Potential Origins of Europeans Found

Yahoo News ^ | November 10, 2005 | RANDOLPH E. SCHMID

[AlaskaErik]

A study of DNA from ancient farmers in Europe shows sharp differences from that of modern Europeans — results that are likely to add fuel to the debate over European origins.

Researchers led by Wolfgang Haak of Johannes Gutenberg University in Mainz, Germany, argue that their finding supports the belief that modern residents of central Europe descended from Stone Age hunter-gatherers who were present 40,000 years ago, and not the early farmers who arrived thousands of years later.

But other anthropologists questioned that conclusion, arguing that the available information isn't sufficient to support it.

Haak's team used DNA from 24 skeletons of farmers from about 7,500 years ago, collected in Germany, Austria and Hungary. Six of the skeletons — 25 percent — belonged to the "N1a" human lineage, according to genetic signatures in their mitochondrial DNA, which is inherited from the mother.

The N1a marker is extremely rare in modern Europeans, appearing in just 0.2 percent.

"This was a surprise. I expected the distribution of mitochondrial DNA in these early farmers to be more similar to the distribution we have today in Europe," co-author Joachim Burger, also from Johannes Gutenberg University, said in a statement.

"Our paper suggests that there is a good possibility that the contribution of early farmers could be close to zero," added co-author Peter Forster from the University of Cambridge in England.

Absence of the marker in modern people indicates they are descended from ancient hunter-gatherers rather than the later-arriving farmers, the researchers said.

But others challenged that conclusion.

"The data are new, the analysis is not compelling, and the conclusions are illogical," said anthropologist Milford H. Wolpoff of the University of Michigan.

Anthropologist Joao Zilhao of the University of Bristol, England, noted that the study didn't compare the DNA of the ancient farmers with that of the ancient hunter-gatherers, adding that there are plenty of hunter-gatherer burials in German cave sites that could have been sampled for comparison.

Without that comparison it's hard to say that the difference between modern DNA and that of the ancient farmers means current people are descended from the ancient hunter-gatherers.

"In this particular case, the reason may be because of a farmer input that was subsequently diluted, assuming that the N1a haplotype is a marker of spreading farmers, and that it was as rare in pre-Neolithic Europe as it is today," Zilhao said.

But, he added, "I see nothing in the data that would necessarily carry the exclusion of, for instance, the opposite hypothesis ... that (the N1a marker) represents the incorporation of hunter-gatherer females in the farming communities that are coming into Europe about 7,500 years ago, that incorporation being in such small numbers that, eventually, it all but disappeared."

The research was funded by the German Federal Ministry for Education and Research.

[FreedomCalls]

Do you think it's an accident that the earliest Homo remains all come from a small band in South and East Africa?

Wouldn't the extensive glaciation in the last ice age have destroyed any fossilized remains of pre-ice-age humans in any area north of 40° latitude if they existed?

[FreedomCalls]

An even more astounding fact is that there is a keyboard alternative to the standard Querty keyboard (circa 1870)that is easier to learn and to use. It would make nearly everyone a faster typist. But is it taught? NOOOOOOOO. Because everyone still has the old keyboard and it's considered too difficult to switch over.

You could say the same thing about the metric system.

[BostonianRightist]

The evidence that language is the result of not merely intelligent agents, but agents with exceptionally large brains, is not only self-apparent, it is overwhelming.

Just kinda playing Devil's Advocate here, but are you saying that the PC Nazi's that have been successfully changing our language have exceptionally larger brains?

[Max in Utah]

I hate it when I come upon the scene late and the trolls' posts have been pulled.

Me too. No body visible after the massacre, only a few blood spots.

[Alter Kaker]

Wouldn't the extensive glaciation in the last ice age have destroyed any fossilized remains of pre-ice-age humans in any area north of 40° latitude if they existed?

No. There are plenty of non-human fossils.

[blam]

"An even more astounding fact is that there is a keyboard alternative to the standard Querty keyboard (circa 1870)that is easier to learn and to use. It would make nearly everyone a faster typist."

