Bring back the Marine Raider Battalions...Semper Fi
Posted on 11/01/2005 2:23:24 PM PST by SmithL
WASHINGTON -- In a historic step designed to bolster the military's ability to fight a global war on terrorism, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Tuesday he approved adding Marines to U.S. Special Operations Command, the organization in charge of SEALs, Green Berets and other commando-style forces.
It is the first time since the command was created in April 1987 that the Marine Corps has been included, and Rumsfeld said the change reflects a need for the Pentagon to continue to adapt to the tactics of an adversary like the al-Qaida terror network that uses unconventional means to counter American firepower.
"It's important that we continue to assess and adapt because of the nature of the enemy that we face," Rumsfeld told a Pentagon news conference. "It's an enemy that believes that we, the free and civilized world, don't have the stamina or the will to sustain a difficult effort over the necessary period of time."
Special operations forces, which train to perform a variety of sometimes-clandestine missions behind enemy lines, have taken on a more prominent role since the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks as the Pentagon adjusts to fighting a shadowy enemy. But the Marine Corps for years has resisted being integrated into the Special Operations Command because its leaders feared diluting their traditional sea-borne missions.
The Marines argued that they already had inherent special operations capabilities, such as reconnaissance teams. Also, the idea of creating an "elite" element within the Marines — as the Army, Navy and Air Force have within their services — ran counter to a service culture that says no Marine is more elite than another.
When Congress passed legislation creating Special Operations Command in 1986, the Navy initially resisted contributing its SEALs (Sea-Air-Land teams) and special boat units, arguing . . .
(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...
WOW...JSOC is certainly going to get crowded.
Marines deserve it.
Semper Fi.
bttt
They have ... Marine Recon. Shouldn't be much of a stretch for the Corps to comply ... however, it runs counter to their Marine Corps ethos that all units are equal, and all play an important part in a well integrated fighting team. Every Marine first and foremost is a rifleman, all the rest comes later.
I can see doing this with Marine Force Recon units, but there are a lot of garden-variety Marines out there who don't have training and physical fitness that's at the level that Green Berets, SEALs and Rangers have. They are good soldiers, no doubt, but they aren't at that elite level. I'd like to see this limited to the Force Recon units.
...but gotta give him props on this. Much needed.
Ping
An ethos that the Army is picking up now...because of deployment schedules and recruiting issues...EVERYONE IN THE ARMY is a required to be a rifleman/infantry soldier along with their MOS, which IMHO is no different that really how it always has been in good ARMY units with good leadership.
Ft. Jackson has changed its training in regard to this.
Bring back the Marine Raider Battalions...Semper Fi
It seems to me there is a lot implied in Rummy's statment.
The corps is much smaller in number than the ARMY, NAVY, etc...and, sadly, as a lot of marines will testify...when it comes to appropriations are treated as such.
The old running joke was that MARINES fight better with ARMY "hand me downs" than the ARMY fights with new equipment...
This tells me..the MARINES will get more funding, and so will upgrade their training (and equipment) to meet SPECOPS criteria...at least in some fashion, but frankly, you are going to get elite units within an elite corps. However, the MARINES are small enough as a group to makes such action effective as a whole. It's good news.
Marine Recon personnel go to all the same schools other special op personnel attend. Marine career officers and NCO's often are assigned to a tour of duty with British commando units ... and vice-versa. These units are all topnotch, the training is very similar.
We need to ask our Jarhead buds what they think about this. No offense, fellows. But as sure as I am that the Marines need to be deployed much and well, I do not know that they would think a selection of marines should just be stirred in.
Of course, look who the current CJCS is: Gen Pace, USMC. I think they will probably do some of the stirring.
I never saw any Marines taking SF courses at Bragg. Admittedly, it has been over 35 years since I was discharged.
They go there for jump qualification all the time. In fact they can almost commute from Camp Lejeune to Fort Bragg.
Yes, they deserve it,
but do they want it? I like
the "no elite" view,
but I'm no soldier.
I wonder what the feeling
is among Marines?
