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Bones reveal first shoe-wearers
BBC ^ | 8/24/05 | Olivia Johnson

Posted on 08/24/2005 10:06:07 PM PDT by LibWhacker

Sturdy shoes first came into widespread use between 40,000 and 26,000 years ago, according to a US scientist.

Humans' small toes became weaker during this time, says physical anthropologist Erik Trinkaus, who has studied scores of early human foot bones.

He attributes this anatomical change to the invention of rugged shoes, that reduced our need for strong, flexible toes to grip and balance.

The research is presented in the Journal of Archaeological Science.

The development of footwear appears to have affected the four so-called "lesser" toes - excepting the big toe.

Ancient footwear

While early humans living in cold northern climates may have begun covering up their feet to insulate them as early as 500,000 years ago, protective footwear comparable to modern-day shoes is thought to be a much later innovation.

It has been difficult for archaeologists to determine exactly when humans stopped going barefoot, however, because the plant and animal materials used to make prehistoric shoes is highly perishable.

"The oldest shoes in the world are about 9,000 years old, and they're from California," said Professor Trinkaus, of Washington University in St Louis, US.

But by examining the foot bones of early modern humans (Homo sapiens) and Neaderthals (Homo neanderthalensis) dating from 10,000 to 100,000 years ago, Professer Trinkaus says he has determined the period in which footwear became the norm.

Anatomical evidence

He found Neanderthals and early moderns living in Middle Palaeolithic times (100,000 to 40,000 years ago) had thicker, and therefore stronger, lesser toes than those of Upper Palaeolithic people living 26,000 years ago.

A shoe-less lifestyle promotes stronger little toes, says Professor Trinkaus, because "when you walk barefoot, you grip the ground with your toes as a natural reflex". Because hard-soled shoes improve both grip and balance, regularly shod people develop weaker little toes.

To test the theory that the more delicate toes resulted from shoe use, the Washington University researcher compared the foot bones of early Native Americans, who regularly went barefoot, and contemporary Alaskan Inuits, who sported heavy sealskin boots.

Again, he identified chunkier toes in the population that routinely went without shoes. The research suggests shoe-wearers developed weaker toes simply because of the reduced stresses on them during their lifetime; it was not an evolutionary change.

The comparison proves his hypothesis, he says: "It has been suggested in the past that thicker toes and fingers are related to greater blood supply in colder climates, but it just doesn't hold up."

Cultural "explosion"

The advent of footwear occurred during a period Professor Trinkaus describes as "a well-documented archaeological explosion" which also produced a number of other notable human advances.

Paul Mellars, professor of prehistory and human evolution at the University of Cambridge, UK, agrees there were "dramatic changes" in human behaviour at this time. "From 35,000 years ago onward, you see the first art, the first stone tools, and the first personal decorations and jewellery."

More advanced shoe-making skills could have been a product of this overall increase in technological ingenuity.

"There is a strong hint that people were doing more complicated things with ...skins, with special stone tools for cleaning and awls for piercing.

"In view of all these changes, it wouldn't be at all surprising if we saw better shoes," Professor Mellars explained.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: anatomical; ancient; bones; bunions; evidence; first; footwear; freepun; godsgravesglyphs; hammertoe; history; shoe; toes; wearers
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1 posted on 08/24/2005 10:06:07 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker
So, VibramTM soles are from the Paleolithic?
2 posted on 08/24/2005 10:11:46 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: GSlob

3 posted on 08/24/2005 10:16:29 PM PDT by endthematrix ("an ominous vacancy"...I mean, JOHN ROBERTS now fills this space!)
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To: LibWhacker

I'll buy that the idea of shoes may have spread in the mentioned 14,000 interval (40,000 - 26,000 BCE). But I can't buy the notion that the necessity to wear shoes due to evolutionary changes in human anatomy happened world wide in that period.


4 posted on 08/24/2005 10:44:06 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Mesocons for Rice '08)
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To: Mike Darancette

Ah, but it wasn't an evolutionary change, according to the article. The lesser toes on shoe-wearers are weaker because they aren't exercised as much, and this shows up in the anatomy.


