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Kosovo Jubilant at KLA Acquittals
Institute For War And Peace ^ | dec 2nd 2005. | Janet Anderson

Posted on 12/02/2005 3:50:24 PM PST by kronos77

Tribunal Update Tribunal home Kosovo Jubilant at KLA Acquittals

Kosovo’s majority Albanian population welcomes result of Hague tribunal’s first case against former guerrillas.

By Janet Anderson in The Hague (TU No 432, 2-Dec-05) The streets of Pristina erupted with flags, horns and celebratory gunfire on December 1 as news spread that the Hague tribunal had acquitted two of the first three members of the Kosovo Liberation Army, KLA, ever to face trial there for war crimes.

Judges in The Hague sentenced one former foot soldier, Haradin Bala, to 13 years in prison for his role in a KLA prison camp in the village of Lapusnik where Serbs and suspected Albanian collaborators were tortured and murdered in 1998.

But they declared themselves unconvinced that former commanders Fatmir Limaj and Isak Musliu had played any role at the facility. Limaj, who held a senior role in the guerrilla army which helped drive Belgrade security forces out of Kosovo, gained a high profile as a politician in the wake of the conflict.

While the verdict has met with a predictably downbeat response in Serbia, reactions amongst Kosovo’s majority ethnic Albanian population have been jubilant. Many feel that the court ruling, despite confirming that horrific individual crimes were committed, vindicates the KLA as an organisation.

The judgement comes at a particularly welcome time for Albanians in Kosovo, with talks set to begin on the future political status of the region. Most hope that the process will result in independence from Belgrade.

Observers in Pristina described a collective sense of relief as the judgement hearing in the case was broadcast live on television screens in homes and bars across Kosovo.

The resulting celebrations were a far cry from the dire predictions published in local newspapers of what might happen if the three were found guilty. Just two days before the judgement was issued, an estimated 20,000 people filed through the streets of Pristina protesting the innocence of the three men.

When Limaj went to The Hague in 2003, Kosovo’s then prime minister, Bajram Rexhepi, declared that the trial would give the accused “a chance to prove his innocence and the purity of the war that was led by the KLA”.

Some observers now see particular significance in the judges’ decision to dismiss charges of crimes against humanity against the three accused. They did so on the grounds that there was insufficient evidence that the atrocities at the Lapusnik camp were committed as “part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against a civilian population”.

“It’s been understood here as a cleansing of the resistance,” said Petrit Selimi, the managing director of Pristina’s new Daily Express newspaper. The verdict, he explained, has been “seen as recognition that there were [individual] crimes, not a campaign”.

Kosovo parliamentarian Enver Hoxhaj told IWPR that the judgement is “a good message while Kosovo’s final status talks are going on”, explaining that it has given the local population a feeling that they are supported by the international community.

With Kosovo’s president Ibrahim Rugova in bad health and former prime minister Ramus Haradinaj currently awaiting a Hague war crimes trial, there have been concerns that Albanians will lack a strong figurehead for the talks on Kosovo’s future.

Analysts in Kosovo told IWPR that Limaj is viewed by some as having the potential to fill the vacuum. Selimi explained that Limaj is now viewed as a “sympathetic figure” because of the dignity with which he went to The Hague.

Hoxhaj, who is a senior member of Limaj’s Democratic Party of Kosovo, PDK, told IWPR that he thought Limaj would step back into the “crucial” role he played in the party before being indicted. “We missed him,” he added.

The judgement has also served to support the view that Hague tribunal’s first case involving former KLA fighters was in fact only launched as part of an effort to show the court’s impartiality with regard to the various parties involved in the Balkans conflicts of the Nineties.

A series of senior Serbian generals and politicians, including former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic, have been indicted for their role in alleged ethnic cleansing in Kosovo in 1999.

There has also been speculation about what consequences the outcome might have on the joint trial of Haradinaj and two others said to have been his subordinates in the KLA. They are charged with involvement in the abduction and murder of Serbs, Roma and suspected Albanian collaborators.

Edgar Chen, a long-time observer of proceedings at the Hague tribunal for the Coalition for International Justice, told IWPR, however, that it is important to remember that these are two distinct cases. “Haradinaj is charged under a different set of alleged facts,” he said. “Judges will have to consider Haradinaj's case on the evidence that [prosecutors] and his defence presents.”

The judges hearing the case against Limaj, Musliu and Bala in The Hague appeared keen to emphasise that the acquittal of two of the accused did not mean that crimes had not taken place.

They underlined that civilians had been held in horrific conditions at the KLA camp in Lapusnik, with “gross overcrowding” and some chained to the wall; KLA soldiers, often wearing hoods to hide their faces, beat inmates into unconsciousness; detainees, including some who had been shot, were denied medical treatment despite the existence of a clinic in the village where KLA personnel were treated.

Apart from three prisoners who were murdered at the camp itself, Bala was also found to have taken part in the massacre of nine prisoners in nearby mountains.

But the judges said they were not satisfied that Limaj and Musliu held positions in the KLA which would have made them responsible for the camp.

While there was a “strong possibility” that Limaj had been personally present at the facility, they said, there was not enough evidence to convict of personal involvement crimes there. As for Musliu, the judges ruled that there was in fact “little evidence to identify... [him] as having any kind of involvement in the prison camp”.

Meanwhile, reactions in Belgrade to the verdict have been unsurprisingly gloomy. Rasim Ljajic, president of Serbia’s National Council for Cooperation with the Hague tribunal, told the Beta news agency that the result would bolster the positions of those who are hostile to the United Nations court.

Janet Anderson is IWPR’s programme manager in The Hague.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: albania; albanians; balkans; christianity; clintonistas; clintonlegacy; clintonsquagmire; corruption; crime; genocide; humanrights; islam; islamofascists; kla; kosovo; murder; muslims; religion; serbia; terror; wrongplace; wrongside; wrongtime; wrongwar
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To: palmer
Now you don't understand what I meant.

But you don't even understand what you are saying. The Serbian occupation of Kosovo was itself a massive and unending series of criminal acts, including theft, arson, beatings, murders, false arrests, poisoning, forced expulsions and rapes. To say that crime did not rise after the forced annexation of Kosovo to Serbia is a denial of reality.

And there was practically no retaliatory violence from the Albanians until 1996:

"And, as far as terrorist acts are concerned, I can quote some data from our Interior Ministry.

"Let's say : In 1991, there were 11 terrorist actions, in 1992 — 12, in 1993 — 8, in 1994 — 6, in 1995 — 11, but in 1998, after Milosevic had started creating ethnic conflict, there were 1,855 such terrorist actions. It shows that the growth of terrorism in Kosovo a consequence of ethnic cleansing, not its cause.

(Ratomir Tanic interview with Radio Free Europe, 7 March 2001.

Ratomir Tanic led a secret Serbian negotiation team with the Kosovar Albanians until 1997. http://www.danas.org/programi/interview/2001/03/20010307075519.asp

51 posted on 12/04/2005 11:39:00 PM PST by Hunden (Email)
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To: Hunden
The point we were arguing was that the Albanians didn't become criminal until Milosevic "destroyed" their local police. To quote your post 28:

Besides, the main reason why illicit activities are more developed in Kosovo than they should (in spite of being no more so than in any other European country) is that Milosevic destroyed the local police in 1990 to reassert the alleged "rights" of Serbia over the country.

