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A Fellow Torture Victim Splits With Sen. McCain (interesting turn of events)
The Hill ^ | December 6, 2005 | Jonathan Allen

Posted on 12/06/2005 6:34:54 AM PST by Former Military Chick

Two highly decorated veterans who were held captive together in a Vietnamese prison camp more than three decades ago find themselves nose to nose today over U.S. policy on torture.

In a draft letter circulated to some rank-and-file Republican colleagues but not sent, Rep. Sam Johnson (R-Texas) asks the top House defense appropriators to exclude from a defense-spending conference report the anti-torture provision added to the Senate version of the bill by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.).

The McCain amendment would limit American interrogators to techniques prescribed by the Army Field Manual and prohibit “cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment” of prisoners in U.S. custody, regardless of nationality or physical location.

“This provision could have devastating effects and is entirely unwarranted,” Johnson wrote in an unsigned and undated draft of the letter obtained by The Hill.

The McCain anti-torture language will likely be dropped from the spending bill but included, in some form, in the defense authorization bill, according to Republican aides. Committee staff worked over the weekend to iron out remaining trouble spots in the authorization measure.

Despite 90 votes supporting the McCain amendment in the Senate, the administration has threatened to veto either bill if it contains the amendment’s language. White House officials, most notably Vice President Cheney, have long sought to thwart McCain’s effort.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said in a speech yesterday that the United States neither employs nor condones torture.

“The United States does not transport, and has not transported, detainees from one country to another for the purpose of interrogation using torture,” Rice said.

But a question remains about the definition of “torture.” McCain seeks to answer that question with his amendment.

His provision defines cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment as anything prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth or 14th Amendment to the Constitution.

For now, the White House is negotiating directly with McCain, leaving other lawmakers, including Johnson and Republican congressional leaders, on the periphery.

“Everyone else is sort of a sideline player at this point,” one senior House Republican aide said. “The reality is McCain has the votes.”

It is not clear whether Johnson’s letter was held back because it lacked signatures, could not stop McCain from getting votes or is already supported by GOP leaders, or for another reason. Johnson was not available to comment, and McCain’s office did not return a phone call seeking comment.

Political differences are nothing new for Johnson and McCain, who were held in the same cell in Vietnam. When McCain ran for president in 2000, Johnson backed fellow Texan George W. Bush.

“I happened to be with McCain for the last year and a half in a prison camp over there in Vietnam. I know him pretty well … and I can tell you, he cannot hold a candle to George Bush,” Johnson said at a Bush campaign rally, according to the Knight Ridder News Service.

“John’s a great friend and a great American, but you know what? George Bush is pushing an agenda that will help America in the long run,” he told CNN on the day of that year’s decisive South Carolina primary.

They also found themselves at odds over U.S. efforts to normalize relations with Vietnam, with McCain in favor and Johnson opposed, and they have split on McCain’s signature campaign-finance overhaul efforts.

In the case of the anti-torture amendment, their divergence reflects a deep national divide over the treatment of American-held captives. Much as they differ over the policy, Johnson and McCain employ sharply contrasting tactics on the political battlefield.

While McCain assiduously pursues publicity to achieve his legislative and political goals, Johnson prefers an audience of colleagues. Though it landed in Republican inboxes across Capitol Hill, Johnson’s letter was not distributed to reporters by his office.

McCain said when he introduced the amendment that the need for intelligence in the war on terrorism is obvious.

“What should also be obvious is that the intelligence we collect must be reliable and acquired humanely, under clear standards understood by all our fighting men and women,” he said. “To do differently would not only offend our values as Americans but undermine our war effort because abuse of prisoners harms, not helps, us in the war on terror.”

But Johnson argues that interrogators must have flexibility as they try to pry information from detainees.

“Requiring the Field Manual to detail every type and means for interrogation and making it the sole authority on interrogation techniques would give our enemies advance knowledge, allowing them to train their people to withstand our procedures,” he wrote.

“Having to potentially sift through thousands of pages of proper techniques in order to get interrogation authorization would likely compromise our ability to control the process, potentially preventing us from attaining valuable information that could avert future attacks,” Johnson wrote.

