Posted on 11/20/2005 12:26:18 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster
Blow to US as S Korea makes Iraq troops cut
By Anna Fifield and Caroline Daniel in Busan, South Korea
Published: November 19 2005 02:00 | Last updated: November 19 2005 02:00
South Korea yesterday revealed plans to withdraw about a third of its 3,200 troops from Iraq, an embarrassing diplomatic blow to President George W. Bush only a day after he thanked Roh Moo-hyun, his South Korean counterpart, for helping "democracy flourish" in the Middle East.
As the two leaders attended the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation summit in the South Korean port city of Busan, the South's defence ministry confirmed that a bill on the troop deployment would be submitted to the national assembly next week.
The assembly is required to approve the extension of the Zaytun deployment in northern Iraq beyond the end of the year, and it is understood the bill will call for the forces to be reduced by about 1,000 troops.
Ban Ki-moon, the South's foreign minister, said the issue was "very sensitive".
"We are currently in a situation where we have to get the approval of the national assembly to extend their stay . . . we will comprehensively take into consideration the situation in Iraq, interims of politics and progress, the social situation and security," Mr Ban said at the Apec summit. "We have a principle that we will be extending the stay of troops in Iraq. As to the size of the troops that will stay in Iraq, we are currently reviewing that issue."
The South's defence minister advised the ruling Uri party of the plan last week and Mr Roh's spokeswoman said consultations were now taking place. The deployment has been unpopular in South Korea, with the government facing calls to bring the troops home.
The news came less than 24 hours after Mr Bush, following talks with Mr Roh near Busan, thanked "the people of this wonderful country" for their contribution.
The way the information on the South Korean troops came out appeared to surprise US officials, who said they had not been formally notified of any reduction and who tried to suggest it was not an official decision.
"We know they remain committed to the mission and the need to seek an extension from the national assembly in order to keep the forces there," said Stephen Hadley, national security adviser. "I just got off the phone with the foreign minister . . . and he said South Korea remained committed to the mission to support the Iraqi people and he is seeking an extension from the national assembly so forces can remain in Iraq."
Additional reporting by Guy Dinmore in Washington
S. Korean government repeatedly attempted to arrange the second inter-Korean summit, and elicit approval of U.S. The latest attempt occurred apparently this fall, which reportedly fell apart according to Segye Ilbo, because U.S. stuck to the position mentioned above. Roh himself publicly commented recently that he cannot expect to have another inter-Korean summit, on or before Feb. 16 next year, as some news reports have alleged. Incidentally, Feb. 16 is Kim Jong-il's birthday. So Roh is blocked to use what he believes one of his last political aces. Furthermore, Bush is making a broad sustained political offensive against N. Korea. This includes repeated emphasis on human right and freedom in N. Korea and China, measures to choke off money conduit to N. Korea from outside, and blocking N. Korean or Iranian planes carrying WMD components from flying over Central Asian nations.
All these are quite frustrating to Roh's government. Still, Roh went along with Bush's rhetoric of mutual friendship and cooperation during their APEC summit. However, he now turned around and stabbed Bush in the back in less than 24 hours after the summit, with the surprise announcement of pulling back 1,000 out of 3,000 S. Korean troops deployed in Iraq. This really stings Bush because Bush is in a kind of jam on troop withdrawal domestically. Whatever is left of mutual understanding would be gone with this move. I don't think that Bush will choose to forget this. Now there is no love lost between them, from my point of view.
Roh does live up to my impression of him as a twisted low-life weasel. He always gets back to his opponent this way.
Ping!
You may find this interesting.
It almost makes you want to just withdraw the US forces from S. Korea and let the insane N. Korean dictator take them over.
Well, Roh's term actually ends in a year before those of Bush. He can't be very comfortable now - just sitting there thinking Bush has nothing to lose to move him (and an ally who could be his potential successor) into political troubles.
Yank our troops. 50 years is too long with little thanks.
The South Korean leftist "students" may probably respond "Sure, be my guest!" and party.
The decision may suit both of you - the Koreans happy to see "the Yankees gone", and you are happy to be able to de some defence cooperation works with real allies and with hands less tied on the North Korean issue.
I think from what I read concerning Korean comments, they will probably publicly celebrate over your decision to withdraw all troops from Korea if it becomes reality. "Sure, be my guest!" seems to be what they are thinking.
"leftist "students" may probably respond "Sure, be my guest!" and party. "
Sure,until they actually see what's really like to live under a communist dictatorship.
No problem. We'll just remove our 35,000 from South Korea.
Ruh-Roh
President Roh of SK has become the new chirac.
On President Bush's list, Roh is now "deep in the kimchee"....
From my understanding of how the Chinese Communist regime dealt with their fellow travellers from the pre-Communist-on-the-mainland era, the top 10 to 15 "student" leaders will get lavish inconsequential "consultative" positions, or perhaps superficially-important roles like Communist mayor of Seoul (with real power in the hands of a real KWP cadre, likely titled in the style of the Party Secretary of Seoul). The rest will probably be dead or sent to "labour-reform" camp following a Cultural Revolution type of "mass movement".