5 posted on 08/24/2005 10:58:25 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker; blam
Sturdy shoes first came into widespread use between 40,000 and 26,000 years ago,Humans' small toes became weaker during this time

By time of the emergence of modern humans (175,000 - 200,000 years ago), we had evolved the capability of running/jogging 35-50 miles per day on a near perpetual basis. An attribute Darwinism tells us wouldn't have occurred unless this ability was necessary to survive. IOW, those who couldn't keep up didn't live to mate. The one question I have about this running man theory of mine is the practical necessity of shoes or some type of foot protection to run that consistently. I seem to have found the answer in Steven Oppenhiemer's "The Real Eve" which postulates that modern humans were almost exclusively beach combers up until at least 60,000 years ago. It's a lot easier to run barefoot on soft sand than inland terrain.

He found Neanderthals and early moderns living in Middle Palaeolithic times (100,000 to 40,000 years ago) had thicker, and therefore stronger, lesser toes than those of Upper Palaeolithic people living 26,000 years ago.

Since again, Darwinism implies that physical evolution wouldn't occur unless it was necessary to survive over an extended period, the stretched dates seem logical for the inland move away from the beach for modern humans, the cold weather suggestion seems more appropriate for the neatherdhals?

6 posted on 08/24/2005 11:13:59 PM PDT by shuckmaster
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To: LibWhacker
Sturdy shoes first came into widespread use between 40,000 and 26,000 years ago, according to a US scientist.Humans' small toes became weaker during this time, says physical anthropologist Erik Trinkaus, who has studied scores of early human foot bones. He attributes this anatomical change to the invention of rugged shoes, that reduced our need for strong, flexible toes to grip and balance.

This is absurd. People stopped growing strong toes because shoes came along? No one could make that argument with a straight face. They would need to argue that strong toed people were not sexually desirable so didn't pass along their strong toes...that would at least make evolutionary sense.

7 posted on 08/24/2005 11:18:58 PM PDT by Jim_Curtis
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To: LibWhacker

How can they tell how strong a toe was without having muscle tissue to examine? Bone size seems irrelevant. Europeans typically have larger bones in their feet than Asians do. So what?


8 posted on 08/24/2005 11:32:29 PM PDT by Jaysun (Democrats: We must become more effective at fooling people.)
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To: Jim_Curtis

First question, which kind of toes are recessive & which are dominant? Second question, is it different for the different populations?

Before shoes, weak toed people would get killed off in greater rates, cuz they ran slower when the beasty chased a tribe, so fewer people would pass along weak toes. After shoes, more weak toe people would live to reproduce. Could be that smart weak toe people invented shoes, giving smart weak toe people an advantage over all strong toe people & stupid weak toe people.


9 posted on 08/24/2005 11:40:21 PM PDT by GoLightly
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To: Jim_Curtis
"This is absurd. People stopped growing strong toes because shoes came along? No one could make that argument with a straight face. They would need to argue that strong toed people were not sexually desirable so didn't pass along their strong toes...that would at least make evolutionary sense."

It's NOT an evolutionary argument. The claim is that people stopped growing strong toes because with the advent of shoes their toes no longer got the same amount of exercise. Presumably, we've still got the genes for big strong toes and if we were to spend our lives barefoot running through the forest and climbing trees and rocks all day we'd have big, strong toes again.

10 posted on 08/24/2005 11:59:52 PM PDT by elmer fudd
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To: GoLightly
Weak toes dominant and strong toes recessive? I guess I could consider that notion but as far as the shoe angle goes, aren't there some tribes that never really devised shoes for themselves that have no members with "strong toes"?

If you don't find the "strong toes" in the primitive shoeless tribes, you can throw out the shoe theory.
11 posted on 08/25/2005 12:00:34 AM PDT by Jim_Curtis
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To: Jaysun
How do we know that strong toes (in adults) were not a developmental variation instead of a genetic one?

Can similar shifts be seen in finger sizes?

