Importing Poverty: The Cheap Labor Trap

AmericanEconomicAlert.org ^ | Monday, September 05, 2005 | William R. Hawkins

[Paul Ross]

Stop whining yourself.

[jpsb]

bump is right!

[mad puppy]

Also from the article:
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Economic theory, however, argues that managers will use the least-cost method of production, and when labor is the abundant factor, labor-intensive methods will be chosen over capital-intensive methods that use relatively expensive technology. This can restructure an entire economy in the wrong direction. America's shift from a manufacturing economy where scientific progress is most fruitful, to a service economy dominated by cheap labor fits the model of a country in long-term decline.


The United States needs to choose which path it wants to follow.

------

From you:

"No thank you, I'll trust private businesses to decide what's best for them, not the government."
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OK, that seems pretty clear to me. You are going with the businesses and their short sighted goals which essentially exploit the illegals versus controlling the borders which essentially force businesses to CONTINUE improving their productivity and lifting the standard of living for their workers.

We simply disagree and frankly, it seems you are among the few. Also note that nothing has been said about the security of the country yet, which in my mind makes the case for controlled borders stronger still.

[reelfoot]

"'as immigrants entered these occupations, native workers exited.' This was particularly true in the blue collar category where immigrants accounted for nearly 700% of the new jobs! That means they pushed tens of thousands of Americans out of those jobs, by underbidding their wages."

It seems that those jobs not being exported are being filled by bottom-rung illegal immigrants. I know the left-wing, open-borders, we-are-the-world crowd could care less. Also, Pres. Jorge Bush and his big business buddies also like the arrangement. But the long-term trend for America is very disturbing.

Halt ALL immigration now. Revise the immigration laws to only allow limited numbers of highly trained, highly educated immigrants. Close the borders. Enforce the laws, El Presidente.

[A. Pole]

There is in fact a huge demand for unskilled labor.

Especially at or below the subsistence wages. Much cheaper than invest in expensive labor saving technology. Back to the Middle Ages.

[ex-snook]

"I believe that most people who are not succeeding in this economy should look into the mirror instead of pointing their fingers at Dubya or DC.

That sort of reminded of someone who did not give thanks for the brains he was born with.

" The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. "

or include, thanks for not being as dumb as those people who are not succeeding.

[elbucko]

There is no labor surplus. There is in fact a huge demand for unskilled labor.

There is a labor surplus in unskilled labor. It is the reason that these jobs pay so poorly. Before the massive illegal immigration, these jobs were stepping stones to better work positions or could maintain a person through college. They do not exist anymore.

[bayourod]

"We simply disagree and frankly, it seems you are among the few."

Oh really? The majority want the central government micromanaging business decisions?

The majority support President Bush as reflected in the election just ten months ago in which no member of the Constitution Party (anti-illegals, protectionist and anti-Iraq war) was elected to anything.

Nothing has changed in ten months except hurricane Katrina.

[judgeandjury]

Oh really? The majority want the central government micromanaging business decisions?

The majority want businesses to obey the laws of our country. But for an illegal immigration cheerleader such as yourself, the concept of obeying the law is apparently pointless.

[mad puppy]

Oh really? The majority want the central government micromanaging business decisions?

Wow.

I certainly don't remember suggestion that, but then again, every time I've seen you logically argued into an ugly corner it is typically followed by you name calling and making these types of wild, grossly exaggerated statements.

Bayourod, if you can't argue the facts, sinking to this level does little if any good. Well, maybe on DU.

[Paul Ross]

The majority want the central government micromanaging business decisions?

Which is precisely what WTO, NAFTA and CAFTA and Doha do...and even worse...foreign entities are now "micro-managing" business decisions that should be the sole province of the U.S. congress to set the playing field. You have read the U.S. Constitution, haven't you?

Perhaps you should start re-reading then. And how about the Federalist Papers?

Federalist No. 2 Concerning Dangers from Foreign Force and Influence For the Independent Journal.

Author: John Jay

To the People of the State of New York:

WHEN the people of America reflect that they are now called upon to decide a question, which, in its consequences, must prove one of the most important that ever engaged their attention, the propriety of their taking a very comprehensive, as well as a very serious, view of it, will be evident.

Nothing is more certain than the indispensable necessity of government, and it is equally undeniable, that whenever and however it is instituted, the people must cede to it some of their natural rights in order to vest it with requisite powers. It is well worthy of consideration therefore, whether it would conduce more to the interest of the people of America that they should, to all general purposes, be one nation, under one federal government, or that they should divide themselves into separate confederacies, and give to the head of each the same kind of powers which they are advised to place in one national government.

It has until lately been a received and uncontradicted opinion that the prosperity of the people of America depended on their continuing firmly united, and the wishes, prayers, and efforts of our best and wisest citizens have been constantly directed to that object. But politicians now appear, who insist that this opinion is erroneous, and that instead of looking for safety and happiness in union, we ought to seek it in a division of the States into distinct confederacies or sovereignties. However extraordinary this new doctrine may appear, it nevertheless has its advocates; and certain characters who were much opposed to it formerly, are at present of the number. Whatever may be the arguments or inducements which have wrought this change in the sentiments and declarations of these gentlemen, it certainly would not be wise in the people at large to adopt these new political tenets without being fully convinced that they are founded in truth and sound policy.

