (Kawaida) tradition". Seba is supposedly an ancient African word for "Wisdom". The Official Kwanzaa Website which Karenga owns and operates, makes reference to "the ancient Egyptian Seba Ptahhotep in a 1997 Founder's Annual Kwanzaa Message penned by Karenga.

I'm still exploring the religious aspects of this word, but the evidence here shows that Seba is an honorific given to a religious leader who supposedly possesses wisdom.

What is Maat?

According to Karenga, Maat is the foundation for Kawaida which is the basis for Kwanzaa. So Maat -> Kawaida -> Kwanzaa.

Karenga defines Maat as:

"the fundamental principle of the divine, natural and social order established by Ra (God) at the time of creation Karenga,The Book of Coming Forth By Day, Los Angeles: University of Sankore Press l990, p.23"
Maat is an integral part of the Eqyptian Religion as seen here. To quote:

Maat

Maat was the first idea that was separated from
the primeval nonexistence when the world was created. By the idea
of Maat the basic laws for creation and structuring of the universe
was formed.



        "Maat is eternal
      and has not changed since
  the time when she came into being" 

                                            (Ptahotep)

The concept of Maat is the focal point in the philosophy of the
ancient Egyptians. It pervades thinking on all levels of existence:
the cosmological level, the ideology of kingship, the social level
and the individual level. It is too vast a topic to be more than
touched upon briefly here but the concept of Maat is intimately
connected to the oldest of the creation myths; Atum at Heliopolis. 


When Atum had given life to Shu and Tefnut, by his androgynous
powers, the Coffin Texts state him saying: 

         "Tefnut is my living daughter
 and she shall be together with her brother Shu;
              his name is Life and
                her name is Maat."



Without Life and Maat there is no possibility of creation;
movement, dynamics and differentiation must be guided by an
ordering, structuring, regulating principle. Thus Maat is an
integrated part of the Creator god himself.

Pharaoh
The foremost of all priests was Pharaoh. As the son of the god he
was expected to perform the cult ritual every day. This entailed
offering and the foremost of all offerings was Maat:



      "O Re, Lord of Maat
       who lives by Maat
       who rejoices in Maat
       who is complete because of Maat
       who persists because of Maat
       who is praised by Maat
       who is powerful through Maat
       who rules through Maat
       who is crowned by Maat
       who ascends in Maat
       who descends in Maat
       who nourishes on Maat
       who is joined with Maat
       O Re, eternal in deed, perfect in plans
       righteous in heart, who establishes Maat
       in everything which he creates...!

Pharaoh lives by Maat and for Maat. By reciting and offering he is
performing his duty; he represents mankind and personifies Egypt.
He was the ruler by the grace of the gods and as such he had the
task of fighting the disintegrating forces and uphold balance
in society.



As Pharaoh could not be present in every temple of Egypt, there
was instead reliefs depicting him performing these rites, and there
was his deputies - the high priests. Their duty was to see to the
same needs for Egypt as Pharaoh did - the maintaining of good order
in society, thus preserving it for future generations. This task is
done on two levels at the same time, the mundane and the cosmic.
The ritual transcends the mundane level and reaches the realm of
the god. Therefore it might be said that the work of priests
and priestesses was at the same time functional and mystical.



Maat is depicted in a scene taken from The Eqyptian Book of the Dead:


A scene from the the Book of the Dead depicts the Judgement of the Dead. Anubis watches the scales; on the right, Thoth records the results; Amemet, next to Anubis, waits to eat sinful hearts. In the scales are shown the deceased's heart on left, and the feather of Maat on the right. Click here for a larger view.

The Egyptian Book of the Dead was called Chapters of Coming Forth By Day" by the ancient Egyptians. Karenga has done his own afrocentric translation of the Book of the Dead and published it under the name Book of Coming Forth by Day which is categorized as a religious book.

