Posted on 05/01/2005 10:34:32 AM PDT by aculeus
THE Vietnam War is universally regarded as a disaster for what it did to the American and Vietnamese people. However, 30 years after the war's end, the reasons for its outcome remain a matter of dispute.
The most popular explanation among historians and journalists is that the defeat was a result of American policy makers' cold-war-driven misunderstanding of North Vietnam's leaders as dangerous Communists. In truth, they argue, we were fighting a nationalist movement with great popular support. In this view, "our side," South Vietnam, was a creation of foreigners and led by a corrupt urban elite with no popular roots. Hence it could never prevail, not even with a half-million American troops, making the war "unwinnable."
This simple explanation is repudiated by powerful historical evidence, both old and new. Its proponents mistakenly base their conclusions on the situation in Vietnam during the 1950's and early 1960's and ignore the changing course of the war (notably, the increasing success of President Richard Nixon's Vietnamization strategy) and the evolution of South Vietnamese society (in particular the introduction of agrarian reforms).
For all the claims of popular support for the Vietcong insurgency, far more South Vietnamese peasants fought on the side of Saigon than on the side of Hanoi. The Vietcong were basically defeated by the beginning of 1972, which is why the North Vietnamese launched a huge conventional offensive at the end of March that year. During the Easter Offensive of 1972 - at the time the biggest campaign of the war - the South Vietnamese Army was able to hold onto every one of the 44 provincial capitals except Quang Tri, which it regained a few months later. The South Vietnamese relied on American air support during that offensive.
If the United States had provided that level of support in 1975, when South Vietnam collapsed in the face of another North Vietnamese offensive, the outcome might have been at least the same as in 1972. But intense lobbying of Congress by the antiwar movement, especially in the context of the Watergate scandal, helped to drive cutbacks of American aid in 1974. Combined with the impact of the world oil crisis and inflation of 1973-74, the results were devastating for the south. As the triumphant North Vietnamese commander, Gen. Van Tien Dung, wrote later, President Nguyen Van Thieu of South Vietnam was forced to fight "a poor man's war."
Even Hanoi's main patron, the Soviet Union, was convinced that a North Vietnamese military victory was highly unlikely. Evidence from Soviet Communist Party archives suggests that, until 1974, Soviet military intelligence analysts and diplomats never believed that the North Vietnamese would be victorious on the battlefield. Only political and diplomatic efforts could succeed. Moscow thought that the South Vietnamese government was strong enough to defend itself with a continuation of American logistical support. The former Soviet chargé d'affaires in Hanoi during the 1970's told me in Moscow in late 1993 that if one looked at the balance of forces, one could not predict that the South would be defeated. Until 1975, Moscow was not only impressed by American military power and political will, it also clearly had no desire to go to war with the United States over Vietnam. But after 1975, Soviet fear of the United States dissipated.
During the war the Soviets despised their North Vietnamese "friends" (the term of confidential bureaucratic reference, rather than "comrades"). Indeed, Henry A. Kissinger's accounts of his dealings, as Nixon's national security adviser, with President Thieu are models of respect when compared with the bitter Soviet accounts of their difficulties with their counterparts.
In secret internal reports, Hanoi-based Soviet diplomats regularly complained about the deceitfulness of the North Vietnamese, who concealed strategic planning from their more powerful patron. In a 1972 report to Moscow, the Soviet ambassador even complained that although Marshal Pavel Batitsky, commander of the Soviet Air Defense Forces, had visited Hanoi earlier that year and completed a major military aid agreement, North Vietnamese leaders did not inform him of the imminent launch date of their Easter Offensive.
What is also clear from Soviet archival sources is that those who believed that North Vietnam had more than national unification on its mind were right: Its leaders were imbued with a sense of their ideological mission - not only to unify Vietnam under Communist Party rule, but also to support the victory of Communists in other nations. They saw themselves as the outpost of world revolution in Southeast Asia and desired to help Communists in Cambodia, Laos, Thailand and elsewhere.
Soviet archives show that after the war ended in 1975, with American power in retreat, Hanoi used part of its captured American arsenal to support Communist revolutions around the world. In 1980 some of these weapons were shipped via Cuba to El Salvador. This dimension of Vietnamese behavior derived from a deep commitment to the messianic internationalism of Marxist-Leninist ideology.
Vietnam today is not the North Vietnam of 1955, 1965 or 1975. Like post-Mao China it has retreated from totalitarianism to authoritarianism. It has reformed its economy and its foreign policy to become more integrated into the world. But those changes were not inevitable and would not necessarily have occurred had Mikhail Gorbachev not ascended to power in Moscow, and had the Soviet Union and its empire not collapsed. Nor would these changes necessarily have occurred had China not provided a new cultural model for Vietnam to follow, as it has for centuries.