Did we just keep the little ones (fingers) for digging bugs and various substances out of bodily orifices?

Why not just have bigger toes to retain heat during the ice ages, whereas smaller toes with less unit volume per unit of surface area would be more prone to freezing?

After the climate mediated, big, hairy toes would sweat more and smell bad, where delicate toes would be less prone to getting funky and driving Og-ette out of the cave.

Thus, a shift in mating habits brought about by foot odor....

12 posted on 08/25/2005 12:10:50 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (God save us from the fury of the do-gooders!)
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To: LibWhacker


I might sound vain but I could care less about this as long as I keep getting my Manolo Blahniks. Ladies, you KNOW exactly what I am saying :)



13 posted on 08/25/2005 12:19:04 AM PDT by Quinotto (On matters of style swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Jim_Curtis
Weak toes dominant and strong toes recessive?

$ound$ like it would need to be $tudied.

I guess I could consider that notion but as far as the shoe angle goes, aren't there some tribes that never really devised shoes for themselves that have no members with "strong toes"?

Good question. $omething el$e needing to be examined.

If you don't find the "strong toes" in the primitive shoeless tribes, you can throw out the shoe theory.

He found that with one tribal paring. Further inve$tigation will need to be done.

14 posted on 08/25/2005 12:37:53 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: Smokin' Joe
Thus, a shift in mating habits brought about by foot odor....

I though cave chicks preferred noxious smelling feet?
15 posted on 08/25/2005 12:42:57 AM PDT by Jaysun (Democrats: We must become more effective at fooling people.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

Feet without shoes don't get that funky foot smell.


16 posted on 08/25/2005 12:44:41 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: Quinotto
Ladies, you KNOW exactly what I am saying :)

Not this girl! Shoes shaped like those would never have left my closet, if I had a momentary lapse & actually bought a pair. Some women get foot bones removed to wear things like those? Get real!

17 posted on 08/25/2005 12:51:01 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: GoLightly
One woman's pain is other woman's pleasure :) I have no problem with wearing both sensible shoes (I sound like a British heroin from a Bronte sisters book) but I also enjoy these kind of shoes. I'll deal with bunions when/if it ever gets to that.
18 posted on 08/25/2005 1:07:16 AM PDT by Quinotto (On matters of style swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: GoLightly

LOL!

*Looking* at them made my feet hurt....:))

How come nobody is studying hillbilly feet?

In my formative years, unless I was in school, I was barefoot nearly year round.
Thanks to that, I "evolved" the ability to write with my feet, pick up things as small as a dime with my toes [to hubby's continual amazement/amusement] and can deliver a pretty good pinch with them, if necessary....:))

[I've deigned to wear slip-on sneaks when out in the yard now so I have become somewhat more "civilized" in my old age]...;D

Yeah, I know...danged b'arfoot, ridge-running, bog-trotting hick....LOL!


19 posted on 08/25/2005 1:30:01 AM PDT by Salamander (We're pain, we're steel, a plot of knives. We're Transmaniacon MC!)
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To: Quinotto
The ultimate "agony of de feet";


20 posted on 08/25/2005 1:31:54 AM PDT by Salamander (We're pain, we're steel, a plot of knives. We're Transmaniacon MC!)
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To: Salamander
No, thanks! :)
21 posted on 08/25/2005 2:04:24 AM PDT by Quinotto (On matters of style swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Quinotto

You can't actually *walk* in those and I don't care to contemplate what you *are* supposed to do in them....;))


22 posted on 08/25/2005 2:10:42 AM PDT by Salamander (Curiosity *may* have killed Schrödinger's cat ......)
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To: Salamander
ability to write with my feet, pick up things as small as a dime with my toes...

Minnesota / North Dakota here.. Barefoot all summer, occassionally barefoot for breif periods in the winter... ( sauna to snowbank, and back.. )
I climbed many trees and "grabbed" branches as much with my feet as with my hands.. I could readily stand on a branch and keep my balance purely with my gripping toes, without having to resort to hands..
Likewise, picking up stones, pebbles, small branches, kittens, pups, etc.. even learned to tie a square knot with those toes..