Maat is the basis for Kawaida which is the basis for Kwanzaa

From Official Kwanzaa Website we find that Kawaida and Maat are the basis for Kwanzaa :

Values and value orientation are important, as Kawaida philosophy teaches, because values are categories of commitment, priorities and excellence which indicate and enhance human possibilities. Kwanzaa puts forth seven key values, the Nguzo Saba (The Seven Principles) which offer standards of excellence and models of possibilities and which aid in building and reinforcing family, community and culture: Umoja, Kujichagulia, Ujima, Ujamaa, Nia, Kuumba, Imani.

At the same time Kwanzaa reinforces associated values of truth, justice, propriety, harmony, balance, reciprocity and order embodied in the concept of Maat. In a word, it reminds us to hold to our ancient traditions as a people who are spiritually grounded, who respect our ancestors and elders, cherish and challenge our children, care for the vulnerable, relate rightfully to the environment and always seek and embrace the Good.

So, Karenga shows the link between Maat, Kawaida, and Kwanzaa right on the Official Kwanzaa Website. It is there, right now.

Those who believe in Maat believe that the 42 confessions/admonitions of Maat, found in The Egyptian Book of the Dead are the source of the 10 Commandments received by Moses in 'The Moses Story' (see here and here.) They believe that Moses did not receive the Commandments from God, but lifted them from a black Egyptian.


Underlying Kwanzaa Socialism/Marxism/Leftism

Kawaida, another invention of Ron Everett (aka. Maulana Karenga) is the underlying philosphy to Kwanzaa. Karenga describes Kawaida as "a synthesis of nationalism, pan-Africanism, and socialist thought."

The Official Kwanzaa Website - run by Ron Everett (aka. Maulana Karenga) says this about Kawaida and its relationship to Kwanzaa:

THERE IS NO WAY TO UNDERSTAND and appreciate the meaning and message of Kwanzaa without understanding and appreciating its profound and pervasive concern with values. In fact. Kwanzaa's reason for existence, its length of seven days, its core focus and its foundation are all rooted in its concern with values. Kwanzaa inherits this value concern and focus from Kawaida, the African philosophical framework in which it was created. Kawaida philosophy is a communitarian African philosophy which is an ongoing synthesis of the best of African thought and practice in constant exchange with the world.

Here are a few quotes from Karenga demonstrating Kawaida's underlying socialism/marxism:

Kawaida and its Critics by M. Ron Karenga - Journal of Black Studies, December 1977. Section: Kawaida: Toward A Nationalist-Socialist Synthesis:

Regardless of its critics, Kawaida is, above all, a revolutionary project in process, an audacious and terribly ambitious attempt to synthesize and realize the best of nationalist and socialist thought."

"Kawaida recognizes no pope or Vatican for socialism, accepts no group, state or party's claim to a monopoly on Marxism's or socialism's contribution to human knowledge and practice..."

"Kawaida is critical socialism as opposed to a dogmatic socialism..."

"In an attempt to synthesize the best of nationalist and socialist throught, Kawaida poses and attempts to answer the question of the relationship between national liberation and socialist liberation. Kawaida argues that national liberation and socialist liberation are and are not the same thing at the same time."


167 posted on 12/29/2005 9:47:32 AM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: mrmargaritaville

Serenity now. Serenity now.

Concentrate on your feats of strength and you'll get past this insult or at least be able to kick his ass for insulting you.


168 posted on 12/29/2005 12:25:39 PM PST by Badray (In the hands of bureaucrat, a clip board can be as dangerous to liberty as a gun.)
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To: presidio9

BARBRA STREISAND!

Advancements of culture come when freedom and capitalism arrive. Geography and even natural resources are much less important factors.

America isn't great because of geography. It's because we are free.


169 posted on 12/29/2005 12:49:09 PM PST by Badray (In the hands of bureaucrat, a clip board can be as dangerous to liberty as a gun.)
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To: Badray
America isn't great because of geography. It's because we are free.

We are free because of our geography. The same people colonized Africa before they got to America.

170 posted on 12/29/2005 12:50:46 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: Conservative Goddess

Thanks for the ping to a great -- and funny -- thread. Of course, the usual quota of Bushbots were here to defend him, no matter what he does. And this type of thread just wouldn't be the same without some using the race card to try to make their case.

At least Gunzaa is centered on a good and thoroughly wholesome idea.