I argued that the Milosevic's takeover had nothing to do with Albanian crime. Now you are arguing something new, that the Albanians didn't retaliate against Serbian repression. Whether they did or didn't, it doesn't explain your hypothesis that Albanian criminality is Milosevic's fault. In fact, it implies the opposite.

52 posted on 12/04/2005 11:47:31 PM PST by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: palmer

Neither the Germans nor the Italians had any reason to conceal administrative records with no link to any kind of criminal activity. .

There was no "greater Albanian" policy on the part of the Italians, other than the annexation to Albania of southern Kosovo and Western Macedonia, which had already a majority of Albanians.

And even less on the part of the the Germans, who kept northern Kosovo in Serbia, despite its majority Albanian population.

Neither had the means to impose a policy of massive resettlement on the recalcitrant Albanians during a world war, neither had any reason to engage in one and there is no contrary historical evidence whatsoever.

You have been repeating a Serb lie and, like most Serbs, without even knowing it was one. And now you engage in fantasy, with even less plausibility, to rationalize your gullibility.

Whether you accept it or not, 60 percent what the Serbs say about Balkan history is false, and the proportion rises to 90 percent when the issue is Kosovo. That is, three times the level of mendacity of the Albanians — or, for that matter, of the Croats. You can't be "even-handed" if you don't take those proportions into account — but of course you can only evaluate them after studying the subject seriously.


53 posted on 12/05/2005 12:12:26 AM PST by Hunden (Email)
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To: Hunden
Whether you accept it or not, 60 percent what the Serbs say about Balkan history is false, and the proportion rises to 90 percent when the issue is Kosovo.

And 80% of statistics are made up on the spot. Of course I realize that Serbian history is biased, that's why I gave you an unbiased link. No, you said, it is merely "even-handed" because it repeats Serb lies. Obviously you cannot prove that there wasn't substantial Albanian migration into Kosovo during WWII, just as much as I can't prove there was. But what I don't accept is your blind bias against any facts that may benefit the Serbian case. You are a propagandist. Or a true believer in something, I'm not sure what. Here's Wikipedia on Greater Albania:

During World War II, the dream of a Great Albania became a reality with the fall of Yugoslavia in 1941. Great Albania was established under Italian tutelage including most of Kosovo, Metohia and parts of Vardar Macedonia, Western part of Aegean Macedonia, and parts of Greek's Epirus

54 posted on 12/05/2005 12:33:13 AM PST by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: Hunden
You are right to say that the Serbs and Montenegrins, expelled from Kosovo were not all colonists, only a majority of them.

In post 40 you said: The only Serbs expelled during the Italian occupation of Kosovo were colonists who had been settled there on land stolen from the Albanians by the policy of ethnic cleansing imposed by the Yugoslav government before the war.

I pointed out that post 40 was propaganda, so you watered it down a little. Don't you realize that watered down propaganda is still propaganda? You haven't answered my question. Do you support the ethnic cleansing of white colonists from Southwest America (or all of American for that matter)?

55 posted on 12/05/2005 12:47:32 AM PST by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: palmer
You just admitted your relative ignorance and now you are taking me to task for noticeing it — while I have provided ample evidence to establish that judgement.

The text you have provided a link to is not partisan but contains a lot of inaccuracies and the bibliography is ridiculous, as it includes no professional historian of the region and not even the best journalists who have analyzed recent developments: it obviously does not come from a Balkan specialist.

Another consequence of such ignorance which you are unwilling to admit is that you are not as able as I am to judge who is biased and who isn't.

You simply won't accept that there is a side which is more criminal and dishonest than the others, while there obviously is, if only for reasons of cultural history and relative military might, so that your attempt to be even-handed results in your systematic acceptance of the lies from one side.

If a layman were to seek evidence of your bias, he would have to look no further than the fact that you have repeatedly accused me of "propaganda", while ignoring the irrelevant abuse and ridiculous inventions of the others — but maybe you don't claim to recognize irrelevant abuse like you claim to "recognize propaganda"?

56 posted on 12/05/2005 12:49:04 AM PST by Hunden (Email)
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To: palmer
I won't claim to be competent on subjects I haven't studied.
57 posted on 12/05/2005 12:50:41 AM PST by Hunden (Email)
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To: Hunden

You are a hypocrite.


58 posted on 12/05/2005 12:51:55 AM PST by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: palmer

You still haven't understood what I meant, and i am not going to help you.


59 posted on 12/05/2005 12:55:36 AM PST by Hunden (Email)
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To: Hunden
If a layman were to seek evidence of your bias, he would have to look no further than the fact that you have repeatedly accused me of "propaganda", while ignoring the irrelevant abuse and ridiculous inventions of the others -- but maybe you don't claim to recognize irrelevant abuse like you claim to "recognize propaganda"?

I do recognize that there are people biased towards Serbia repeating Serb propaganda. I pointed that out up in the thread (post 43). I didn't point it out to those posters because they have been here much longer than you have and we have argued about Kosovo before. But I was being a bit hypocritical in targetting your propaganda and not theirs. Nonetheless, it doesn't suddenly turn your propaganda into truth. You are a propagandist or a true believer in Greater Albania or something. There is no doubt that you are one of the two. If you really are a true believer, then explain why, maybe your family was kicked around by the Serbs?

Your explanation of why your colonialism logic doesn't apply to whites in America, Jews in Palestine, or any of many similar situations does not hold water. Nobody can be that focussed on one part of one country without being aware of analogous situations.

60 posted on 12/05/2005 1:25:41 AM PST by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: palmer
I gave you the result of ten years of experience, not a judgement "on the spot". What you do with is is your responsibility.

I haven't said your "unbiased" historian repeats Serb lies, although it happens to be the case. It is enough for me that he doesn't confuse objectivity with even-handedness; he is simply a victim of the relative dominance of Serb historiography on the matter until 1997, which is why I found him rather professional, given that he is not an expert on the subject.

On the other hand, I did say that YOU are systematically biased and that YOU repeat Serb lies, as a consequence of trying to be even-handed in a context where even-handedness automatically implies repeating lies and, for that matter, ignoring crimes. The difference is that I gave you more information than he had, and you seem to make nothing of it.

Maybe you would have a better understanding of what drives me here if I asked you whether one should be "even-handed" between anti-Nazis and Holocaust deniers, and take at face value the pronouncements of the latter while calling "propagandists" those who denounce them?

(Here is a bunch of people who are even more exercised than I am about the deniers of Serb crimes, since they have set up whole websites to refute them

http://www.glypx.com/balkanwitness/Articles-deniers.htm

http://www.haverford.edu/relg/sells/reports.html.

To be sure, they also report crimes against the Serbs, but there is no way you won't call them "propagandists" since they can't help saying that the Serbs started the wars, initiated the atrocities and committed an overwhelming majority of the crimes.)

And yes, I have also proved that there was no massive Albanian immigration into Kosovo during WWII. This is a case where absence of evidence is evidence of absence, while the thesis has no a priori plausibility.