Given that North Korea copies whatever actions the Chinese Communist Party does the scenario is not entirely implausible.
Well, are U.S. forces in South Korea to protect South Korea, or are we there to have a base for defending Taiwan, or what? South Korea ought to be able to defend itself by now. We're not going to launch an attack or take any assertive, much less aggressive action against North Korea (and I think the North Korean government knows that better than we do). I don't think the U.S. is really prepared to defend Taiwan from an outright attack by China. So what do we have to gain by being in South Korea?
What I heard among non-US realpolitik circles is that if the US withdraws from South Korea, it will be perceived by the People's Republic of China that it can go ahead and making the whole of East and South East Asia as its sphere of influence. It may then try to politically control various Asian countries using informal means like "using trade and economic ties as a weapon to wring concessions in governmental policies" to places like Thailand or South Korea or Japan, "using aid, military exchange to further influence those in power" for cases like the Philippines and Malaysia.
In other words, there are some in the US diplomacy circle that fear the PRC will then act and make other East Asian states as its puppet states in all but name.
When Rumsfeld offered to withraw US troops about two years ago, there was a burst of capital flight, the students shut up, and the government was begging the US to stop talking like that.
South Korea is a very psychologically insecure country.
And how many Americans died to keep South Korea free?
Its been clear for years that it was time to go. We have far better uses for those troops.
He was always Chirac, or worse. Its just that few people pay attention to South Korea.
Simply redeploy the same number of US troops from SK to Iraq as SK is bringing home. Problem solved, message delivered. It's not as if we're actually depending on those SK troops, they were always window dressing.
It won't have to get to that point. A US withrawal will mean a terrific economic hit to South Korea, capital will move out ASAP, investments will dry up, and a lot of people will accelerate their emigration plans.
Basically, South Korea is an insecure place. They do not trust themselves.
Interesting. I have read some comments that point towards the "Be my guest" stance, but apparently there are a lot who at heart know what the Kim regime is capable of.
Time for Bush to join hands with Koizumi and publicly make a showhand to Roh.
Pardon me, but doesn't the bill have to be approved first before the 1,000 troops are actually withdrawn?
I smell manipulation of the headlines to make Bush look bad. But why should that be surprising?
"It won't have to get to that point. A US withrawal will mean a terrific economic hit to South Korea, capital will move out ASAP, investments will dry up, and a lot of people will accelerate their emigration plans."
Not to mention that South Korea is already living in an economic recession now under Roh - as outsourcing to mainland China, government indecisions on economic reforms, and insane policies have taken their tolls. A free trade agreement with Chile had been dragging on for a year and no one is seriously trying to put the basic agreement to ratification in the Assembly. Domestically his policies are a mess.
Aha - the Assembly is in the opposition (which is more friendly to the United States) hands.
I'm not convinced by this argument either, but trust me, I know from experience with professional diplomatic circles (such as the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade here in NZ) that this is what the non-US diplomats see things.
I think that in a way a continuous U.S. presence in places like South Korea have enabled the people there to elect these sorts of idiots without a second thought.
I agree.
Just off topic, if you are interested to read anti-American "Third World nationalist" idiotic arguments in order to fisk them, I recomment Ming Pao from Hong Kong:
http://www.mingpaonews.com/
It touts itself as "a respected middle class educated people's newspaper" and makes the New York Slimes read like Mark Steyn relatively speaking. It is in Chinese but you can use translators like WorldLingo to translate it into English.
Pravda probably regards itself as a respected middle class educated people's newspaper as well. It doesn't mean that any of their delusional ramblings is worth my time. China is indeed a rising economic power, but I don't see how U.S. troop placements have any effect on that one way or the other. Fisk?
No problem.
We just pull all ofour troops out of South Korea.
Fisking is basically take an article and ripping it bit by it with your arguments.
New headline:
'US to pull troops out of S.Korea
to replace departing SK troops in Iraq."
I could use a nap right now - chronic insomniac.
Not really there is a generational gap.
The older South Koreans, who remeber the
war, before, during, and after, want us
to stay.
The younger ones, who greww up in a country
at peace, with an economy nurtured and boosted
into a world class economy, are all willing
to buy into the propaganda of the North Korean
agitators and subversives that have been
spreading lies & disaffection against the West,
and the US in particular, that are the ones protesting
and rioting.
They atre short sighted and ignorant. f they sicceede
in getting the US to leave (which i think we *should*
do) the likely result will be seen by Kim Jong Il
as his opportunity to push into South Korea..a battle
that the South Koreans would eventually win
militarily, but then their economy (which we helped
them greatly to build) would be crushed under the
weight of the North Korean refugee population.
that would flood south...in search of even just food.
South Korea's troops are all based in Kurdish areas where there is much less threat from the jihadists.