171 posted on 12/29/2005 12:53:33 PM PST by Badray (In the hands of bureaucrat, a clip board can be as dangerous to liberty as a gun.)
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To: presidio9; Conservative Goddess

Is that what you think differentiates our history from all others, geography?

It is our system of government -- constitutionally limited with the recognition that all rights are inherent in the people and that all powers of government are merely loaned to government with the consent of the governed.

Freedom works everywhere that it is tried. Sadly, it doesn't get the chance that often.


172 posted on 12/29/2005 1:04:58 PM PST by Badray (In the hands of bureaucrat, a clip board can be as dangerous to liberty as a gun.)
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To: Badray

I'm saying without the luck of geography America would not have ever had the chance to experiment with Freedom. It almost didn't anyway.


173 posted on 12/29/2005 1:06:22 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9
What's next?

The President of the United States sending "warm greetings" to Festivus celebrants?

174 posted on 12/29/2005 1:12:49 PM PST by Gritty ("Americans cannot escape the final showdown with Islam" - Barbara Stock)
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To: presidio9

You give too little credit to freedom and it's utility.

When freedom and capitalism are suppressed, societal advances are too.

Look at any free country anywhere in the world. Then look at the totalitarian countries. Are you still willing to say that it's success is primarily or solely geographical?


175 posted on 12/29/2005 2:16:37 PM PST by Badray (In the hands of bureaucrat, a clip board can be as dangerous to liberty as a gun.)
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To: Badray

I'm saying that there were many places with the same sorts of people as America at the time of our revolution. The reason ours happened when it did and succeeded are mostly geographic.


176 posted on 12/29/2005 2:24:00 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9

Let me be sure that I understand you correctly. . .

Are the waters that surround us and separate us from the rest of the world what you are referring to?

That may explain how we remained free from outside domination, or even attack, but it doesn't explain how we didn't succumb to a domestic despot somewhere along the way.


177 posted on 12/29/2005 2:51:37 PM PST by Badray (In the hands of bureaucrat, a clip board can be as dangerous to liberty as a gun.)
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To: presidio9
LOL
178 posted on 12/29/2005 2:55:29 PM PST by Beth528
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To: presidio9
A seven-day observance emphasizing seven principles of African culture.

Fine. For Africans.

179 posted on 12/29/2005 2:56:42 PM PST by veronica (....."send Congressman Murtha a message: that cowards cut and run, Marines never do.")
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To: bmwcyle
What, no greeting for those who celebrate Festivus? It's every bit as legitimate as Kwanzaa.

By the way, have a Tookie-licious holiday. ;)
180 posted on 12/29/2005 2:59:18 PM PST by Uncle Vlad
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To: andyk
Yes! That one needs to be posted and reposted and reposted until everyone knows the truth!

By the way, Happy New Year.
181 posted on 12/29/2005 3:00:10 PM PST by Uncle Vlad
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To: presidio9
LOL.

It's like a menorah on crack-cocaine.

182 posted on 12/29/2005 3:00:34 PM PST by Do not dub me shapka broham
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To: Recovering Hermit

Are these even real words?


183 posted on 12/29/2005 3:01:03 PM PST by Uncle Vlad
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To: Tijeras_Slim

That's a keeper!


184 posted on 12/29/2005 3:01:50 PM PST by Uncle Vlad
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To: Gritty
Festivus is a holiday for the disenchanted masses.

It's about time that President Bush recognized all of us aggrieved citizens.

To the airing of grievances!

:))

185 posted on 12/29/2005 3:03:46 PM PST by Do not dub me shapka broham
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To: Beth528
He dropped the “Everett” name and adopted the Swahili one, which means “master teacher,” shaved his head, and began wearing traditional African clothing.

Ah, yes, Swahili, the language spoken by the slave traders who Captured sold the ancestors of most black Americans into slavery--doesn't anybody learn history anymore? Obviously not.

186 posted on 12/29/2005 3:04:55 PM PST by Uncle Vlad
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To: Uncle Vlad

Happy New Year!