Now, in addition to not understanding what I said, you don't even read it any more. The quote you make about "Greater Albania" is completely consistent with what I said, even if the use ot the term Metohia is proof of a pro-Serb bias.

(The neutral term is "Western Kosovo" or "The upper Drin/Drim Basin". while the Albanians call it "The Dukagjin Plateau").

61 posted on 12/05/2005 2:02:24 AM PST by Hunden (Email)
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To: Hunden
I glanced through the Serb-hater sites, that's the reason we have these threads so people can argue both sides. I don't find such one-sided sites very useful because it takes a lot of my time to research each of their points, most of which is obvious propaganda: "attempted genocide in Kosovo"

I am not attempting to be even-handed, as I pointed out before I did not criticize the Serb propagandists on this thread. I merely pointed out that you are also a propagandist albeit with 10 years of experience.

Now, in addition to not understanding what I said, you don't even read it any more. The quote you make about "Greater Albania" is completely consistent with what I said, even if the use ot the term Metohia is proof of a pro-Serb bias.

In post 53 you said "annexation to Albania of southern Kosovo", but Wikipedia shows it as most of Kosovo and part of Serbia bordering Kosovo. Either you didn't read what you said or you didn't read the link I sent.

And you still haven't answered my question, do you advocate ethnic cleansing for all people you deem to be colonists, including Jews in Palestine? It's ok to be hypocritical and say Israel is a special case as long as you admit you are being hypocritical.

62 posted on 12/05/2005 2:20:16 AM PST by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: palmer
I admitted to an exaggeration, the rest is absolutely true And I was answering to an accumulation of inaccuracies none of which you even noticed:

The Albanians never lived in eastern Turkey, the Georgians are not Illyrians, the Albanians appeared under that name in Albania and never in Croatia, which was then independent and not under German domination ; there was never a Serbian kingdom of Bosnia, and Macedonia was then a Bulgarian kingdom. The Turks never used the Albanians as colonists, like they used the Serbs in Bosnia, no Albanian immigration took place into Kosovo during the Second World War, there was no German or Italian policy of extermination of Serbian villages, which didn't resist them. Tito only allowed Rankovic to expel hundreds of thousands of Albanians, and then fired him. The EU has no responsibility in Kosovo and wouldn't approve of any violence there, and the churches there are not 1,200 years old.

This is but a sample of the inaccuracies you have let pass, while criticizing me — and for noting the ignorance of such propagandists. Do you understand that I am beginning to suspect some kind of dishonesty in those double standards of yours?

I do not understand what you mean by propaganda. I have been more truthful and knowledgeable than anyone here —including, by far, yourself. If what is wrong is to take sides in a debate, what is a discussion for?

What part of "I won't claim to be competent on subjects I haven't studied." don't you understand?

63 posted on 12/05/2005 2:52:24 AM PST by Hunden (Email)
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To: Hunden


"Kosovo is Albanian as France is French".

France is COUNTRY and belongs to the French people.
Kosovo= Field OF Black Bird, on serbian, and do not have name "Field Of ALbanians" :)))

ALBANIA= country of Albanians
FRANCE= country of French.
KOSOVO= province of Serbia with large Albanian minority.


"Kosovo belongs to Albanians" = Serbian province of Kosovo belongs to the foreighn Muslim invaders.


Personaly, I take greater care for christian burned monuments and Churches on Kosovo than in burned-down Louvre.


64 posted on 12/05/2005 3:10:59 AM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo I Metohija - "Field of Blackbirds And Land of The Monastry" full ofitial name.)
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To: Hunden
What part of "I won't claim to be competent on subjects I haven't studied." don't you understand?

I never claimed competence and have stated so. I have merely analyzed your postings and found them to be propaganda.

I do not understand what you mean by propaganda. I have been more truthful and knowledgeable than anyone here --including, by far, yourself. If what is wrong is to take sides in a debate, what is a discussion for?

You admit errors and inaccuracies time and again. See my post 55. Most of your postings are similarly either propaganda or watered down propaganda (vague words like "most"). If you are trading propaganda with the Serb propagandists, that is not a debate or discussion. If you refute their specific points, then it can be, but often you stoop to ad hominem (calling people ignorant). Don't your admitted exaggerations undermine your claim of truthfulness?

Just because you believe I am ignorant doesn't mean I can't see enough of both sides to notice your propaganda and your denial is curious. Also curious is the way you read into my posts a bunch of things I never talked about like "the Georgians are not Illyrians" which doesn't refute my first post to you which was that the Albanians - Illyrians linkage is in dispute. Because you don't admit to that dispute and take every Albanian claim as gospel to repeat here, you are a propagandist.

65 posted on 12/05/2005 3:34:48 AM PST by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: palmer
So far, you have only proved that I exaggerated in the course of answering to an incredible bunch of lies, some of which were even unknown to me after all these years, the rest of what I said being both true and unknown to you. You couldn't even name an argument favorable to the Serb theses about Kosovo which I wouldn't not be willing to accept if it were true. Of course, since 90 % are false and you don't know which ones aren't…

If you feel entitled to call that "propaganda", I am to call it an empty concept.

Indeed, holding some people to impossible standards while giving a pass to every outrage from their opponents reminds me of a standard socialist trick:

Let's apply ideal standards to the reality of what people can actually do, and we will be able to disqualify them automatically.

66 posted on 12/05/2005 3:57:46 AM PST by Hunden (Email)
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To: Hunden
standard socialist trick

I thought you were only qualified to talk about the Albanians in Kosovo. Anything else is outside of your competence since that is the reason you won't answer my question about ethnically cleansing Jews from Palestine. They are colonists even more than the Serbs who colonized Kosovo hundreds of years ago.

I exaggerated in the course of answering to an incredible bunch of lies

No, your propaganda was about equal to the Serb propaganda I have seen, you profess certainty about events in WWII based on the absence of evidence which you will certainly never look for, you constistently use words like "all" and "only" until called on it, then notch it down to "most". No, your propaganda is just as dogmatic as theirs, no real difference.

67 posted on 12/05/2005 4:09:37 AM PST by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: palmer
So I am a propagandist because after several years I have been able to conclude, based on evidence you didn't see, that the Albanians are indeed the descendants of the Illyrians and that happens to be the Albanian thesis?

I support the Albanian thesis because no alternative makes sense, and you haven't even mentioned any. I have had to provide the Thracian one myself, if only to prove that it cannot be true; and the only objection you could find is that someone else, whom I have identified as a non-specialist and who quotes neither the arguments nor the bibliography on the issue, says that it is still in dispute. But he simply doesn't know enough.

I mentioned the fabrication about the Georgians as an example of the many you have let pass without notice, not as one you were repeating. It is enough that you believe in one of the numerous episodes of "Albanian immigration" Serb propagandists have invented.

I have admitted to one exaggeration, in a context where you let the camel pass and objected to the fly, and none other. You haven't found other errors and inaccuracies on my part, and I have even less admitted any.

68 posted on 12/05/2005 4:36:52 AM PST by Hunden (Email)
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To: palmer
You claim that my "propaganda" was the same as the Serbs' while I have exposed dozens of Serb lies and you haven't been able to prove one on my part. I call that double standard dishonest.

I don't care if you don't believe what I know about the Second world war; I have given you my proofs, you have provided none, and I don't owe you further proof nor further research.

