Skip to comments.Kosovo Jubilant at KLA Acquittals
Posted on 12/02/2005 3:50:24 PM PST by kronos77
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Propaganda again. Milosevic's taking control of Kosovo had little or nothing to do with the crime in Kosovo. It of course led to violence as described in the link I gave you. But there is no indication that Milosevic's actions led to more crime except to the extent that seperatists engaged in illicit activities while fighting the Serb forces.
Propaganda again. Note the word "only". Serbs took land illegally from Albanians before the war and some of those Serbs were expelled in WWII. But WWII also brought an influx of 100,000 Albanians into Kosovo while Serbia was occupied by Germany. That influx was certainly greater than what was necessary to repopulate the Serb-appropriated lands. And as the link I gave you states: Serbs (meaning all Serbs) were harassed and attacked by the occupying Albanians.
I admit there is propaganda on both sides. But your entire set of postings in this thread and some in other threads are propaganda. Hunden, if you feel you can only contribute the same propaganda on this topic, I suggest you take it to another forum and contribute here only on non-Yugoslavia threads.
That of the Serbs, who sometimes have the gall to say that they were the first inhabitants of Kosovo whereas they are only its third known invaders.
That of the Romanians, who know that their language is related to Albanian, and want to claim as their ancestors the Dacians, a Thracian tribe north of the Danube, notably to bolster their territorial claims on Transylvania.
You didn't mention the Thracian thesis, dear to 19th century balkanologist Gustav Weigand, but it is the only alternative to the claim that the Albanians are indeed the descendants of the Illyrians. Or used to be, since it is now established that the Bessi, the only Thracian tribe which had retained its language in the 6th century, were exposed to Christianity in their own language, whereas it is obvious that the proto-Albanians received it in Latin.
There is much more evidence, notably archaeologic, that the Illyrians were indeed the ancestors of the Albanians, and those who deny it now are acting in bad faith.
Now if you consider first ownership to be irrelevant to the issue of legitimate property, it only proves that you are a bad political philosopher as well as an ignorant in Balkan history. The fact that I am not does not make me a propagandist: it only enables me to refute you without using any documentation. To paraphrase your arrogant formula: take your incompetence elsewhere. What is wrong about knowing what one is talking about?
I admit I am not well versed in ancient Balkan history which is why I provided you with a link. Here it is again: http://lamar.colostate.edu/~grjan/kosovohistory.html There are many other similarly unbiased sources available.
take your incompetence elsewhere
I don't need to be competent to recognize propaganda and I will continue to point it out when you post it. If you choose to debate this topic (which I advise against since you seem to be thoroughly biased), please do so in a more respectful manner rather than labelling people you disagree with as ignorant. Not just me in this thread, but others in other threads. I await your apology.
On the other hand, in your confusion of even-handedness with objectivity, you fall once again for a pure lie of Serb propaganda: no evidence of any mass Albanian migration during the war can be found in any of the documents of the occupying powers. Only a few thousand people did move from Albania into Kosovo: some were officials brought in by the Italians or Germans, and the rest were Kosovars who had emigrated to Albania as a result of Belgrade's policy of ethnic cleansing during the inter-war years.
The Albanians from Albania had no reason to move into Kosovo, a disputed and already overcrowded area, before they came under the tyranny of Enver Hoxha (and after that, they couldn't. Like half of the Serb's lies, this one can be exposed by a mere few seconds' reflection upon its plausibility.
Of course, I have alternative information.
The judgement I cast on "ethnic cleansing" is therefore dependent on whom I deem to be the legitimate owners of the country.
Since the Kosovars had every right to live in Kosovo, and the Bosniaks in Bosnia, their forced expulsion was certainly criminal, and the attendant murders and plunder would have been in any case.
Any why would there be? I assume the 100,000 figure came from Serbian sources who documented 70,000 refugees from Kosovo (and estimated 30,000 more went elsewhere or didn't register). Then they assumed that the 100,000 were replaced with Albanians unless there are other sources of documentation. But to simply point to lack of records in Germany and Italy is ridiculous. Did they document all the Jews and others that they killed?
The Albanians from Albania had no reason to move into Kosovo
They made it part of Greater Albania which could only be realized by military force and changing the majority from Serbian to Albanian which is what happened during WWII.
Therefore you wouldn't have a problem with the legitimate owners of the American Southwest, descendants of hispanics and indians, performing ethnic cleansing on the white minority there.
But you don't even understand what you are saying. The Serbian occupation of Kosovo was itself a massive and unending series of criminal acts, including theft, arson, beatings, murders, false arrests, poisoning, forced expulsions and rapes. To say that crime did not rise after the forced annexation of Kosovo to Serbia is a denial of reality.
And there was practically no retaliatory violence from the Albanians until 1996:
"And, as far as terrorist acts are concerned, I can quote some data from our Interior Ministry.