187 posted on 12/29/2005 3:13:49 PM PST by andyk (Fear my strategery of misunderestimation.)
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To: presidio9

I glanced through this thread. I think I'll pass as I've gone around this issues too many times with the same ugly comments being said. I'm convinced some people wake up and thank God they're white.


188 posted on 12/29/2005 5:45:25 PM PST by cyborg
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To: Uncle Vlad
Are these even real words?

I doubt it since it's made up by a sick, brutal, torturing mo-fo.

But he has his followers; just like the sick, brutal, torturing mo-hammed.

Followers of either of these so-called "religions" can and will go straight to hell.

Their religions are based upon torture, blood, death, and murder.

Period.

189 posted on 12/29/2005 6:32:16 PM PST by Recovering Hermit
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To: cyborg

I new here, so maybe you could answer a question for me: In the upcoming year should I continue posting things that get the most people talking, regardless of how that portrays FR to lurkers, or should I start posting State Legislature Agendas to "Breaking News" like we have some sort of nobel civic mission here?


190 posted on 12/29/2005 8:30:42 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9

no idea but some people just can't resist airing their lack of tact.


191 posted on 12/29/2005 9:00:08 PM PST by cyborg
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To: presidio9
African Americans and people around the world reflect on African heritage during Kwanzaa. The seven days of this celebration emphasize the seven principles of Nguzo Saba -- unity, self-determination, collective work and responsibility, cooperative economics, purpose, creativity, and faith. These values contribute to a culture of citizenship and compassion, and Kwanzaa activities help pass on African values and traditions to future generations.

Mr.President do some research. Kwanzaa is NOT recognized nor celebrated in Africa

192 posted on 12/30/2005 7:39:06 AM PST by youngtory (Kick the Red Tories out of the Conservative Party!)
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To: Spiff
"...it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." -- Thomas Jefferson

You are right, Nazis and Klansmen compare quite well to people whose worst crime is celebrating a made up holiday.

Not that anyone in this forum ever celebrates made up Holidays such as Mother's Day or Father's Day.

Will you be whining about President Bush wishing us a Happy Mother's or Father;s Day later this year?

"...is, in fact, a holiday based upon racial hatred and violence"i

Passover is a holiday based on the killing of all the first-born children of Egypt by God.

Purim, is a Holiday surrounded in death and murder.

Until the day that Kwanzaa celebrants, and not the nut jobs that you like holding up as representative of all the people who participate in this celebration, behave in a manner even closely resembling Nazis or Klansmen, Kwanzaa celebrants are simply Americans enjoying the freedom to celebrate whatever it is that they wish to celebrate.

You are a bigot, always have been.

Your broad-brushed generalizations of people based on religious beliefs, ethnicity,or race, and grounded on "examples" drawn from the lowest members of those religions, ethnicities or races, are well-known to all. Your participation in this unbelievably racist thread, your defense of the racist statements made in it via your failure to condemn them, paints a clear picture of who, and what, you are.

May God forgive you.

Matthew 7:1

193 posted on 12/30/2005 12:32:40 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
You are a bigot, always have been.

And you're full of steaming feces and you have always been.

194 posted on 12/30/2005 12:35:49 PM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Re: The tenants of Nazism, Marxism/Communism/Socialism and its relevance to Kwanzaaism:

From a previous post in this thread that you apparently failed to read:

And before anyone invokes Godwin's Law, let me say that the Nazis however egregious their crimes and their evil are responsible for less death and destruction than the so-called "African values" celebrated by Kwanzaa that have existed and do exist today in Africa (see massacres, ethnic cleansing, machete attacks, man-made famines, etc). Further, their murderous efforts fall far short of the widespread death caused by socialism (over 100 million in the past century) which is another tenant of Kwanzaa and its founder. The comparison between the tenants of Naziism and Kwanzaaism is relevant. The point is that President Bush sends out official Kwanzaa greetings with an official Presidential proclamation when he would never for a microsecond consider sending out similar greetings (as worded above) to those who celebrate Hitler's birthday and Nazi beliefs.

You are right, Nazis and Klansmen compare quite well to people whose worst crime is celebrating a made up holiday.

You've completely ignored the truth about the origins, intent, and the founder of Kwanzaa which has been posted at length in this and other threads.