Johnson’s unsent letter was addressed to House Defense Appropriations Subcommittee Chairman Bill Young (Fla.) and the top Democrat on the panel, John Murtha (Pa.). But Murtha is preparing a motion to instruct conferees, who have not yet been named by Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.), to keep the McCain amendment.

In late October, 15 House Republicans wrote to Young asking him to include it in the conference report.

House critics of McCain appear unwilling to challenge the former prisoner of war on torture even with cover from Johnson, whose medals include two Silver Stars, the Distinguished Flying Cross, two Purple Hearts, two Legions of Merit and a Bronze Star.

“I wasn’t really as courageous as Sam Johnson,” McCain, who was awarded many of the same medals, told The Dallas Morning News for a 2003 profile of Johnson. “I mean that. He suffered a lot more than I did.”


TOPICS: Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: mccain; republican; samjohnson; torture; torturebill; veto
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Perhaps something worthy of contacting the Senators office about??
1 posted on 12/06/2005 6:34:55 AM PST by Former Military Chick
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To: Former Military Chick
His provision defines cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment as anything prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth or 14th Amendment to the Constitution.

Brilliant. So we leave it as broad as liberal panty-waste courts can interpret it. I think various courts have found depriving sex offenders of their Playboy subscription is a violation of one or more of these amendments.

2 posted on 12/06/2005 6:38:32 AM PST by VRWCmember
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To: Former Military Chick

I always thought it strange that McCain got together with J Fn Kerry to give the People's Paradise of Vietnam a big wet sloppy kiss. Super Stockholm syndrome for McCain? (typical Kerry treason)


3 posted on 12/06/2005 6:40:47 AM PST by Freedom_Fighter_2001 (When money is no object - it's your money they're talking about)
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To: Former Military Chick
After McCain was turned by the communists, he joined the Republican Party, if he had joined the Democrats he would just be another democrat.
4 posted on 12/06/2005 6:42:26 AM PST by HuntsvilleTxVeteran (Giving power and money to Congress is like giving liquor and car keys to teenage boys. - P.J. O'Rour)
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To: Former Military Chick
There's different types of torture. One type of torture is where millions people of people and their children and families are exposed to radiation, glass in windows that moves with the speed of bullets, and fires hot enough to melt steel. The other type is where a person thinks they're drowning, but they're not... If it's the ticking time bomb, and it's a million being tortured or one being tortured, it's got to be the one.

That said, this should never be done by sergeants on the night shift - or random CIA agents. Top generals need to be present and it's got to be rare beyond words.

5 posted on 12/06/2005 6:49:21 AM PST by GOPJ (Fight Guest Worker Programs - They do not reflect American Values and would produce "slavery lite.")
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To: Former Military Chick
“I wasn’t really as courageous as Sam Johnson,” McCain, who was awarded many of the same medals, told The Dallas Morning News for a 2003 profile of Johnson. “I mean that. He suffered a lot more than I did.”

And why is that, John?

6 posted on 12/06/2005 6:50:55 AM PST by VeniVidiVici (What? Me worry?)
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To: Former Military Chick
anything prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth or 14th Amendment

Nothing like opening up a can of worms. The potential ramifications of this definition (ie; Due Process, Self Incrimination, Equal Protection) are mind boggling and typical of the fuzzy thinking of John McCain.

7 posted on 12/06/2005 7:01:05 AM PST by layman (Card Carrying Infidel)
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To: Former Military Chick
Yeah, he can talk about supposed torture... But did he have to stand naked in front of a girl and wear a dog collar?
8 posted on 12/06/2005 7:12:57 AM PST by TChris ("Unless you act, you're going to lose your world." - Mark Steyn)
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To: Former Military Chick
His provision defines cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment as anything prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth or 14th Amendment to the Constitution.

Maybe McCain can add another provision applying these Amendments to us.

9 posted on 12/06/2005 7:26:06 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Former Military Chick
House critics of McCain appear unwilling to challenge the former prisoner of war on torture even with cover from Johnson

Gutless cowards. This is no different than "Campaign Finance Reform".

