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Bush Extends Greetings To All Celebrating Kwanzaa
US Dept of State ^ | December 19, 2005 | George W. Bush

Posted on 12/28/2005 11:40:33 AM PST by presidio9

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To: presidio9
"...the war against Christmas."

You mean the war against a business owner's right to free speech being led by people who just a decade or so ago where bitching about the over commercialization of Christmas, and now are upset about merchants decommercializing it?

141 posted on 12/28/2005 8:09:41 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Personally, I could care less about what business owners do. I have a problem when the ACLU sticks its nose into the business of school districts and municipalities based on a non-existant separation of church and state.
142 posted on 12/28/2005 8:13:19 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: CondorFlight

Bush just legitimatized it for time immemorial. Sometimes I really think... maybe he is stupid.


143 posted on 12/28/2005 8:13:27 PM PST by streetpreacher (If at the end of the day, 100% of both sides are not angry with me, I've failed.)
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To: Spiff

I thought McCaniac outlawed the celebration of torture last week ?:O)

At least the founder of this crap didn't make his victims wear their panties on their heads ......


144 posted on 12/28/2005 8:13:47 PM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: presidio9

I want a distinct separation of Church and State...don't you?

Do you advocate public school teachers teaching your kids religion?

Eliminating Christmas altogether from schools and the public square is absurd, so I am with you on that.


145 posted on 12/28/2005 8:15:59 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Clara Lou

That's a lame defense of this stupid P.C. move by the President.

Reagan? In your dreams. He struggled with signing the King Observance into law.


146 posted on 12/28/2005 8:20:49 PM PST by streetpreacher (If at the end of the day, 100% of both sides are not angry with me, I've failed.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I want a distinct separation of Church and State...don't you?

Then get busy with that Ammendment campaign. It's not in our Constitution.

I advocate very little "public" anything. I went to Jesuit schools, and so will my kids. That being said, no, I don't think public schools should teach religion. But only for the same reason that I don't trust the goverment to teach my kids anything else.

147 posted on 12/28/2005 8:22:16 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9

You just contradicted yourself.


148 posted on 12/28/2005 8:23:30 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez

How do you figure? My point is not that public schools are not permitted to teach religion. It is that they have already demonstrated their incompetance.


149 posted on 12/28/2005 8:29:09 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9

You believe that public schools should demonstrate a competence in religious teachings?


150 posted on 12/28/2005 8:38:20 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: presidio9

What a farce!


151 posted on 12/28/2005 8:40:17 PM PST by BnBlFlag (Deo Vindice/Semper Fidelis)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I answered your question quite clearly; yours is a logical fallacy because the people celebrating Kwanzaa are neither Nazis nor Klansmen, so the two do not compare.

The compare quite well. You just refuse to see it.

While the President is president of all Americans, Americans in general will not tolerate a holiday celebrated by people who advocate racial hatred and violence...Kawanza advocates neither, in spite of the actions of its "inventor", the celebration (not a holiday) is simply a celebration of heritage. So your objection to a Presidential remark to the celebrants of Kwanzaa is purely racially based, and motivated by some sort of basic problem within yourself.

First, the "heritage" celebrated by Kwanzaa is purely an invention. Second, it is, in fact, a holiday based upon racial hatred and violence. See my other post in this thread to Clara Lou which explains things that you may not be aware of. Finally, don't call me a racist. You've pulled that some crap in threads about border security and now you're pulling it here. The problem is within you wherein you're looking for a racist under every bed and in every closet and you seem to believe that everything boils down to race. The only racism going on here is that exercised by the inventor of Kwanzaa and those who observe it. What else is "black nationalism" except for raw racism? Please, get a clue and stop making such an ass of yourself.

These celebrants take nothing from you, they seek to take nothing from you, they force nothing on you, nor do they seek to force anything on you.

Neither would the KKK celebrants of the equally fictitious Klanzaa holiday but no one would let any President get away with recognizing that sort of holiday. Yet, there is no difference between the two. The KKK are white racist nationalists and the Kwanzaaites are black racist nationalists.

You have a problem.

No, you do. It is either willful ignorance or unreasonable denial. Go educate yourself on the subject and come back when you actually can demonstrate that you know something.

152 posted on 12/28/2005 9:21:28 PM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Semper Paratus
"Next year will the President display the National Festivus Pole?"

Hey, we can have the celebration right on the Elipse.

Here is one vote for Madeline Albright in the feats of strength segment of the celebration of Festivus next year.

I love that guy.