Not that anyone in this forum ever celebrates made up Holidays such as Mother's Day or Father's Day. Will you be whining about President Bush wishing us a Happy Mother's or Father;s Day later this year?

So, holiday's celebrating motherhood and fatherhood are somehow comparable to a holiday invented by a sadistic and violent racist black nationalist gangleader to spread Marxist racial revolution in America? You're messed up.

Passover is a holiday based on the killing of all the first-born children of Egypt by God.

Please keep up such inane and idiotic remarks so that you can be further discredited by the same.

Until the day that Kwanzaa celebrants, and not the nut jobs that you like holding up as representative of all the people who participate in this celebration, behave in a manner even closely resembling Nazis or Klansmen, Kwanzaa celebrants are simply Americans enjoying the freedom to celebrate whatever it is that they wish to celebrate.

Again, you've failed to address the origin, founder, and stated intent of the Kwanzaa. You keep pretending that it is benign with silly costumes and customs. Please address the stated intent and goals of its founder and official keepers of the tradition and cease your willful ignorance.

Your broad-brushed generalizations of people based on religious beliefs, ethnicity,or race, and grounded on "examples" drawn from the lowest members of those religions, ethnicities or races, are well-known to all. Your participation in this unbelievably racist thread, your defense of the racist statements made in it via your failure to condemn them, paints a clear picture of who, and what, you are.

I participate in the Kwanzaa threads precisely because I am against the inherant racism and other detestable aspects of Kwanzaa, its founder, and its intent. To label me a racist because I am condemning racism is truly stupid. And you're calling people and their comments racist has becoming a running joke on Free Republic as it always seems to be your M.O. in the border security threads and now the Kwanzaa threads. It is not my job nor do I have the time to respond to every statement that may be construed as racist in every thread I participate in. I certainly don't agree with any racist comments but I'm not going to waste my time with the racists and will let the admin mods clean up that garbage. I guess because you're participating in the same thread or are a poster on the same forum that contains such racist comments, you too are a racist - if I use your logic. I'm sure that someone, somewhere could construe your comments about Passover and Purim as anti-semetic too. But, unlike you, most people aren't so illogical and don't look at the world through racially based lenses.

195 posted on 12/30/2005 12:59:07 PM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Spiff
"...let me say that the Nazis however egregious their crimes and their evil are responsible for less death and destruction than the so-called "African values" celebrated by Kwanzaa that have existed and do exist today in Africa..."

I see that you have both sides of your mouth going again.

Now, you want to tie the celebration of African heritage with Africe.

Hypocrite.

I read the tenants of Kwanzaa, and I understand, as do all people with any level of intelligence understand, just what a gigantic bigot you are.

You are pounding your "the founder of Kwanzaa" drum still?

You insist on visiting his sins on others?

Bigot.

Now you try to excuse off the fact that YOU accept some made up Holidays, and you don't accept absurd comparisons unless YOU make those absurd comparisons yourself?

Hypocrite.

Who cares who invented the Holiday?

The peopl celebrating it are not celebrating either his birth, or his beliefs.

They are celebrating their own sense of heritage...wh8ich is what truly bothers you.

Bigot.

I participate in the Kwanzaa threads precisely because I am against the inherant racism and other detestable aspects of Kwanzaa, its founder, and its intent."

The typical response of the rabid bigot.

How others celebrate their heritage is none of your concern.

Bigot.

196 posted on 12/30/2005 2:12:50 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
They are celebrating their own sense of heritage...wh8ich is what truly bothers you.

You don't get it. It is NOT their heritage. It is NOT African heritage no matter how it tries to be African heritage. It is a FALSE heritage dressed up in pseudo-African garb and language designed specifically to lull the gullible into accepting racist black nationalist and Marxist ideas. It is PURELY the invention of Ron Everett. It is not African. It is a tool to further Everett's racist goals.

The goals of the founder of Kwanzaa and his intent for Kwanzaa cannot be separated from Kwanzaa. The more people who ignorantly celebrate Kwanzaa and accept its "values" are more people who are accepting the underlying black nationalist Marxism designed into the "holiday" by its founder.