As the story points out, McCain suffered a lot less than many of the POWs, including Johnson. Yet he is the one everyone fawns over for his heroism as a POW. Everyone, including himself, has made McCain into an untouchable icon on certain matters. That is not only bad policy, but can lead to disasterous results, as we have seen in campaign finance reform.

10 posted on 12/06/2005 7:29:27 AM PST by Gritty ("The GOP's in trouble not because it's full of crooks but because it's packed with cowards-Tony Snow)
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To: Former Military Chick
 
I personally don't buy into the argument that torture doesn't work. If it didn't, thousands of years of torture wouldn't have happened. I don't believe that humans changed in the last 30 years and became torture proof.

I can believe that highly trained special ops soldiers can be trained to not spill the beans when tortured, but surely 99% of the population of the planet would tell all in fairly short order.

The ex-CIA types running around on news-talk shows saying that torture doesn't work are simply citing a cover story that makes people believe that they don't torture prisoners. It seems clear to me that the most effective way to convince people that you don't use these techniques is to claim they don't work. It's not like we peasants can actually test this theory out.

 


11 posted on 12/06/2005 7:46:30 AM PST by HawaiianGecko (Facts are neither debatable nor open to "I have a right to this opinion" nonsense.)
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To: Former Military Chick
 
A corollary to this article since it mentions both Sam Johnson and Murtha is this: Why do I keep hearing people saying how this highly decorated Marine Murtha believes we should cut and run, therefore, it must be true. Yet, I don't see or hear anyone mentioning that a 'more highly' decorated soldier, Sam Johnson, thinks Murtha's idea is BS.

Does one have to be a lesser decorated military man to be correct?

 


12 posted on 12/06/2005 7:51:03 AM PST by HawaiianGecko (Facts are neither debatable nor open to "I have a right to this opinion" nonsense.)
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To: Former Military Chick

McCain admitted that he folded under the interrogation techniques used by the North Vietnamese.
One of his flight school colleagues said he crashed every plane he ever tried to fly.


13 posted on 12/06/2005 7:51:48 AM PST by Infantry Grunt 1968-69
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To: HuntsvilleTxVeteran

http://www.usvetdsp.com/manchuan.htm


14 posted on 12/06/2005 7:55:26 AM PST by Barney Gumble (A liberal is someone too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel - Robert Frost)
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To: Former Military Chick
I agree with Sam Johnson.

You have to leave everything on the table.

We are dealing with war criminals not uniformed military combatants and as such they are not entitled to the same protections and/or rights.

Semper Fi,
Kelly
15 posted on 12/06/2005 7:55:28 AM PST by kellynla (U.S.M.C. 1st Battalion,5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Div. Viet Nam 69&70 Semper Fi)
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To: Barney Gumble

McCain the collaborator

From the first days of McCain's captivity, he seriously violated the Military Code of Conduct, which outlines the basic responsibilities and obligations of members of the Armed Forces of the United States who have been captured by the enemy.

According to documentation obtained by the U.S. Veteran Dispatch, not only did POW McCain promise to give the communists "military information" in exchange for special hospital care not ordinarily available to U.S. prisoners, but he also made numerous anti-war radio broadcasts.

Article V of the Code of Conduct is very specific in declaring that U.S. military personnel are required to avoid answering questions to the utmost of their ability and to make no oral or written statements disloyal to the United States and its allies or harmful to their cause. Any violation of this code is considered collaborating with the enemy.

The following is McCain's own admission of collaboration in an article he wrote, printed May 14, 1973 in U.S. News and World Report:

"I think it was on the fourth day [after being shot down] that two guards came in, instead of one. One of them pulled back the blanket to show the other guard my injury. I looked at my knee. It was about the size, shape and color of a football. I remembered that when I was a flying instructor a fellow had ejected from his plane and broken his thigh. He had gone into shock, the blood had pooled in his leg, and he died, which came as quite a surprise to us - a man dying of a broken leg. Then I realized that a very similar thing was happening to me.

"When I saw it, I said to the guard, `O.K., get the officer.'"

