Posted on 06/18/2005 7:49:15 AM PDT by wdkeller
"is mainly absorbed and effective in the first 2 hours after its administration, which is the crucial time period"
LOL :) you were kind enough to place quotation marks around it......tks veddy much!
What makes you want to believe that because a drug is routinely given parenterally it cannot be absorbed thru the GI tract?
nonsense.
like I said EARLIER.....modulation
insulin orally for murder is another scenario without modulation as a consideration.....the trick would be to give enough to cause brain necrosis (as is the ultimate outcome of insulin shock untreated), and then give sugar to use up the remaining circulating insulin prior to total death by hypoxia/anoxia.......THEN call the paramedics to a patient with very significant neuron death but realistic insulin and glucose levels and NO NEEDLE MARK.
Perfect. and VERY feasible.......you are using normal therapeutic doses in every argument, and the threshold I use is quite simply "enough"......
my scenario is at LEAST as plausible as the "heart attack" nonsense, bulemia, etc spewed about......there is no evidence of any of THAT either.
fact is, I believe we will never know for sure what happened. But the universe of possibilities has yet to be fully established.
OK.....here are some snips from the page linked below them......this is really basic stuff, known for many years.....my hypothetic scenario is a lot like an insulin dependent diabetic needing a candy bar or glucose AND NOT TAKING IT.......once into a coma due to zero or near-zero blood sugar, death is certain without the assistance of others for them......an "assistant" devious enough to delay glucose past the point of brain damage but before the point of total brain damage due to anoxia(several minutes of anoxia will kill you certainly, whereas zero blood sugar is a lot slower as the brain metabolizes itself gradually)
How does insulin affect brain?
· It does not; brain cells are permeable to glucose without insulin present
· Blood glucose must be maintained at certain levels to provide energy needs of brain
· 20-50 mg/dl causes hypoglycemic shock (progressive nervous irritability, fainting, convulsions, and finally, coma)
· In response to low blood glucose, hypothalamus causes secretion of epinephrine, which causes breakdown of glycogen (in liver) and fats (in adipose tissue)
What hyperinsulinism and insulin shock?
· HI is increased insulin production, caused by adenoma (glandular tumor) of pancreas
· Causes low blood glucose levels and depression of CNS metabolism
· Insulin shock may also be caused by overdose of insulin
· Symptoms include excitability of CNS, hallucinations, nervousness, trembling, sweating
· Even lower blood glucose leads to convulsions, loss of consciousness, and coma
· How to distinguish between diabetic coma and insulin shock coma? Acetone breath and deep breathing in diabetic coma only
· Treat insulin shock with large quantities of glucose (works in a minute or so) or administer glucagons, which breaks down glycogen in liver
forgot to mention above.....insulin forces circulating glyco's into all or nearly all body cell but the brain,,,,,are we in agreement on this?
forgot the link, too.....
http://www.bio.davidson.edu/Courses/bio112/112cp/insdiab.html
It's the same old crap from the liberals. It's the same old line that they use about abortion. You know, "abortion is no big deal, it's just a blob of tissue". Then, when someone describes abortion or shows pictures, the libs are all horrified and demand that folks stop showing this stuff!
They know what a horrific thing was done here. The sad thing about it is that the libs don't see anything wrong with this savagery. It's kind of like they're saying "it's awful, but it needed to be done, she deserved it".
Sick and repulsive people without any conscience.
here's a snip from a paper on therapeutic insulin coma.....the terminology is apropos for our little discussion......keep in mind that earlier I said "ENOUGH" when referring to the dose for my scenario......this paper discusses dosages that respect the well-being of the patient...unlike my hypothesis of what might have happened. see "Hypoglycemic encephalopathy".
"Death - occurred in approximately .75% of patients. Hypoglycemic encephalopathy is the most common cause, but other causes of death included heart failure and aspiration pneumonia."
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1397000
here's a little paper on Hypoglycemic Encephalopathy
.......I trust you will appreciate the last words before I snipped it, but you mat want to read the entire paper.....in fact I recommend you do so before we carry our little discussion any further.....
Basic Neurochemistry Part Five. Metabolism 38. Metabolic Encephalopathies
Hypoglycemic Encephalopathy
Hypoglycemia usually results from insulin overdose, hepatic disease resulting in decreased hepatic gluconeogenesis or renal disease
Hypoglycemia is sometimes encountered in other medical conditions, such as malignancies and chronic alcoholism. Early clinical signs in hypoglycemia reflect the appearance of physiological protective mechanisms initiated by hypothalamic sensory nuclei [1]. Such symptoms include sweating, also termed diaphoresis, tachycardia, anxiety and hunger. If unheeded, these symptoms give way to a more serious CNS disorder progressing through confusion, lethargy and delirium followed by seizures and coma. Prolonged hypoglycemia may lead to irreversible brain damage.
During the progression of hypoglycemic encephalopathy, as blood glucose falls below 2.5 mm, a stage at which confusion and delirium occur, the cerebral metabolic rate for glucose (CMRglc) falls more rapidly than does the cerebral metabolic rate for oxygen (CMRO2), a finding which signifies the utilization of substrates other than glucose by the brain.........snipped
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?rid=bnchm.section.2723
one last snip from the link at the post above:
"As hypoglycemia progresses below 1mm, the EEG becomes isoelectric and neuronal cell death ensues. As is the case in some other metabolic encephalopathies, cell death is not global in distribution; rather, certain brain structures, in particular hippocampal and cortical structures, are selectively vulnerable to hypoglycemic insult."
cortical structures
I'm sorry, you're so much smarter than I am that you just refuse get it. Returning to your nonsensical "oral" claim at this point makes it plain that you just don't want to get it. So I agree to disagree and also to carry on this discussion with you no further.
"I asked for scientific back-up for your theory"
I have given it.........your determination to proclaim Schiavo innocent is underwhelming, esp when I've made no accusation. What you have done is make up a "fact" which is easily shown to be false.
The paper on hypoglycemic encephalopathy and the approval and marketing of oral insulin dispensers make you quite wrong.....is THAT the part you don't get?
Seriously, run along now. I'm finished with your frivolity.
you simply cannot stop, can you, LOL
"regular" parenteral insulin acts fast, and has been easily available here for many many years......I never so much as implied that schiavo would or could have used the oral commercial preparation....I merely used the facts of oral administration to counter your frivolous claim that insulin is not absorbed thusly.
Now go find someone else to practice your "facts" and ignorance on. Its not working on me.
I tend to think that you're correct.
I'm ashamed to say that this is bordering on harassment. They didn't get the result they wanted from the autopsy, so they grasp at this straw. It's totally inappropriate for the governor to be doing this, not to mention an absurd waste of taxpayer money.
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