Concerning the Jews in Palestine, i know enough history to give you an answer: the Jews are the first known settlers of the territory who still lay claim to it and it therefore belongs to them.

69 posted on 12/05/2005 4:51:34 AM PST by Hunden (Email)
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To: Hunden
I support the Albanian thesis because no alternative makes sense,

Your thesis is Albanian propaganda, of course it is designed to make sense, just as much as the Serb thesis.

I have admitted to one exaggeration

And ignore the rest. Your post #15, answered in #17 with no response from you.
Your post #26, answered numerous times, particulary post #32, but your response is "of course I have alternative information"
Your post #27, answered in #35 ad hominem which you correctly pointed out (a rare exception)
Your post #28, answered in #29, which you deflected in 37 rather than answer.
Your post #40 almost pure propaganda, you admit part of it was exaggerated and the rest the few undeniable facts in the rest are fairly trivial (churches at most 7 centuries old, etc).

In short, your postings are not part of a debate about the validity of Albanian claims because you aren't answering critical issues such as the connection to the Illyrians. Your "debate" follows the usual pattern: you assert that Albanians descend from Illyria, then dismiss my unbiased link talking about the lack of certainty. It's your certainty that makes debate impossible even though you claim to want it. History by definition is far from certain, we do the best we can with the facts at hand. But that means using all the facts with no preconceived conclusions.

70 posted on 12/05/2005 5:33:50 AM PST by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: Hunden

Oh, Albanians have avry right on kosovo cause, they are linked to Ilirians.

sounds Arian trashtalk to me.

Albania, Albania uber alles!


71 posted on 12/05/2005 5:36:53 AM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo I Metohija - "Field of Blackbirds And Land of The Monastry" full ofitial name.)
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To: palmer

Man, lay off, this discussion is useless. Frenchie will blab his version until he got to go to toilet.

Anyway, inshort, this is map of "Great Albania"

Man, not even Hitler wanted to enlarge Germany 200%

(img)http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AlbanianTerrorism/images/galbania.gif(/img)


72 posted on 12/05/2005 5:41:16 AM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo I Metohija - "Field of Blackbirds And Land of The Monastry" full ofitial name.)
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To: kronos77

Sorry for the link

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AlbanianTerrorism/images/galbania.gif


73 posted on 12/05/2005 5:41:55 AM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo I Metohija - "Field of Blackbirds And Land of The Monastry" full ofitial name.)
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To: Hunden
The Wikipedia article on Illyria is interesting reading. It looks to me like modern Albania was part of ancient Macedonia and part of Illyria. See map: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/macedonia_1849.jpg Once Illyrium the Roman province was broken up in 10AD, there was not much of modern Albania left it in. It doesn't look like a strong connection to me at all.
74 posted on 12/05/2005 5:51:19 AM PST by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: Hunden; jb6
Of course, I have alternative information.

Dictated by Mr. Soros himself, undoubtedly.

75 posted on 12/05/2005 5:55:03 AM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: kronos77

Thanks for the link, I already showed him something like it from Wikipedia in post 54.


76 posted on 12/05/2005 5:55:56 AM PST by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: Hunden; palmer
...while I have exposed dozens of Serb lies...

You've done nothing of the sort! You've only given verbal support to the Muhammedan ethnic cleansing of the Serb Christians in Kosovo and shown yourself to be a fool and a liar.

77 posted on 12/05/2005 5:57:54 AM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: FormerLib

Thanks for taking over....I need a nap.


78 posted on 12/05/2005 6:32:58 AM PST by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: palmer

"do you advocate ethnic cleansing for all people you deem to be colonists, including Jews in Palestine?"

I hate to bring this up because I admire the job you are doing refuting the Muslim apologist who believes in ethnic cleansing of Serbians. But Jews in the land of Israel predated the so-called Palestinians by centuries. So-called Palestinians have little connection to the land of Israel. They are mostly nomadic Arabs who settled there from the Arabian Peninsula after the land was improved by a surge in Jewish immigration and cultivation in the late 1800's and early 1900's.

Please consult Mark Twain's travelogue of 1867 "The Innocents Abroad" which documents how barren and unpopulated Israel was, and the absence of any group known as "Palestinians."


79 posted on 12/05/2005 9:07:52 AM PST by dervish (no excuses)
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To: dervish
I realize that and I only brought it up to raise a point or two. One is that the determine of colonization is difficult and subject to debate which he doesn't allow for Kosovo, it's all black and white. Secondly, he advocates ethnic cleansing when "he decides" that colonization occured as he decided in Kosovo. He proved beyond a doubt that he is biased in what he said and how he phrased it. His main argument, that the Serbs "colonized" Kosovo and therefore deserve to be cleansed is very un-American given the history of WWII.

I support the country of Israel for historical reasons to some extent, but mostly as a sanctuary for Jews. I think the world owed them that after kicking them around for centuries and I'm proud our country and Britain came through for them.

80 posted on 12/05/2005 9:26:23 AM PST by palmer (Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle)
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To: Hunden

"The judgement I cast on "ethnic cleansing" is therefore dependent on whom I deem to be the legitimate owners of the country."

Your "judgment" therefore lacks morality. The judgment I cast on ethnic cleansing is that it is indefensible. Ethnic cleansing is not a legitimate response to enforce property rights. There is law and war, there is terror and there is ethnic cleansing. If you can not tell the difference then you lack moral clarity.

In today's world the condemnation of ehtnic cleansing is contingent on the identity of the victims not the universal application of principles. Muslim victims garner cries of atrocities world round. Christian victims are not sympathetic to the European left with their post colonial self-flagelation. And Muslims who are usually the perpetrators of the killing are definitely not owning up. They are still crying victim even as they wield the stick.


81 posted on 12/05/2005 9:29:48 AM PST by dervish (no excuses)
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To: palmer

agreed. See my answer in post #81.


82 posted on 12/05/2005 9:30:52 AM PST by dervish (no excuses)
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To: Hunden
"The difference is that the Muslims are the invaders in France, while the Serbs are the invaders in Kosovo."

Incorrect.

83 posted on 12/05/2005 10:39:31 AM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: Hunden; FormerLib; Honorary Serb
The only Serbs expelled during the Italian occupation of Kosovo were colonists who had been settled there on land stolen from the Albanians by the policy of ethnic cleansing imposed by the Yugoslav government before the war.

Really? Nice try. Now explain to me how these colonists were on that land from before the 10th centuary. Explain how those SERBIAN churchs are 1200 years old. If you apply that standard, you Franks had best get the hell off the Gallic/Roman lands you stole and go back to Germany.

84 posted on 12/05/2005 10:41:09 AM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: Hunden; getoffmylawn; ma bell; DTA; F-117A; kosta50
"I am an advocate of property rights: the legitimate owners have the right to remain on their property,"

Excellent, then you won't mind returning Krajina and Dalmatia back to it's rightful owners correct?

85 posted on 12/05/2005 10:41:38 AM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: jb6
The surrender monkey is out of his league, he's short on facts and short on logic, a combination that reeks of Dhimmitude and being a butt boy for the Caliphate.
86 posted on 12/05/2005 10:47:04 AM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: montyspython; palmer; dervish; Honorary Serb; jb6

Using the "logic" (you should excuse me for even applying that term to his Dhimmitude propaganda) of the surrender monkey, we'd better start transferring most of the American southwest to the new nation of Aztlan.