Any kind of narrow shoe has always been uncomfortable..
And having to act "civilized" has resulted in deterioration of my skillful toes...
They seldom do any tricks any more..

23 posted on 08/25/2005 3:58:00 AM PDT by Drammach ( I AmThe Sultan of Oom Pa Pa Mow Mow.. Heed My Words..)
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To: LibWhacker
""The oldest shoes in the world are about 9,000 years old, and they're from California," said Professor Trinkaus, of Washington University in St Louis, US."

Spirit Cave Man had shoes and he is 9,400 years old and is from Nevada.

24 posted on 08/25/2005 6:12:01 AM PDT by blam
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To: Salamander
You can't actually *walk* in those and I don't care to contemplate what you *are* supposed to do in them....;))

You've got quite a vivid imagination there :)

25 posted on 08/25/2005 6:50:06 AM PDT by Quinotto (On matters of style swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Jaysun

Not a biologist or anything, but my understanding is that muscle is attached to bone by ligaments and tendons, and bone thickens at the attachment sites with exercise. The more you exercise, the thicker these attachment sites become. So they don't need to examine the muscle tissue directly to tell how heavily muscled the toes were.


26 posted on 08/25/2005 8:46:17 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker
Not a biologist or anything, but my understanding is that muscle is attached to bone by ligaments and tendons, and bone thickens at the attachment sites with exercise. The more you exercise, the thicker these attachment sites become. So they don't need to examine the muscle tissue directly to tell how heavily muscled the toes were.

Thanks for that explanation. I've never heard that but it makes sense.
27 posted on 08/25/2005 9:21:46 AM PDT by Jaysun (Democrats: We must become more effective at fooling people.)
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To: Salamander
How come nobody is studying hillbilly feet?

Cuz they prolly don't know how to find all of us. Some of us live in climates where they'd never expect.

In my formative years, unless I was in school, I was barefoot nearly year round. Thanks to that, I "evolved" the ability to write with my feet, pick up things as small as a dime with my toes [to hubby's continual amazement/amusement] and can deliver a pretty good pinch with them, if necessary....:))

LOL I remember flip flops & having to build up tolerance to them between my toes every summer. In the fall, had to go through making heels tolerate leather shoes again. Needed a pair of canvas sneaks to wear for swimming in lakes with mucky bottoms & old school shoes were still needed for roller skates.

Pinching seems to be the most common behavior. I always lost toe pinch fights with my brother, cuz his pinch was brutal. After he had children, one of the first things he always tried when one of his babies was fussy was take off their shoes. "No wonder you're unhappy." "Mommy put shoes on you." Coin on carpet, no problem. Coin on a hard floor, no longer can do. My toe writing was a little sloppier than the writing of my left hand, with my left foot the worst.

[I've deigned to wear slip-on sneaks when out in the yard now so I have become somewhat more "civilized" in my old age]...;D

Yeah, me too, but mine are sandals. Have you ever gone somewhere & forget to take any shoes? I forgot to pack any when I went out of town for my grandfather's funeral & no, I wasn't wearing any. We were in a town far from any store selling shoes. Thank goodness my aunt's sister lived in that area & she had a pair I could borrow.

I have to admit to owning some uncomfortable high heels, though no where near as pointy as the pair in that picture. If you can make it into the party wearing 'em, you can plead pain & be free of them for the rest of the night.

Is your second toe longer or shorter than your big toe? It is a known genetic variation, like the ability to curl the tongue. I always figured shorter second toes made for less useful feet.

28 posted on 08/25/2005 9:28:20 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: Salamander
How come nobody is studying hillbilly feet?

Cuz they prolly don't know how to find all of us. Some of us live in climates where they'd never expect.