153 posted on 12/28/2005 9:22:11 PM PST by ottersnot ( You can't spell Liberal without L, I, E.)
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To: presidio9
Africa is imporverished culturally and economically because of geography, not because of any inherent superiority of those who settled America.

I never mentioned inherent superiority of those who settled America. My point was that the predominant cultures in Africa are destructive and have little or no redeeming value. It has nothing to do with racial or ethnic differences, it is all about culture and attitudes. My point was that celebrating "African" (in this case faux African) culture and values is idiotic given that nothing significant of any redeeming value has come from Africa in at least the last millenia. Why celebrate and attempt to preserve failed cultures while living amongst the most successful and free cultures in the history of the planet?

154 posted on 12/28/2005 9:25:49 PM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Spiff

I can think of many cultures that have contributed little in the past thousand years apart from Africa. Should their descendants abandon them too? What has Iceland done since Leif Erickson?


155 posted on 12/28/2005 9:32:46 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9
I can think of many cultures that have contributed little in the past thousand years apart from Africa. Should their descendants abandon them too? What has Iceland done since Leif Erickson?

I'll leave the discussion for the Icelandzaa thread after the President officially recognizes it. However, I don't recall any recent bloody machete massacres ripping through Iceland and killing tens of thousands of people. Man-made famines in Iceland? Nope. And as far as I know, there's not an Icelandzaa holiday designed to foster marxism, racial supremacy, racial seperatism, and the holiday wasn't invented by a sadistic gang leader. But, whenever that thread comes up, we can debate the fine points of cultures from Iceland.

156 posted on 12/28/2005 9:39:14 PM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Spiff
However, I don't recall any recent bloody machete massacres ripping through Iceland and killing tens of thousands of people. Man-made famines in Iceland? Nope.

Actually, you could be talking about Ireland, but that's beside the point. I agree that Kwanzaa is a bogus holiday. What I reject is the generalization about Africa that you continue to make.

157 posted on 12/28/2005 9:50:30 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9
Actually, you could be talking about Ireland, but that's beside the point. I agree that Kwanzaa is a bogus holiday. What I reject is the generalization about Africa that you continue to make.

But beyond bringing up other countries and cultures you've failed to refute my assessment of Africa's cultural contribution to the world for the past millenium. You've failed to find one redeeming value from the African continent that should be celebrated with a "holiday" like Kwanzaa. Africa has been so devoid of redeeming cultural values and heritage that Everett had to invent them and create a pure fiction. Don't you get that point?

158 posted on 12/28/2005 9:54:49 PM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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To: Spiff
Africa has been so devoid of redeeming cultural values and heritage that Everett had to invent them and create a pure fiction. Don't you get that point?

Is it possible that different cultures value different contributions differently. The fact that the west has not embraced African art doesn't make it any less relevant to them. Again, I agree that Kwanzaa is a bogus holiday, but if African Americans choose to reflect on whatever that culture is, why is it so important to you that I don't.

I should point out that, like yourself, I know very little about African Culture. For all I they may have contributed a great many things in the past thousand years. I know that northern Africans were instrumental in preserving classical writings lost during Europe's dark ages. Mankind's historical record is roughly 4000 years out of 2 million. And Western European has been on top for about 400 of those. Just something to keep in mind.

159 posted on 12/28/2005 10:02:07 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: presidio9
Is it possible that different cultures value different contributions differently. The fact that the west has not embraced African art doesn't make it any less relevant to them. Again, I agree that Kwanzaa is a bogus holiday, but if African Americans choose to reflect on whatever that culture is, why is it so important to you that I don't.

You're sounding like a liberal. You're sounding like you may have drunk from the multiculturism and diversity kool-aid. While all men are created equal, not all cultures, beliefs, and behaviors are. Some are beneficial and some are destructive. Some keep an otherwise decent continent war stricken and impoverished. Some see the establishment of free and peaceful societies, the invention of extremely beneficial technologies and medicines, and the promotion of an unprecedented quality of life. This cultural relativism you've apparently subscribed to really isn't becoming of a FReeper. I should point out that, like yourself, I know very little about African Culture. For all I they may have contributed a great many things in the past thousand years. I know that northern Africans were instrumental in preserving classical writings lost during Europe's dark ages. Mankind's historical record is roughly 4000 years out of 2 million. And Western European has been on top for about 400 of those. Just something to keep in mind.

160 posted on 12/29/2005 4:31:01 AM PST by Spiff ("They start yelling, 'Murderer!' 'Traitor!' They call me by name." - Gael Murphy, Code Pink leader)
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