87 posted on 12/05/2005 10:57:52 AM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: Hunden; palmer
I won't claim to be competent on subjects I haven't studied.

You might as well go right ahead as you've already shown yourself to be completely incompetent on subjects you claim to have studies.

Of course, reading from Soros' talking point hardly qualifies as "study," dear boy.

88 posted on 12/05/2005 11:01:42 AM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: Hunden
The Serb churches which have been destroyed in Kosovo cannot be more than seven centuries old, since the Serbs first invaded Kosovo during the 13th century.

Outside of the fact that Bulgarians, another Slavic people owned that land before the Serbs, the Albanians were not present in Kosovo until the Turks, since before the Bulgars, it was the Greek Bzyntines who lived there.

A history of Serb-Albanian Relations

Under the Byzantine Empire Kosovo and parts of Albania were populated by agriculturalist Slavs in the plains and valleys while pastoralist Vlachs, Illyrians, Albanian, Dardanians and Thracians held the highlands. There is no evidence that the ancient Illyrians were Albanians. Since the Illyrians, before they were absorbed by the Romans, did not have a written language, Venetians, Dalmatians, Croats, Montenegrins, and Albanians, all can claim ancient but unprovable Illyrian roots.After a period within the Bulgarian Empire, and another period of Byzantine rule, in 1180 Kosovo became part of the Serb state. In 1219 the Kosovar town of Pec became the seat of the Serb Orthodox church, against which the Pope organized crusades. The Battle of Kosovo Polje (which in Serb means Field of Blackbirds) was fought in 1389 and saw the Christian armies, led by the Serb Prince Lazar, the Bosnian King Tvrtko and their Hungarian, Bulgarian, and Albanian allies challenging the invading armies of Emir Murad and his vassals. That battle was a draw--both Prince Lazar and Emir Murad were killed-- but in later battles the Christians were defeated and most of the Balkans were conquered. Originally, Ottoman rule was definitely more rational and tolerant than that of any contemporary European state. Any conquered prince or village chief, if he converted to Islam, would be accepted as an equal of the Ottomans and would see his own wealth and power increase, at the expense of those who remained Christians. Nevertheless, Christians and Jews were tolerated, although converts were favored. With time, the converts became owners of ever greater spreads of land, worked by their Christian serfs, who in Bosnia and Kosovo happened to be mostly Serbs. Sometimes converts or immigrants are embarrassed by their origins, and to prove their dedication to their new faith or country,they are more likely to turn vicious against their infidel uncivil cousins.

Often amongst the cruelest persecutors you find people whose granparents were from the persecuted group. As the formerly Christian Albanians became the rulers of the land, it became very uncomfortable to be a Christian in Albania and in Kosovo. One half of the population of Albania escaped to Italy, while most of the other half converted. Many of the Serbs of Kosovo escaped north, in successive waves,to escape the rule of Albanian converts or the avenging Ottoman armies, which arrived after every failed Serb insurrection. Serbs peasants were replaced by Albanians from the Kosovo highlands or from northern Albania. About the year 1800 things began to get worse still: in more tolerant days, all that Serbs had to do was to accept serfdom under an Albanian bey or pasha or under a Bosnian beg. Now a particularly demanding Albanian pasha might simply kill Serbs unwilling to convert or destroy their village. Some Serbs who chose conversion to Islam remained crypto-Christians and for many years maintained Christian traditions within the home. Persecution of crypto-Christians was initiated, and after a few generations, through intermarriage, all converted Serbs were absorbed into the Albanian population. What often remained was awareness of blood ties and of an ancient shared history,as well as common traditions and bilingualism. There is no record of organized violence between Serbs or Montenegrins and Albanians until 1785, when an Albanian army, under the nominal sovereignty of the Sultan in Istambul, invaded Montenegro.

After 11 years of fighting the Albanians had to withdraw and Montenegroremained an autonomous principality within the Ottoman Empire. In 1875 an agrarian insurrection against the Moslem landlord and tax collector started in Bosnia and turned into a national Serb revolution, which found support and volunteers amongst European liberals, particularly the followers of Mazzini and Garibaldi. At the end of Tolstoy's Ana Kerenina, we see Prince Vronsky on his way to the Balkans as one such volunteer. The Bosnian Serbs proclaimed their union to Serbia,--they were the majority then in Bosnia -- but Austria had other plans for the area. In a secret agreement, concluded in Budapest, Vienna and St. Petersburg divided the Balkans into spheres of influence. The Zar declared war against the Sultan. With the aid of forces from Bulgaria,Montenegro, and Serbia, the Ottoman armies were defeated and a peace treaty was signed, which gave parts of Kosovo to Serbia and Montenegro,while Bulgaria got Macedonia and independence. But Berlin--and Vienna,Rome, London, and Paris-- didn't like that one bit, and told the little Slavs, "Give it back immediately!" Which they did, while Bulgaria had to accept autonomy instead of independence. That was the Congress of Berlin, 1878, whose big winner was Austria-Hungary, which grabbed Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Sanjak. The Ottoman Empire tried reforms and gave equal rights to Serbs. This offended the Albanians, who saw themselves taxed just like Christians, equated to the "rayah", Turkish word that means herd. That is the traditional term of reference for Christians, seen as a herd whose purpose in life is to be fleeced.

Ottoman rule was now very weak and became definitely unable to protect its Serb subjects. During the previous war the Slavic armies had terrorized the Albanians, while Albanian irregulars had terrorized the Serbs in Kosovo. Afterwards,robbery, beatings, rape, and murder of Serbs by Albanians came to be commonplace in Kosovo. Raiding Serb towns became a conventional way of making a living. Raids were made against towns in Serbia proper as well as against Serb towns in Kosovo. In 1901 Albanian bands raided Novi Pazar and Pristina, the raids regularly turning into pogroms. In between pogroms Serbs in Kosovo had to keep a low profile. For example, it wasn't wise for Serbs to paint their houses or in some other way make them look fancier than their Albanian neighbors'. In one Kosovo town it was customary for the town crier to end every announcement with the cry "Woe unto him who is a Chistian."