"Let's say : In 1991, there were 11 terrorist actions, in 1992 12, in 1993 8, in 1994 6, in 1995 11, but in 1998, after Milosevic had started creating ethnic conflict, there were 1,855 such terrorist actions. It shows that the growth of terrorism in Kosovo a consequence of ethnic cleansing, not its cause.
(Ratomir Tanic interview with Radio Free Europe, 7 March 2001.
Ratomir Tanic led a secret Serbian negotiation team with the Kosovar Albanians until 1997. http://www.danas.org/programi/interview/2001/03/20010307075519.asp)
Besides, the main reason why illicit activities are more developed in Kosovo than they should (in spite of being no more so than in any other European country) is that Milosevic destroyed the local police in 1990 to reassert the alleged "rights" of Serbia over the country.
I argued that the Milosevic's takeover had nothing to do with Albanian crime. Now you are arguing something new, that the Albanians didn't retaliate against Serbian repression. Whether they did or didn't, it doesn't explain your hypothesis that Albanian criminality is Milosevic's fault. In fact, it implies the opposite.
Neither the Germans nor the Italians had any reason to conceal administrative records with no link to any kind of criminal activity. .
There was no "greater Albanian" policy on the part of the Italians, other than the annexation to Albania of southern Kosovo and Western Macedonia, which had already a majority of Albanians.
And even less on the part of the the Germans, who kept northern Kosovo in Serbia, despite its majority Albanian population.
Neither had the means to impose a policy of massive resettlement on the recalcitrant Albanians during a world war, neither had any reason to engage in one and there is no contrary historical evidence whatsoever.
You have been repeating a Serb lie and, like most Serbs, without even knowing it was one. And now you engage in fantasy, with even less plausibility, to rationalize your gullibility.
Whether you accept it or not, 60 percent what the Serbs say about Balkan history is false, and the proportion rises to 90 percent when the issue is Kosovo. That is, three times the level of mendacity of the Albanians or, for that matter, of the Croats. You can't be "even-handed" if you don't take those proportions into account but of course you can only evaluate them after studying the subject seriously.
And 80% of statistics are made up on the spot. Of course I realize that Serbian history is biased, that's why I gave you an unbiased link. No, you said, it is merely "even-handed" because it repeats Serb lies. Obviously you cannot prove that there wasn't substantial Albanian migration into Kosovo during WWII, just as much as I can't prove there was. But what I don't accept is your blind bias against any facts that may benefit the Serbian case. You are a propagandist. Or a true believer in something, I'm not sure what. Here's Wikipedia on Greater Albania:
During World War II, the dream of a Great Albania became a reality with the fall of Yugoslavia in 1941. Great Albania was established under Italian tutelage including most of Kosovo, Metohia and parts of Vardar Macedonia, Western part of Aegean Macedonia, and parts of Greek's Epirus
In post 40 you said: The only Serbs expelled during the Italian occupation of Kosovo were colonists who had been settled there on land stolen from the Albanians by the policy of ethnic cleansing imposed by the Yugoslav government before the war.
I pointed out that post 40 was propaganda, so you watered it down a little. Don't you realize that watered down propaganda is still propaganda? You haven't answered my question. Do you support the ethnic cleansing of white colonists from Southwest America (or all of American for that matter)?
The text you have provided a link to is not partisan but contains a lot of inaccuracies and the bibliography is ridiculous, as it includes no professional historian of the region and not even the best journalists who have analyzed recent developments: it obviously does not come from a Balkan specialist.
Another consequence of such ignorance which you are unwilling to admit is that you are not as able as I am to judge who is biased and who isn't.
You simply won't accept that there is a side which is more criminal and dishonest than the others, while there obviously is, if only for reasons of cultural history and relative military might, so that your attempt to be even-handed results in your systematic acceptance of the lies from one side.
If a layman were to seek evidence of your bias, he would have to look no further than the fact that you have repeatedly accused me of "propaganda", while ignoring the irrelevant abuse and ridiculous inventions of the others but maybe you don't claim to recognize irrelevant abuse like you claim to "recognize propaganda"?
You are a hypocrite.
You still haven't understood what I meant, and i am not going to help you.
I do recognize that there are people biased towards Serbia repeating Serb propaganda. I pointed that out up in the thread (post 43). I didn't point it out to those posters because they have been here much longer than you have and we have argued about Kosovo before. But I was being a bit hypocritical in targetting your propaganda and not theirs. Nonetheless, it doesn't suddenly turn your propaganda into truth. You are a propagandist or a true believer in Greater Albania or something. There is no doubt that you are one of the two. If you really are a true believer, then explain why, maybe your family was kicked around by the Serbs?
Your explanation of why your colonialism logic doesn't apply to whites in America, Jews in Palestine, or any of many similar situations does not hold water. Nobody can be that focussed on one part of one country without being aware of analogous situations.
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