In my formative years, unless I was in school, I was barefoot nearly year round. Thanks to that, I "evolved" the ability to write with my feet, pick up things as small as a dime with my toes [to hubby's continual amazement/amusement] and can deliver a pretty good pinch with them, if necessary....:))

LOL I remember flip flops & having to build up tolerance to them between my toes every summer. In the fall, had to go through making heels tolerate leather shoes again. Needed a pair of canvas sneaks to wear for swimming in lakes with mucky bottoms & old school shoes were still needed for roller skates.

Pinching seems to be the most common behavior. I always lost toe pinch fights with my brother, cuz his pinch was brutal. After he had children, one of the first things he always tried when one of his babies was fussy was take off their shoes. "No wonder you're unhappy." "Mommy put shoes on you." Coin on carpet, no problem. Coin on a hard floor, no longer can do. My toe writing was a little sloppier than the writing of my left hand, with my left foot the worst.

[I've deigned to wear slip-on sneaks when out in the yard now so I have become somewhat more "civilized" in my old age]...;D

Yeah, me too, but mine are sandals. Have you ever gone somewhere & forget to take any shoes? I forgot to pack any when I went out of town for my grandfather's funeral & no, I wasn't wearing any. We were in a town far from any store selling shoes. Thank goodness my aunt's sister lived in that area & she had a pair I could borrow.

I have to admit to owning some uncomfortable high heels, though no where near as pointy as the pair in that picture. If you can make it into the party wearing 'em, you can plead pain & be free of them for the rest of the night.

Is your second toe longer or shorter than your big toe? It is a known genetic variation, like the ability to curl the tongue. I always figured shorter second toes made for less useful feet.

29 posted on 08/25/2005 9:28:20 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: Drammach
Another one with skilled feet, though yours had a different skill set! I can't say I ever tried to tie a knot, but I know I used to always untie the dread second shoe with my toes on the opposite foot.

Second toe, longer or shorter than your big toe? (I'm checking to see if it's worthwhile to do a study. Think I'll be able to get funding? lol)
30 posted on 08/25/2005 9:35:28 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: LibWhacker

They might also check my theory that shorter toes are the result of people with long toes dying off the evolutionary ladder when their long toes overhung paleolithic footwear and stubbed their toes with killing effect.


31 posted on 08/25/2005 12:05:21 PM PDT by wildbill
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To: GoLightly

Yes, I've gone off and forgotten my shoes.
My one chance to see the Hershey chocolate factory was shot due to the fact that the snobs insisted on footwear whilst visiting.

My second toe is *way* longer than the rest.
If I curl it under I can wear a whole size smaller shoe.

[does that makes us chimps or something?]....;))

Can do the tongue curl as well.
I always looked upon those who couldn't curl their tongues as somehow "handicapped"....LOL!


32 posted on 08/25/2005 4:53:44 PM PDT by Salamander (Curiosity *may* have killed Schrödinger's cat ......)
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To: GoLightly

[and here it is as a rerun just so you won't feel odd about the double post]...;D

Yes, I've gone off and forgotten my shoes.
My one chance to see the Hershey chocolate factory was shot due to the fact that the snobs insisted on footwear whilst visiting.

My second toe is *way* longer than the rest.
If I curl it under I can wear a whole size smaller shoe.

[does that makes us chimps or something?]....;))

Can do the tongue curl as well.
I always looked upon those who couldn't curl their tongues as somehow "handicapped"....LOL!


33 posted on 08/25/2005 4:54:46 PM PDT by Salamander (Curiosity *may* have killed Schrödinger's cat ......)
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To: Salamander
LOL You are too funny! I hope your family is more patient with you about it than my ex-husband was. He had fits about me & my shoes (or lack thereof). I always looked upon those who couldn't curl their tongues as somehow "handicapped"....LOL!

I was pretty smug about it myself, until I became friend's with someone who has an even rarer tongue ability gene. She can curl hers front to back, as in, fold it back on to itself. Other kids suck their finger or thumb, she sucked the tip of her tongue. She never knew it was genetic or rare, until one of her professors brought it up in class. The prof was shocked to come across someone able to do it. Crossing my fingers, hoping my mouse doesn't go wild on me again.

34 posted on 08/25/2005 5:42:13 PM PDT by GoLightly
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To: LibWhacker

Birgenstocks?