Vienna's agents stirred up unrest in the expectation that chaos would enable Austria-Hungary to occupy the area as it had done in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Kosovar Albanian notables visited Belgrade as honored guests and were offered gifts and arms to encourage them to protect Kosovo Serbs. In 1903 the Macedonians rose up and the bashibazouks, mostly Albanian irregular forces, were sent to crush the uprising.In 1908 the Young Turk government in Istambul attempted the centralization of the empire and mandated Turkish language instruction, military service, and higher taxes. Kosovo Albanians revolted and the Turkish reaction was severe. 50,000 Albanians and 100,000 Serbs fled Kosovo. Serbia and Montenegro began to support Albanian guerrilla leaders like Isa Boletini and Idriz Seferi, who in exchange protected Kosovo's Serbs. Seferi had some of his followers shot for robbing Serbs and Boletini had Serbs amongst his most trusted men. However,when Bulgaria, Greece, Montenegro, and Serbia went to war against the Ottoman Empire, the Albanians sided with Istambul. " Better the devil you know..." Albanians thus became victims of generalized killing and pillage at the hands of the victorious Balkan armies. Serb forces reached the sea but Vienna and Rome announced that this would not be tolerated. It was Austria' s policy that Serbia should never be allowed to have a port on the Adriatic. Italy's objective was control of both sides of the Adriatic. The Italians landed and fought off Greeks and Serbs. Austria and Italy were then allied in the Triple Alliance, whose third member was Germany. They supported a convention of feudal lords from all over Albania, which proclaimed Albania's independence in Vlora in 1912. The Treaty of London of 1913 recognized an independent Albania, but the settlement of her final borders was postponed. Serbia lost access to the sea but kept most of Kosovo. World War I saw general mayhem between Serbs and Albanians in Kosovo, the Austro-Hungarian invasion of Serbia, one year of Serb resistance, the German and Bulgarian invasion, the loss of Serbia and the epic retreat to the sea of the Serb army through Kosovo and Albania. Serbia lost 1/2 of its men of fighting age (18-55) in battle,famine, typhus, massacre,Austrian gallows and concentration camps. A good German line of the time was "Serbien muss Sterben," meaning,"Serbia must die." The Italians occupied Albania --they had been promised half of Albania in the 1915 Treaty of London--and an Italian general proclaimed once again Albanian independence, "under the friendship and protection of Italy" in June 1917. In 1918 the Serb army came back to Kosovo. The Italians financed Albanian guerrillas against Serbia. The Serbs reacted with massacres. Amnesty was offered in 1921, but the guerrillas surrendered in the fall only to return to the hills in spring, just as had been the practice of outlaws in the Ottoman Empire.

The new ruler of Albania, who later became King Zog, decided to kill the rebel leaders and the Yugoslav amnesty of 1924 put an end to the rebellion. King Zog followed a middle line, now leaning towards Italy, now towards Yugoslavia, but when he went as far as marrying a Hungarian countess instead of an Italian princess, Mussolini decided he had enough of King Zog, organized a Constituent Assembly of Albanian feudal and clan lords and asked them to offer the crown to the King of Italy. Mussolini's explicit order to the new governor was that Albanian irredentist feelings towards Greece and Yugoslavia be encouraged.World War II saw Kosovo divided between Germany, Italy, and Bulgaria. Italy formed Albanian units, which were used in the "pacification" of Greece. Balli Kombetar, the National Union, which has often been said to be the nationalist resistance to the Axis, was allied to the SS Skandenbeg division, an Albanian unit with German officers, which concerned itself with the final solution of both the Jewish and the Christian problem in Albania. In the place of killed or expelled Serbs and Jews came 70,000 settlers from Albania.

The Italian army tried to protect the Serbs, but the greatest help it could really provide was transportation out of Kosovo. Balli Kombetar could be argued to be part of the Albanian resistance if by "resistance" you mean beating up or killing Italians, after Italy switched to the allied side in 1943. Partisan units in Kosovo attracted thousands of Serbs and Montenegrins but a rather small number of Albanians. Although the defeats of the Axis showed that the end was in sight, the killings of Serbs continued, even though Albanian elders questioned the wisdom of such a policy. I944 saw the retreat of the Germans, the Yugoslav partisans' takeover, the suicidal insurrection of Kosovo's Balli Kombetar, and the settling of accounts: during and after very heavy fighting, thousands of Albanians were killed. The end of the war saw a new, young, strong, confident government, still animated by a spirit of idealism, certain of the coming of a bright new (red) dawn, a new society, even a new civilization. Milovan Djlas quotes Tito as saying, in 1945, " Enough of all these death sentences and all this killing! The death sentence no longer has any effect! No one fears death any more." So they stopped most of the killing and did not expel the Albanians, as the Greek government did, without any important person in the world noticing it. Albanian language schools were opened, and higher education was opened to Albanians. Albanian flags, however, were not permitted, and flag raising was cause for arrest. In 1969 the Albanian, Serbo-Croat, and Turkish languages achieved equal status in Kosovo, while the independent University of Pristina was established. In 1974 Kosovo became one of the eight federal units of Yugoslavia. The national nine-member collective leadership consisted of President Tito and one member for each federal unit. This meant that as long as Tito lived --he was president for life--there would be an Albanian vice-president for a year, a Croat next year, then a Slovenian, etc. After Tito died there would be a collective presidency of eight members, one of whom was to be an Albanian. Kosovo now had representation on the federal courts and on the constitutional court --the equivalent of the U.S. Supreme Court.

It had a veto on all Serb legislation affecting it, while Serbia could not veto a law passed in Kosovo, which now had its own government, parliament, police, judiciary, and supreme court. In the field of public service 80% of all jobs were reserved for Albanians and knowledge of Albanian became mandatory and sufficient. Albanian literature and culture flourished, but a university degree in albanology or Islamic studies did not offer opportunities as an engineering degree would. Most of Yugoslavia's development fund went to Kosovo but the high birthrate, three times the Yugoslav average, insured poverty. As youth unemployment increased, the Albanian government of Kosovo tried solving the problem by providing opportunities and funds for higher education, in Albanian, countering a tradition of bilingualism or trilingualism--Albanian, Serb, And Turkish. That decision of the Albanian leadership was quite catastrophic, since it ghettoized Albanians. It is not easy today in Kosovo to find young Albanians who speak Serb, or any foreign language at that. All successful, affluent minorities are bilingual. What was created was a class of dissatisfied intellectuals without prospects of translating their humanities degrees into jobs, while the development of university facilities did not keep pace with the increase in the number of students. Students were unhappy with the food and with conditions in general at the university. The government and the university were totally in the hands of Albanians, but a culprit had to be found. In some places you naturally blame the Jews, in some places you blame the Muslims, in Kosovo you blame the Christians. So on March 26, 1981 the first pogrom since World War II took place in Pristina. Instead of Jews, the targets were Serbs and Montenegrins, who were attacked, their homes and shops looted and set on fire. The army intervened to quell the riots and perhaps one hundred Albanians were killed. This, however,was not a riot like the Watts, Newark, or Detroit riots of the 1960's. In Pristina policemen were killed. Certainly it would have been wiser to use less force to end the riots, certainly there was no need for the type of repression that followed. On the other hand, it cannot be denied that the Yugoslavs had succeeded in breaking with the brutal history of massacre and revenge that had afflicted Kosovo. The Albanians in Kosovo had obtained more rights than any minority in any contested area in the world, and had more economic, religious, political, and educational freedoms and opportunities than Albanians in Albania. But this was not sufficient to break that old custom of beating up Christians when you can get away with it. The autonomous Albanian government allowed Albanians to get away with it. Serbs and Montenegrins found themselves to be targets of job and language discrimination.