Texas Instruments produced an early home computer with the new keyboard, they lost their butts and never recovered when they changed to the qwerty keyboard.

[Great Caesars Ghost]

I'm just a rank amateur, just an observer of men, but I notice white people like me are called Caucasians. Further, I notice that people in places like Afghanistan, though muslim, may be blond, and some have blue eyes. I also notice that the people from the Hindus Valley (India, think Hindu, Hindus, Indus, India) are very dark skin, but their features look like mine.

So, I thought my people came from South Asia. Is this article refuting that? I couldn't really tell. They also seem to project a lot of things bassed on this so-called mitochondrial DNA. Is it accurate? Are they peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining?

[Great Caesars Ghost]

Where did Latin come from?

[Great Caesars Ghost]

If this weren't true, rocks would speak--and in local dialects.

According to the Muzzies, they do! Rocks & Trees: "O Son of Islam, there is a jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

[RightWhale]

The ancient homeland appears to be not far from Mt Ararat. Not for the Basque, though.

[ApplegateRanch]

Evolution of language is well-documented, showing modification over generations, selection based on surroundings, and nobody pretends it was "intelligently designed".

Granting that most humans are anything but "intelligent" (crafty, sly, scheming, 'learned', cunning, etc; yes. Intelligent, not) you may be onto something. In that case, "like Topsy, it just grew."

OTOH, the few intelligent humans around would be the 'intelligence' behind the evolution of human language.

Back to square one in the argument. That is the square where everyone squares off at each other, rather than displaying intelligence.

AFAIK, language DEVOLVES, as the common people use & abuse it, reducing it to the simplest, crudest form possible to still communicate the barest modicum of everyday drivel.

For "proof" look at emails and SMS-speak, and listen to Liberal talking...

[hosepipe]

I've always thought URPeans decended from bees and wasps.. since they have a propensity for the hive.. you know, socialism..

[ApplegateRanch]

we are from here

From where?>/B>

We are not from this planet, and evolution proves it.

If we had evolved here...

we would not get flat feet from the gravity

we would not be burned nor blinded by "our own" sun's rays

Our skin would not be so thin that cacti & goatshead thorns...Oh, never mind.

[thoughtomator]

You mean, the advantage of being actually and practically useful? Hmm... I dunno, do we have the support of the French on this?

[little jeremiah]

Pancha means 5 in Sanskrit. Dva means two, tri means three, sapta seven. Off the top of my head.

Tumulo - tumultuous. Jugala - conjugal. (Y)Jauvana - youth (see juvenile in there?). Duhitr - daughter. Pita - father. Matra - mother. Go - cow. Raj - king (royal). Etcetcetc.

[little jeremiah]

Have you read "Human Devolution" by any chance?

[B Knotts]

Maybe they were "guest farmers."

[ElkGroveDan]

Wouldn't the extensive glaciation in the last ice age have destroyed any fossilized remains

Not at all. Glaciers scour the surface of the land but do not necessarily destroy buried fossils, especially fossils in caves.

[ElkGroveDan]

An even more astounding fact is that there is a keyboard alternative to the standard Querty keyboard (circa 1870)that is easier to learn and to use. It would make nearly everyone a faster typist. But is it taught? NOOOOOOOO. Because everyone still has the old keyboard and it's considered too difficult to switch over.

You could say the same thing about the metric system.

And quadraphonic stereo and beta video, and rotary engines, and Macintosh computers, and "New" Coke etc. etc. There will always be a product that the "smart people" all know to be "better" but the free market rejects. It's as predictable as the sunrise and I love it every time that happens.

[ApplegateRanch]

Have you read "Human Devolution" by any chance?

I honestly don't recall, but wouldn't be surprised.

I DID read Pan Satyrus though.

That is about a chimp that is put into orbit. The satellite orbits 'the wrong direction' causing 'time to reverse' and devolving the chimp into a human, befor returning to earth.

The rest of the book is his quest, remembering what exalted heights he once held, to get reorbited and reevolved. It ends with him a happy chimp once again, returned to the jungle.