U.S wanted them to take over patrol of Kirkuk which would have relieved some pressure from our troops but Roh backed down after first saying he was for it. That was the big decision. Having South Korean troops in Kurdish areas doesn't help our troops at all. So if there are 3,000 or 2,000 there it is no big deal.
I don't follow the logic, but perhaps I am missing something.
It seems to me that they are doing exactly what you say right now and why would the presence of US troops in South Korea inhibit them from using trade, aid, etc - all the things you list to expand their sphere of influence?
Even militarily, I don't see those troops as a deterrent. If it came down to a war with China, they would not be of any value at all. In fact, they'd probably be a liability, with the US having to get them out quickly or sacrifice all 30,000+.
I suspect among the diplomatic circles, it is commonly thought that the US troops means the government of that land has strong US ties, and if the US withdraws it means the country is just "another foreign country" to the US i.e. there is less ties with America. They think this will send signals that the US has retreated from that country, which means the US has reduced its influence in the region and it is green light now for China to expand their influence in that country and the wider region.
I think it is clear that China believes it is the natural superpower in Asia, that that is its destiny, and even eventually will be the only superpower in the world, leaving the USA isolated and in control of North America only.
They are already aggressively expanding into South and Central America, and also Africa. Read some of the reports from Zimbabwe. Mugabe has cleared out all the local merchants and markets. Now all the shops are Chinese owned and their products made in China. Look at this statement by Trent Lott with reference to the Panama Canal which China now controls:"It appears that we have given away the farm without a shot being fired,.."
I don't see the presence of those troops in Korea as having much of an impact on China strategically or even tactically.
Yank our troops. 50 years is too long with little thanks.Yes.
This is simple enough. All Bush has to say is that South Korea has successfully completed its peace-keeping mission in Iraq and the rest of Roh's troops are no longer needed. Then our five-star tells their five-star to get the hell out of Iraq.
Yeah, but having them there with their families is like foreign aid. Billions of dollars are spent by having those 37.500 troops there. Add the financial impact from having many families there and it is big.
The miracle that is south korea is a result of our having been there for 50 years giving them security. If they can't see or appreciate that then leave them to their own defences. North Korea alone could destroy that miracle but what they should really worry about is designs China ultimately has on all of southeast asia, including all of korea.
You're undoubtedly right on all counts about this, but looked at from the point of view of South Korea...they're on the front line as it were, not the US, yet the US has its own agenda and presumes to tell South Korea what to do. It must chafe now and then. Just a thought.
I know that U.S. has its own interest and it does not completely coincide with S. Korea's. However, appeasement has been done since late 90's, and so far it only embolden North to dictate its terms on more issues. N. Korea has not made any reciprocal move.
Furthermore, those in power now in S. Korea are trying to exacerbate some reservoir of disaffection against U.S. to the hilt. They did not shake off their pro-Juche past. Their hatred against U.S. is really deep-rooted. Young people are easy prey to their media barrage and indoctrination because unions in media corporations and schools are dominated by them.
Their mentality is somewhat on a par with N. Korean regime. Deeply paranoid about outsiders, and absolute blind adherence to their dogma. Seeing these people acting up is deeply unsettling experience. I have seen many of them.
They are more like members of a fanatic cult. When their views are increasingly challenged, they respond by ramping up their intensity of denial and animosity several times over. They will up the ante until their opponents feel scared of ballooning escalation and the resulting prospect of mutual destruction. That is their way.
Right now, inside S. Korea, people are increasingly polarized, and their emotions are charged to an unusual level. People are talking (figuratively and literally) about civil war breaking out inside S. Korea. We are sitting on a powder-keg. Initially pinkos had the momentum, but pinkos and conservatives are approximately of equal strength now, and neither side is backing out. They deeply detest each other.
People are definitely taking sides. Even in the same office, we may have some blowout among officemates not long in the future. Maybe next year?
I believe we have actually stated we planned to remove our forces from the DMZ area.
You are sounding a lot like what I read about Taiwan among my Dad's friends and academic mentors. Taiwan, like South Korea, is also deeply divided among Taiwanese independence ("Green" camp) and pro-Republic of China, or "Blue camp" (I wouldn't say it is the same as pro-unification camp).
Like it or not, the Green camp has a lot of clones of US liberals in it, while the Blue camp also has a lot of love-the-PRC-nationalist anti-American people in it. The two camps are so polarized that it may also edge towards conflicts.
Curiously, Chen Shui-bian has very similar backgrounds when compared with Roh Moo-hyun ("human-rights lawyer" sympathetic to the oppositional movements during the 1970s), and both have made quite a mess in domestic policies even though Chen is not as appeasing towards mainland China as does Roh does to North Korea.
Yes..i've used a pic quite similiar to make that point
between the capitalist South, and the North Korean
Communist regime, and what they have accomplished
in the last 50 plus years....At night, from space
looking at the lights, South Korea appears to be
an island instead of the tip of a peninsula.
North Korea...an entire country lies in such
darkness, you cannot distinguish it from ocean.
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