As the Albanians obtained control of the police, life became difficult for all minorities. It starts with cursing when you meet your Serb neighbor in the street, then come threats, robbery,cutting of trees, theft and destruction of crops, killing of animals, stonings, and beatings. If that is not enough to convince Serbs to sell their house and leave, there is always the knife. Altering the balance of power between nationalities through intimidation or terror is ethnic cleansing. In 1989, to put a stop to such ethnic cleansing Milosevic withdrew the autonomy and reincorporated Kosovo into Serbia. I would not deny that this was done undiplomatically, and that there was no real effort to give incentives to Albanian leaders willing to cooperate with Serbia. Nevertheless, the action of Milosevic, though heavy-handed, was essentially defensive in nature. The recent armed struggle has caused the ethnic cleansing process to accelerate. Many villages have been totally cleansed of Serbs. Serbs, Montenegrins, as well as Rom or even Albanians unwilling to work with the KLA, are robbed or beaten. Some may be beaten to death.Sometimes their tortured bodies are found, sometimes they just disappear. Human remains were found in the village of Klechka, where a limestone kiln was used as crematorium for 22 people whom the KLA did not like. It's too bad that since the governments of NATO countries decided to take sides in this conflict, the western media have found it inappropriate to involve unpleasantries like Klecka into the general discussion of Kosovo.

89 posted on 12/05/2005 11:09:07 AM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: Hunden; palmer
"And there was practically no retaliatory violence from the Albanians until 1996"

Wrong. The Albanians were terrorizing Serbs out of Kosovo in the 1980's and before. The New York Times wrote about it. An Albanian soldier in the Yugoslav army murdered several sleeping non-Albanians (including Bosniaks, part Bosniaks, Slovenes, etc.) and they did many other subversive actions within the army and without.

One of the reasons crimes were low in the early '90s was because many of the Albanian troublemakers were participating in the wars in Croatia and Bosnia. After the wars, Albanian veterans sought to start up troubles in Kosovo. They supported and do support themselves with a vast network of crime - drugs, people trafficking, robbery, prostitution, and more. They are known throughout Europe as especially violent criminals.

http://www.fair.org/articles/memory-hole.html

The New York Times
November 1, 1987, Sunday, Late City Final Edition
Section 1; Part 1, Page 14, Column 1;

"In Yugoslavia, Rising Ethnic Strife Brings Fears of Worse Civil Conflict"

By DAVID BINDER, Special to the New York Times

BELGRADE, Yugoslavia

Portions of southern Yugoslavia have reached such a state of ethnic friction that Yugoslavs have begun to talk of the horrifying possibility of ''civil war'' in a land that lost one-tenth of its population, or 1.7 million people, in World War II.

The current hostilities pit separatist-minded ethnic Albanians against the various Slavic populations of Yugoslavia and occur at all levels of society, from the highest officials to the humblest peasants.

A young Army conscript of ethnic Albanian origin shot up his barracks, killing four sleeping Slavic bunkmates and wounding six others.

The army says it has uncovered hundreds of subversive ethnic Albanian cells in its ranks. Some arsenals have been raided.

Vicious Insults

Ethnic Albanians in the Government have manipulated public funds and regulations to take over land belonging to Serbs. And politicians have exchanged vicious insults.

Slavic Orthodox churches have been attacked, and flags have been torn down. Wells have been poisoned and crops burned. Slavic boys have been knifed, and some young ethnic Albanians have been told by their elders to rape Serbian girls.

Ethnic Albanians comprise the fastest growing nationality in Yugoslavia and are expected soon to become its third largest, after the Serbs and Croats.

Radicals' Goals

The goal of the radical nationalists among them, one said in an interview, is an ''ethnic Albania that includes western Macedonia, southern Montenegro, part of southern Serbia, Kosovo and Albania itself.'' That includes large chunks of the republics that make up the southern half of Yugoslavia.

Other ethnic Albanian separatists admit to a vision of a greater Albania governed from Pristina in southern Yugoslavia rather than Tirana, the capital of neighboring Albania.

There is no evidence that the hard-line Communist Government in Tirana is giving them material assistance.

The principal battleground is the region called Kosovo, a high plateau ringed by mountains that is somewhat smaller than New Jersey. Ethnic Albanians there make up 85 percent of the population of 1.7 million. The rest are Serbians and Montenegrins.

Worst Strife in Years

As Slavs flee the protracted violence, Kosovo is becoming what ethnic Albanian nationalists have been demanding for years, and especially strongly since the bloody rioting by ethnic Albanians in Pristina in 1981 - an ''ethnically pure'' Albanian region, a ''Republic of Kosovo' ' in all but name.

The violence, a journalist in Kosovo said, is escalating to ''the worst in the last seven years.''

Many Yugoslavs blame the troubles on the ethnic Albanians, but the matter is more complex in a country with as many nationalities and religions as Yugoslavia's and involves economic development, law, politics, families and flags. As recently as 20 years ago, the Slavic majority treated ethnic Albanians as inferiors to be employed as hewers of wood and carriers of heating coal. The ethnic Albanians, who now number 2 million, were officially deemed a minority, not a constituent nationality, as they are today.

Were the ethnic tensions restricted to Kosovo, Yugoslavia's problems with its Albanian nationals might be more manageable. But some Yugoslavs and some ethnic Albanians believe the struggle has spread far beyond Kosovo. Macedonia, a republic to the south with a population of 1.8 million, has a restive ethnic Albanian minority of 350,000.

''We've already lost western Macedonia to the Albanians,'' said a member of the Yugoslav party presidium, explaining that the ethnic minority had driven the Slavic Macedonians out of the region.

Attacks on Slavs

Last summer, the authorities in Kosovo said they documented 40 ethnic Albanian attacks on Slavs in two months. In the last two years, 320 ethnic Albanians have been sentenced for political crimes, nearly half of them characterized as severe.

In one incident, Fadil Hoxha, once the leading politician of ethnic Albanian origin in Yugoslavia, joked at an official dinner in Prizren last year that Serbian women should be used to satisfy potential ethnic Albanian rapists. After his quip was reported this October, Serbian women in Kosovo protested, and Mr. Hoxha was dismissed from the Communist Party.

As a precaution, the central authorities dispatched 380 riot police officers to the Kosovo region for the first time in four years.

Officials in Belgrade view the ethnic Albanian challenge as imperiling the foundations of the multinational experiment called federal Yugoslavia, which consists of six republics and two provinces.

'Lebanonizing' of Yugoslavia

High-ranking officials have spoken of the ''Lebanonizing'' of their country and have compared its troubles to the strife in Northern Ireland.

Borislav Jovic, a member of the Serbian party's presidency, spoke in an interview of the prospect of ''two Albanias, one north and one south, like divided Germany or Korea,'' and of ''practically the breakup of Yugoslavia.'' He added: ''Time is working against us.''

The federal Secretary for National Defense, Fleet Adm. Branko Mamula, told the army's party organization in September of efforts by ethnic Albanians to subvert the armed forces. ''Between 1981 and 1987 a total of 216 illegal organizations with 1,435 members of Albanian nationality were discovered in the Yugoslav People's Army,'' he said. Admiral Mamula said ethnic Albanian subversives had been preparing for ''killing officers and soldiers, poisoning food and water, sabotage, breaking into weapons arsenals and stealing arms and ammunition, desertion and causing flagrant nationalist incidents in army units.''

Concerns Over Military

Coming three weeks after the ethnic Albanian draftee, Aziz Kelmendi, had slaughtered his Slavic comrades in the barracks at Paracin, the speech struck fear in thousands of families whose sons were about to start their mandatory year of military service.