Do you support the establishment of a seperate black nation within the borders of the United States?

Do you support a racially motivated "revolution" within the United States (ie. the shedding of blood mentioned in the black nationalist pledge and represented by the color red in the black nationalist flag and within Kwanzaa)?

Do you support the spread of Marxism within the United States?

If your answer is no to any of these, then you can't accept Kwanzaa.

I'm not trying to ban the holiday or stop people from observing it. I simply want to register my strong objection to President Bush's official recognition of the racist and Marxist "holiday" and to back up my statements with facts about Kwanzaa, its founder, its origin, its intent, and its goals. You want to twist it into some racial thing, as you are so wont to do when you have no other argument, when it is not. Simply, the President should not have officially recognized the holiday and his statements about it were either made in ignorance or were pure political pandering.

197 posted on 12/30/2005 2:29:06 PM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Spiff
"You don't get it. It is NOT their heritage. It is NOT African heritage no matter how it tries to be African heritage."

So, you are the arbiter of how others celebrate; no wonder you admire and defend Nazis.

That's what is wrong with people like you; it isn't sufficient that you have freedom to celebrate whatever you wish to celebrate however you wish, you also have to dictate what and how others celebrate whatever they wish to celebrate.

You judge.

Do I support the establishment of a separate black nation?

What kind of stupidity are you spouting now?

Do you attribute whatever bulls%it extremists groups say to the larger segment of the population?

Of course you do; it's what bigots do.

Let's judge all Christians by the selective words and actions of a segment of Christians, shall we?

" Ultimately we must separate ourselves from the Blacks and other non-whites and keep ourselves separate, no matter what it takes to accomplish this. We must do this not because we hate Blacks, but because we cannot survive if we remain mixed with them. And we cannot survive if we permit the Jews and the traitors among us to remain among us and to repeat their treachery. Eventually we must hunt them down and get rid of them." - William Pierce, National Alliance 1997.

Idiots like you have been blabbing about an imminent racial revolution since my college days in the 1970's...where the hell is it, other than in your twisted heads.

"I'm not trying to ban the holiday or stop people from observing it. I simply want to register my strong objection to President Bush's official recognition of the racist and Marxist "holiday" "

More crap from you; the celebration is neither racist, nor Marxist.

I've been to a small Kwanzaa celebration, hosted by good friends, who are much better Christians than you are, and I've seen these "Marxist" principles.

They break down to basically a need to create a positive sense of self, to maintain a sense of heritage and family, to clean up their own communities by solving existing problems together, to build up the community through work, to beautify the community, to believe in one self, and the positive role models available.

Good Lord man!

What more could we possibly want from black America than a united effort at cleaning up their neighborhoods and their social problems?

Why would anyone, other than an abject bigot, try to throw dirt on such an innocuous, and positive event?

"You want to twist it into some racial thing"

How unbelievably hypocritical if you t say that.

I have now the same statement that I started this thread with...they are American citizens, just like I am, and he is their President just like he is mine.

You however, compared Kwanzaa celebrants to Nazis.

Bigot.

198 posted on 12/30/2005 4:33:43 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Spiff
From your FR homepage:

"The fight for freedom is God's fight. Freedom is an eternal law of God."

But people should not be free to celebrate Kwanzaa, and President Bush should not be free to acknowledge it.

Hypocrite.

By the way, forgive my rudeness, I forgot to wish you a Happy Klanzaa.

199 posted on 12/30/2005 4:37:28 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: presidio9

There's a HUGE Kwanzaa party not too far from where i live...saw it on a local news channel.

Brand new multicolored garb...2 dancers, dancing which seemed to me as a traditional * Elaine Shuffle *. 6 kids walking around waiting for santa to magically appear out of one of the 3 drums that were being thumped on.
Viewers were then invited to attend the festivities...where they promised dance, music and story telling.
I can just imagine the stories now...most of the africans that live where i'm from are from either Sudan, Rwanda, Cote D'Ivoire...

little drummer boy?


200 posted on 12/30/2005 4:41:11 PM PST by kajingawd (" happy with stone underhead, let Heaven and Earth go about their changes")
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