"An officer came in after a few minutes. It was the man that we came to know very well as "The Bug." He was a psychotic torturer, one of the worst fiends that we had to deal with. I said, `O.K., I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital.'"

The Admiral's son gets "special treatment"

McCain claims it was only a coincidence that, about the same time he was begging to be taken to a hospital, the Vietnamese learned his father was Admiral John S. McCain, Jr., commander of all U.S. forces in Europe and soon-to-be commander of all U.S. forces in the Pacific, including Vietnam.

McCain does concede he survived because the Vietnamese learned who his father was, rushing him to a hospital where his wounds were eagerly treated.

The former POW admitted in the U.S. News and World Report article that the Vietnamese usually left other U.S. prisoners with similar wounds to die, not wishing to waste medication on them. McCain pointed out "there were hardly any amputees among the prisoners who came back because the North Vietnamese just would not give medical treatment to someone who was badly injured. They weren't going to waste their time."

McCain has failed to mention what he has confided to another U.S. prisoner that since the Vietnamese felt they had in their hands such a "special prisoner" and propaganda bonanza, a Soviet surgeon was called in to treat him.

The communists figured that because POW McCain's father was of such high military rank, McCain was of royalty or the governing circle. They bragged that they had captured "the crown prince."

His communist handlers believed McCain, because he came from a "royal-family", would, when finally released, return to the United States to some important U.S. military or government job. Communist Interrogators and psychological warfare experts drooled at the thought.

McCain's handlers were very much aware that he would be under great psychological pressure not to do or say anything that would tarnish the name of his famous military family.

In fact, the communists considered that to be the key to eventually breaking and then "turning" their "special" prisoner, using blackmail if necessary.

According to U.S. government documents, within a week of POW McCain being transferred to the Gai Lam military hospital, the Hanoi press began quoting him giving specific military information.

One report dated Nov. 9, 1967 read, "The question of the correspondent, McCain answered: "My assignment in to the Oriskany, I told myself, was due to serious losses of pilots, which were sustained by this aircraft carrier (due to raids on the North Vietnamese Territory (VNA), and which necessitated replacements. From 10 to 12 pilots were transferred like me from the forest to the Oriskany. Before I was shot down, we had made several sorties. All together, I made about 23 flights over North Vietnam."

In that article, McCain was further quoted describing the number of aircraft in his flight, information about rescue ships, and the order of which his attack was supposed to take place.

Six weeks after McCain was shot down, he was taken from the hospital and delivered to Room No. 11 of "The Plantation" and into the hands of two other POWs, who helped further nurse him along until he was eventually able to walk by himself.

Afterwards, his handlers isolated "special prisoner", McCain from other American prisoners and made him the target of intense psychological programs.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd59.htm

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd60.htm


16 posted on 12/06/2005 8:03:46 AM PST by HuntsvilleTxVeteran (Giving power and money to Congress is like giving liquor and car keys to teenage boys. - P.J. O'Rour)
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To: HuntsvilleTxVeteran
But look at the medals he got for being a POW..

Two silver Stars

two legions of merit

two DFCs

three bronze stars

three purple hearts

McCain is a certified hero. Navy says so.

Did I mention his Daddy was an Admiral at the time?

17 posted on 12/06/2005 8:10:18 AM PST by cynicom
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To: Former Military Chick

I've been wondering where Sam Johnson and a couple of other Viet Vets have been during the debate ont eh war/ These guys could show up at a Murtha news event and debate his vision versus the vision of other vets, but the republicans leave them out of the story. WHY???


18 posted on 12/06/2005 8:31:02 AM PST by q_an_a
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To: kellynla
"You have to leave everything on the table."

Everything? How about raping the daughter of a detainee in front of him? Beating his infant child in front of him?

I doubt you'll say these things should be 'on the table' for use by Americans seeking information. There is a line to be drawn. Where the line is drawn is a legitimate debate.

19 posted on 12/06/2005 8:36:50 AM PST by lugsoul
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To: GOPJ

Bravo.


20 posted on 12/06/2005 8:37:10 AM PST by freema (Proud Marine Mom-What fools they are who doubt the ability of liberty to triumph over despotism)
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