It has often given me pleasure to observe that independent America was not composed of detached and distant territories, but that one connected, fertile, widespreading country was the portion of our western sons of liberty. Providence has in a particular manner blessed it with a variety of soils and productions, and watered it with innumerable streams, for the delight and accommodation of its inhabitants. A succession of navigable waters forms a kind of chain round its borders, as if to bind it together; while the most noble rivers in the world, running at convenient distances, present them with highways for the easy communication of friendly aids, and the mutual transportation and exchange of their various commodities.

With equal pleasure I have as often taken notice that Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people--a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs, and who, by their joint counsels, arms, and efforts, fighting side by side throughout a long and bloody war, have nobly established general liberty and independence.

This country and this people seem to have been made for each other, and it appears as if it was the design of Providence, that an inheritance so proper and convenient for a band of brethren, united to each other by the strongest ties, should never be split into a number of unsocial, jealous, and alien sovereignties.

Similar sentiments have hitherto prevailed among all orders and denominations of men among us. To all general purposes we have uniformly been one people each individual citizen everywhere enjoying the same national rights, privileges, and protection. As a nation we have made peace and war; as a nation we have vanquished our common enemies; as a nation we have formed alliances, and made treaties, and entered into various compacts and conventions with foreign states.

A strong sense of the value and blessings of union induced the people, at a very early period, to institute a federal government to preserve and perpetuate it. They formed it almost as soon as they had a political existence; nay, at a time when their habitations were in flames, when many of their citizens were bleeding, and when the progress of hostility and desolation left little room for those calm and mature inquiries and reflections which must ever precede the formation of a wise and wellbalanced government for a free people. It is not to be wondered at, that a government instituted in times so inauspicious, should on experiment be found greatly deficient and inadequate to the purpose it was intended to answer.

This intelligent people perceived and regretted these defects. Still continuing no less attached to union than enamored of liberty, they observed the danger which immediately threatened the former and more remotely the latter; and being pursuaded that ample security for both could only be found in a national government more wisely framed, they as with one voice, convened the late convention at Philadelphia, to take that important subject under consideration.

This convention composed of men who possessed the confidence of the people, and many of whom had become highly distinguished by their patriotism, virtue and wisdom, in times which tried the minds and hearts of men, undertook the arduous task. In the mild season of peace, with minds unoccupied by other subjects, they passed many months in cool, uninterrupted, and daily consultation; and finally, without having been awed by power, or influenced by any passions except love for their country, they presented and recommended to the people the plan produced by their joint and very unanimous councils.

Admit, for so is the fact, that this plan is only RECOMMENDED, not imposed, yet let it be remembered that it is neither recommended to BLIND approbation, nor to BLIND reprobation; but to that sedate and candid consideration which the magnitude and importance of the subject demand, and which it certainly ought to receive. But this (as was remarked in the foregoing number of this paper) is more to be wished than expected, that it may be so considered and examined. Experience on a former occasion teaches us not to be too sanguine in such hopes. It is not yet forgotten that well-grounded apprehensions of imminent danger induced the people of America to form the memorable Congress of 1774. That body recommended certain measures to their constituents, and the event proved their wisdom; yet it is fresh in our memories how soon the press began to teem with pamphlets and weekly papers against those very measures. Not only many of the officers of government, who obeyed the dictates of personal interest, but others, from a mistaken estimate of consequences, or the undue influence of former attachments, or whose ambition aimed at objects which did not correspond with the public good, were indefatigable in their efforts to pursuade the people to reject the advice of that patriotic Congress. Many, indeed, were deceived and deluded, but the great majority of the people reasoned and decided judiciously; and happy they are in reflecting that they did so.

They considered that the Congress was composed of many wise and experienced men. That, being convened from different parts of the country, they brought with them and communicated to each other a variety of useful information. That, in the course of the time they passed together in inquiring into and discussing the true interests of their country, they must have acquired very accurate knowledge on that head. That they were individually interested in the public liberty and prosperity, and therefore that it was not less their inclination than their duty to recommend only such measures as, after the most mature deliberation, they really thought prudent and advisable.

These and similar considerations then induced the people to rely greatly on the judgment and integrity of the Congress; and they took their advice, notwithstanding the various arts and endeavors used to deter them from it. But if the people at large had reason to confide in the men of that Congress, few of whom had been fully tried or generally known, still greater reason have they now to respect the judgment and advice of the convention, for it is well known that some of the most distinguished members of that Congress, who have been since tried and justly approved for patriotism and abilities, and who have grown old in acquiring political information, were also members of this convention, and carried into it their accumulated knowledge and experience.