Because the Albanians have had a relatively high birth rate, one-quarter of the army's 200,000 conscripts this year are ethnic Albanians. Admiral Mamula suggested that 3,792 were potential human timebombs.

He said the army had ''not been provided with details relevant for assessing their behavior.'' But a number of Belgrade politicians said they doubted the Yugoslav armed forces would be used to intervene in Kosovo as they were to quell violent rioting in 1981 in Pristina. They reason that the army leadership is extremely reluctant to become involved in what is, in the first place, a political issue.

Ethnic Albanians already control almost every phase of life in the autonomous province of Kosovo, including the police, judiciary, civil service, schools and factories. Non-Albanian visitors almost immediately feel the independence - and suspicion - of the ethnic Albanian authorities.

Region's Slavs Lack Strength

While 200,000 Serbs and Montenegrins still live in the province, they are scattered and lack cohesion. In the last seven years, 20,000 of them have fled the province, often leaving behind farmsteads and houses, for the safety of the Slavic north.

Until September, the majority of the Serbian Communist Party leadership pursued a policy of seeking compromise with the Kosovo party hierarchy under its ethnic Albanian leader, Azem Vlasi.

But during a 30-hour session of the Serbian central committee in late September, the Serbian party secretary, Slobodan Milosevic, deposed Dragisa Pavlovic, as head of Belgrade's party organization, the country's largest. Mr. Milosevic accused Mr. Pavlovic of being an appeaser who was soft on Albanian radicals. Mr. Milosevic had courted the Serbian backlash vote with speeches in Kosovo itself calling for ''the policy of the hard hand.''

''We will go up against anti-Socialist forces, even if they call us Stalinists,'' Mr. Milosevic declared recently. That a Yugoslav politician would invite someone to call him a Stalinist even four decades after Tito's epochal break with Stalin, is a measure of the state into which Serbian politics have fallen. For the moment, Mr. Milosevic and his supporters appear to be staking their careers on a strategy of confrontation with the Kosovo ethnic Albanians.

Other Yugoslav politicians have expressed alarm. ''There is no doubt Kosovo is a problem of the whole country, a powder keg on which we all sit,'' said Milan Kucan, head of the Slovenian Communist Party.

Remzi Koljgeci, of the Kosovo party leadership, said in an interview in Pristina that ''relations are cold'' between the ethnic Albanians and Serbs of the province, that there were too many ''people without hope.''

But many of those interviewed agreed it was also a rare opportunity for Yugoslavia to take radical political and economic steps, as Tito did when he broke with the Soviet bloc in 1948.

Efforts are under way to strengthen central authority through amendments to the constitution. The League of Communists is planning an extraordinary party congress before March to address the country's grave problems.

The hope is that something will be done then to exert the rule of law in Kosovo while drawing ethnic Albanians back into Yugoslavia's mainstream.

Copyright 1987 The New York Times Company "And there was practically no retaliatory violence from the Albanians until 1996"


90 posted on 12/05/2005 11:12:47 AM PST by joan
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To: joan

post this article as a topic for its self. It shows it all and much more.


91 posted on 12/05/2005 11:42:43 AM PST by kronos77 (Kosovo I Metohija - "Field of Blackbirds And Land of The Monastry" full ofitial name.)
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To: kronos77
"post this article as a topic for its self. It shows it all and much more."

Well, you could do it yourself. I had thought it might have been posted here years ago - but couldn't find it, so go ahead if you wish.

I searched a bit and came up with a FR post about Bob Dole which quotes a bit of an even earlier article by The New York Times – July 1982 – similar to the 1987 one. (The article says 57,000 Serbs had left in the last decade which would mean from 1972-1982):

Bob Dole and Yugoslavia; "Concurrent Resolution 150" and Other Puzzle Pieces
The New York Times,
Monday, July 12, 1982

Exodus of Serbians Stirs Province in Yugoslavia

"Serbs .... have... been harassed by Albanians and have packed up and left the region.

"The [Albanian] nationalists have a two-point platform, ...first to establish what they call an ethnically clean Albanian republic and then the merger with Albania to form a greater Albania. "

"Some 57,000 Serbs have left Kosovo in the last decade... The exodus of Serbs is admittedly one of the main problems... in Kosovo..."


92 posted on 12/05/2005 11:57:59 AM PST by joan
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To: joan

Hiya. Nice to see you.


93 posted on 12/05/2005 11:59:27 AM PST by MarMema (http://www.curenikolette.org/)
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To: kronos77
This is the link to the complete 1982 article from The New York Times. So, there is one from 1982 and one from 1987 both telling of Albanian pressure, harassment, attacks and some murders on Serbs causing them to leave.

Exodus of Serbians stirs province in Yugoslavia

94 posted on 12/05/2005 12:09:08 PM PST by joan
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To: jb6
Anybody who has to go back to who lived where 1000 years ago should automatically be deemed the loser of an argument. The funny thing about the Balkans is that at some time or other, somebody from each ethnic group lived just about everywhere. If you take the position that the maximum historical extent of each ethnic group's range should be the border of each country, you're doomed to everlasting war.

Idiotic Balkan mindsets all.

95 posted on 12/05/2005 4:55:51 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows ones nose.-Heine)
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To: Alter Kaker; FormerLib; Cronos; MarMema; Honorary Serb; A. Pole; RusIvan; sergey1973
Anybody who has to go back to who lived where 1000 years ago should automatically be deemed the loser of an argument.

Well, the Jews then have no claim to Israel and the Islamic are the masters of that land, since the Jewish claim is 2,000 years old. Now don't you feel a bit dumb with that statement.....or are you an islamic israeli arab?

96 posted on 12/05/2005 5:08:01 PM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: joan; kronos77

We've got another pro-islamic and this one out of Israel: Alter Kaker


97 posted on 12/05/2005 5:09:13 PM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: jb6
Well, the Jews then have no claim to Israel and the Islamic are the masters of that land, since the Jewish claim is 2,000 years old. Now don't you feel a bit dumb with that statement.....or are you an islamic israeli arab?

Sorry, but I don't base my support for my country on any sort of belief in Eretz Yisrael. The Jews came to Israel because we were chased out of Europe, Russia, and, later, the Arab world.

98 posted on 12/05/2005 5:14:55 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows ones nose.-Heine)
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To: Alter Kaker
Sorry, but I don't base my support for my country on any sort of belief in Eretz Yisrael. The Jews came to Israel because we were chased out of Europe, Russia, and, later, the Arab world.

Wow, so your view is basically supported by might makes right. Because, since that land was occupied, however sparsly and you don't keep any moral justification from the ancient Judea, then you just stole that land, flat and simple. More Jews like you are the reason that the EU supports the absurd Islamic claims that you are just a bunch of colonizing thieves. Talk about playing right upto the Islamics.

99 posted on 12/05/2005 5:18:17 PM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: Alter Kaker
The simple fact is that the Albanians took Kosovo via waves of illegal immigration and terrorism, finally relying on the assitance of the Great and Wonderful Bill Clinton when the Serbs started fighting back. Not only is that offensive to anyone with any concept of justice, but it also has an ominous significance for the United States which now sees our southwest being subjected to a similar form of colonization.
100 posted on 12/05/2005 5:23:39 PM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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