Just like the Army and Navy, the USMC can't just put any Marine into SOCOM units. Generally, you're talking about the best of the best. There are plenty of SF, Delta, Ranger and SEALs who spent a long hard road getting there.
There's actually several books out there on how special operations units within a standing army effects those outside of the units. Several studies commissioned by the DOD available to the public as well.
There are chain of command issues, intra-service rivalry, etc...but outside of the negatives there are a lot of positives.
And the US Armed Forces has learned a LOT over the years. There's greater acceptance for the role of SPECOPS within the regular army then there was, say, twenty years ago.
From my, limited experience, I'd say the Marines are glad just to have the opportunity for more funding...hahahahahha..and, of course, to be well thought of by the SECDEF.
What about Force Recon?
Great idea and about time they did it.
Funny that this happens when we get a Marine Chief of Staff for the Joint Chiefs
They the guys in Recon and Force want it. First hand knowledge.
I know.
I have a friend whose son is a Ranger -- I have known him since he was two months old and it's such a joy to see him attain this goal. His mom showed me a picture of him with the unit he led, and I have never seen such a group of MEN. I can't describe it. They were the embodiment of tempered strength, warriors, altogether ONE MAN, but I didn't fear that mass of strength. I've never seen a group of men who seemed to be one man the way this group was. No division among them. He was raised to be a very disciplined and responsible human being and it oozes from him.
He's getting his Master's now, after which he'll be teaching some sort of advanced math at West Point.
It seems that the basis of the discussion in this thread is whether the Marines have the toughness or capability to conduct direct action operations. That is not in dispute, they are good infantryman and do fine when lead is flying. However, that is not the reason SOCOM and its constituent organizations exist. If it were, all that would be needed is to take a brigade or two out of 18th Airborne Corps, turn them into Ranger Regiments and call it a day. The reason SOCOM, and Army Special Forces in particular, exists is because their operational sets are far outside of the mainstream military. No Marine, no matter how much he can bench press and if he has gone to SCUBA school, can infiltrate a foriegn (usually hostile) region, gain and build the confidence of a tribe or resistance group and turn them into an effective fighting force capable as acting as surrogates for U.S. forces. The Marines want money and the Marines want relevance. As long as they keep playng the woe-is-me, we are always the last to get anything good game, they will keep playing the step-child role they seem to revel in. They were give the chance to take a role in SOCOM in 86 but their bragadiccio kept them from it. They will prove their inability to understand the SOCOM concept soon enough. /screed
Schummer is deeply saddened...
US Army Field Artillery School at Fort Sill (USAFAS) - all Marine Redlegs go here.
US Army Airborne School - USMC, SEALs, USAF, USCG (anybody who's anybody ;)
US Army Ranger School - only a lucky few Marines are so blessed.
US Army Armor School at Ft. Knox, although the USMC conducts it's own armor course here, as well.
and many more...
Indeed, the United States has the best military IN THE WORLD.
Recon......Ooorahhhh!
Semper Fi'
I never saw any Marines taking SF courses at Bragg. Admittedly, it has been over 35 years since I was discharged
They do it all the time. Marines are enrolled in the entire gamut of SF courses, and they do great. They return to their own branch with the knowledge of new techniques, and are able to operate better with their sister services.
The only time I was worried was when a Marine wanted to use his K-bar as a combat surgery instrument in MedLab.
Speaking as a former Marine ... you are probably one of the most clueless ash**** I've come across in this forum in the seven years I've been on board. The Marines have been relevant for 230 years ... don't ever forget that dog breath. Semper Fi ... and FU.
They didn't when I was in, at least I never saw them. Do they go through Q and the other training?
"Put silver wings on my son's chest, make him one..."
Yikes, I guess I touched a nerve. Actually, I'm a bit less clueless than you think, likely a bit closer to the situation than you. My personal experience is unique. I'm not knocking the Marines at all, I just understand that the GWOT requires a unique set of skills, they just happen to be skills that the Marines don;t intrinsicallt possess. I'd rahter have another SF Group than a Marine detachment. Sorry if you took my comments the wrong way.
I had a Marine MAJ in my SFAS and "Q" Course...he was to be a staff Officer at USAJFKSWC
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