It is worthy of remark that not only the first, but every succeeding Congress, as well as the late convention, have invariably joined with the people in thinking that the prosperity of America depended on its Union. To preserve and perpetuate it was the great object of the people in forming that convention, and it is also the great object of the plan which the convention has advised them to adopt. With what propriety, therefore, or for what good purposes, are attempts at this particular period made by some men to depreciate the importance of the Union? Or why is it suggested that three or four confederacies would be better than one? I am persuaded in my own mind that the people have always thought right on this subject, and that their universal and uniform attachment to the cause of the Union rests on great and weighty reasons, which I shall endeavor to develop and explain in some ensuing papers. They who promote the idea of substituting a number of distinct confederacies in the room of the plan of the convention, seem clearly to foresee that the rejection of it would put the continuance of the Union in the utmost jeopardy. That certainly would be the case, and I sincerely wish that it may be as clearly foreseen by every good citizen, that whenever the dissolution of the Union arrives, America will have reason to exclaim, in the words of the poet: ``FAREWELL! A LONG FAREWELL TO ALL MY GREATNESS.''

PUBLIUS.

[fallujah-nuker]

You started so well with " I'm also not for open borders and I don't know anyone who is. I think illegal immigration should to be stopped. It is a danger to our security."

But it ended up as "...I think it makes little sense to solve the problem of ( picking a number out of thin air ) 200,000 criminals and terrorist crossing our border by expanding the problem and trying to stop 3 million illegal crossings every year....

Kind of has an "I actually voted for the 87 billion dollars, before I voted against it" kind of nuance.

One other thing, no legislation is needed to secure the border, all that is needed is for President Bush to enforce the laws of the land, which he swore an oath to do, upon a Bible, twice. Congress even appropriated funding for more border agents, he cut the money. President Bush is not the solution, he is a big part of the problem.

[fallujah-nuker]

Such a shame to throw in the towel on your "open borders" ping list. Of course you can give it another name, to hide the objective, such a "fascism" ping, or better yet "stormfront." You are both well versed with that style.

Posted by 1rudeboy to meadsjn
On News/Activism 08/31/2005 5:11:44 AM PDT · 24 of 67

And furthermore, business owners get tax credits for hiring foreigners here on work visas, but none for hiring Americans.

Where did you get that notion? Vdare, or Stormfront?
Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies

Goes well with some posts from Once-ler, such as post #281 on this thread. Admin Moderator removed his handiwork in this case, but the post was quoted below:

To: Jim Robinson; Admin Moderator; Once-Ler
"Do you write this drivel or cut and paste from stormfront?"

This jerk's only argument is now that I'm a racist. "Stormfront" is a disgusting virulent neo-Nazi hate forum. This jerk is calling me a neo-Nazi racist now. It's over the top, and I won't stand for it. I don't know if "once-ler" is the reincarnation of Barlowmaker or other banned trolls, but Jim, I won't stand for it. He needs to lift his debate above simply calling folks racists and Nazis when he has no argument, or leave Free Repbulic.
336 posted on 12/17/2004 8:02:34 AM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 281 | View Replies ]
24 posted on 08/31/2005 5:11:44 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

"Louis, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship." Rick Blaine

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/user-posts?id=17768;more=32168919
http://freerepublic.info/focus/f-news/1302385/replies?c=336

[1rudeboy]

C'mon, bring it. Find me an "open borders" member on this website. Otherwise, STFU.

[Once-Ler]

O fear the LORD, you his holy ones, for those who fear him have no want. - Psalms 34:9

[Once-Ler]

Before the massive illegal immigration, these jobs were stepping stones to better work positions or could maintain a person through college.

The purpose of business is not creating jobs. Jobs are just a byproduct of the pursuit of wealth. There is nothing inherently good about paying 9$ an hour to bag groceries or mop floors.

If you believe providing a comfortable living for high school dropouts is the greatest good then let us cut out the middle man, stop fighting about trade laws, and let our socialist government pass a 25$ an hour minimum wage.

[Once-Ler]

You started so well

Thank you.

Kind of has an "I actually voted for the 87 billion dollars, before I voted against it" kind of nuance.

More like thinking outside the box. It must be frustrating for you to KNOW that if America would just do what you want everything would be perfect, but every year the voters reject your wisdom and vote for another Republican or rat.

Congress even appropriated funding for more border agents, he cut the money.

Congress writes the budget. Dubya can mearly sign it or VETO. Dubya cannot cut funding for border agents. You seem to know very little about goverment. Please educate yourself.

[Once-Ler]

The little girly Freeper couldn't handle a jab and tattled when his feeling got bruised...10 months ago. I am flattered you remember.

SWAK

[elbucko]

If you believe providing a comfortable living for high school dropouts is the greatest good then let us cut out the middle man, stop fighting about trade laws, and let our socialist government pass a 25$ an hour minimum wage.

You have corrupted this discussion with your invective and abstract assumptions that I no longer care to continue the discourse. Look moron, I owned a very successful machine shop that, by luck and opportunity I morphed into other businesses. I don't need your theoretical ranting to tell me where the buck comes from, where it ends up, or accuse me of being a socialist. Take your argument and stuff it. And if you work for me, you're fired!

[mthom]

Why do you support a guest worker program that has a built in preference for workers from mexico?