35 posted on 08/25/2005 5:48:22 PM PDT by BunnySlippers (Be a Good Mullah Now ...)
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To: Quinotto

Are women still self-abusing themselves in this manner? (I really don't know. I'm the Anti-Fashionista, as far as this Girly-Girl stuff goes.)

I remember my Mom and her rows and rows and rows of pretty, sparkly "Party Shoes," as she called them, back in the sixties.

And then I flash forward to her IN her sixties when she had her bunions removed and had seven of her ten toes BROKEN and set with pins to straighten them out again just so she could walk unaided...

Good Golly. Give me a pair of Combat Boots any day over those instruments of torture, LOL! :)


36 posted on 08/25/2005 5:59:04 PM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

What I can tell you is that the first guy who invented shoes got laid a lot.

In other words, it only took a few hundred years for the invention of shoes to spread right across the planet.

Neanderthals were in ice age europe as early as 400,000 years ago so I imagine it happened right around this time.


37 posted on 08/25/2005 6:09:56 PM PDT by JustDoItAlways
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To: shuckmaster; blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; StayAt HomeMother; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; asp1; ...
Thanks shuckmaster for the FReemail.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

38 posted on 08/25/2005 9:51:01 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: LibWhacker

Ancient shoes....hmmmmmm.......

Those wouldn't be Red Ball Jets, would they?


39 posted on 08/25/2005 9:53:05 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: SunkenCiv

I spent several hours shoe-shopping today and couldn't find a pair that fit decently. Now I know who to blame.


40 posted on 08/25/2005 9:58:40 PM PDT by Blue Champagne (Quomodo cogis comas tuas sic videri?)
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To: SunkenCiv

Sorry I didn't ping you to this. For some reason, I thought you had pinged me here in the first place.


41 posted on 08/25/2005 10:03:07 PM PDT by GoLightly
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The Neandertals The Neandertal Enigma
The Neandertals
by Erik Trinkaus
and Pat Shipman
The Neandertal Enigma
by James Shreeve


42 posted on 08/25/2005 10:03:32 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: GoLightly

Is that the *sole* reason?


43 posted on 08/25/2005 10:06:19 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: Blue Champagne

Well, if you get blisters from ill fitting shoes, I hope they *heel*.


44 posted on 08/25/2005 10:07:16 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: LibWhacker
Bones reveal first shoe-wearers

I'd bet money it was a woman...

45 posted on 08/25/2005 10:10:29 PM PDT by Charles H. (The_r0nin) (Hwæt! Lãr biþ mæst hord, soþlïce!)
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To: Salamander
These are down right sadistic.

Shoes for bound feet, 19th century, China. They are 3 1/2 inches long!

46 posted on 08/25/2005 10:12:06 PM PDT by lizma
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To: GoLightly; Salamander
Impressive toe skills, both but, are you aquadextrous?

aquadextrous (ak'w -dek'str s). 1. (adj.) Possessing the ability to turn the bathtub faucet on and off with your toes.

47 posted on 08/25/2005 10:14:43 PM PDT by gnarledmaw (I traded freedom for security and all I got were these damned shackles.)
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To: LibWhacker

I read an article years ago that claimed ancient Romans had exceedingly long toes. I guess this guy didn't read the article or check out any Roman statues.


48 posted on 08/25/2005 10:19:45 PM PDT by lizma
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To: SunkenCiv

I feel like such a heel about it. I'll try to make sure it's the "last" time something like this happens. If I seem to be pestering you, I hope you don't assume I'm a wanton "vamp", but if you do, keep your "tongue" about it, as it would wound my "sole" & I might pound my head against a wall hard enough to raise "welts".


49 posted on 08/25/2005 10:21:00 PM PDT by GoLightly
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To: gnarledmaw
Possessing the ability to turn the bathtub faucet on and off with your toes.

LOL Is there any other way? Regulating water temperature is another part of the art.

50 posted on 08/25/2005 10:24:30 PM PDT by GoLightly
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