Precisely because Vietnam has changed for the better, we need to recognize what a profoundly ideological and aggressive totalitarian regime we faced three, four and five decades ago. And out of respect for the evidence of history, we need to recognize what happened in the 1970's and why.
In 1974-75, the United States snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. Hundreds of thousands of our Vietnamese allies were incarcerated, and more than a million driven into exile. The awesome image of the United States was diminished, and its enemies were thereby emboldened, drawing the United States into new conflicts by proxy in Afghanistan, Africa and Latin America. And the bitterness of so many American war veterans, who saw their sacrifices so casually demeaned and unnecessarily squandered, haunts American society and political life to this day.
Stephen J. Morris, a fellow at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies, is writing a book on the Vietnam War in the Nixon years.
Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
Agreed.
The lefties in Congress who did that have much innocent blood on their hands. It is truly shocking that some of them are still in Congrress today!
(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
Ping for later reading
The democrats believed/believe that our Vietnamese allies were nothing more than property to be disposed of by their keepers in any way they saw fit. They're not opposed to dictatorships because that's the only way they can stamp out the concept of the individual...but killing them
The Democrats undid the election of 1972 and tossed the Republican party into exile. 1974-80 were dark years for this country at home and abroad. It was a time the Democrats ran the show.
The squealed like castrated pigs when the Gipper stomped them in 1980.
The New York Times, and their lot were partially to blame for the loss. They did everything they could to demean the war effort.
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That combined with Lyndon Johnson's gross mismanagement and lack of principles was the deathblow for the Vietnam War. Their behavior was absolutely disgraceful and gave the liberal anti-war scum a victory beyond their wildest dreams.
Nowadays, they point to Vietnam and say, "See, nation-building is impossible. Winning against an insurgency is impossible." Their answer to tyrants like Saddam Hussein, Idi Amin, the Khmer Rouge, and Rwanda is to do some token bitching, send them money, and kowtow to their murderous deeds because Vietnam "proved" that such intervention is morally wrong and impossible to change. Liberals are truly disgusting.
(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
And they're trying to do the same thing with Iraq. People are onto them and it's not working today. The MSM was the gold standard then. Now they're the crumbling example of what is wrong with America and a LOT of people know it!
Many thousands more must have died trying to escape by sea, but I would assume there is no way to tell how many--people who died on unseaworthy boats (like Elian Gonzalez's mother did trying to get away from another Communist paradise).
The moral to this story is, that America called these brave men to defend our country, from the communist's ambitions. All gave some, some gave all. Each is owed a debt of gratitude by our nation and every one of us who enjoys the freedoms that are their legacy. God bless them all. End of story.
Yes, but for obvious reasons the Vietnamese government is not helping out. The best estimates I've seen put the numbers at several million between 1975 and 1982. The exact number will never be known, I'm afraid.
Wasn't Sen Kerry of Mass. one of those Viet Nam war criminals?
The exact same thing they are doing now.
It's amazing anyone would consider the NY Times printing a legitimate story. They haven't in the past, and they mislead now. The US military were winning the war in Vietnam. What we lost was the peace after bugging out and failing to support the South Vietnamese afterwards. That support was expressly stopped by Democrats in congress.
"And the one responsible for maligning our nation's Vietnam War Vets was nominated by his party last year to be its presidential nominee."
Yes, and they thought they'd get away with it. God Bless John O'Neil and the Swift Boat Vets for bursting that bubble!
(Denny Crane: "Sometimes you can only look for answers from God and failing that... and Fox News".)
We did win the war. The North simply invaded in violation of a treaty.
When they came home, other members of their own generation who were too enlightened to fight spat on, shat on, and slandered them. The elected officials who had hung the vets out to dry, then had the unmitigated gall to solicit their votes, which, with a drop in the voting age, gave the left side of the boomer generation unprecedented power.
The height of esteem in which I hold our Viet Nam veterans is matched only by the depth of my contempt for the protestors. The ideological left is never any good for America, but with the numbers and power they had in this era, they did to American Culture and Society what a swarm of locusts does to a corn field.
The vast majority of contemporary American maladies, be they economic, spiritual, moral or cultural can be laid directly in the lap of the 60's-70's left.
Ronald Reagan, ending the Fairness Doctrine, gave the Rush Limbaugh's of the world an open forum and helped lead to the success of FOX, the Internet and the blogs that began filling in the blanks. Today, the propaganda arm of the left is in a downfall as more people realize how biased and inaccurate they have been for years, and only honest reporting will go unscathed in the future. < /rant > (Sorry)
for later read
bump!
That's my explanation for the current "we support the troops" lie mouthed by the anti-war crowd.
They know vets and their relatives will vote for the rest of their lives and try to cover their anti-Americanism with that trite lie.
I agree the Vietnam War could have ended in a "victory", if the United States had used all its military power early in the conflict.
Two factors worked against that: the demand that the US keep large conventional forces committed to NATO and poor leadership, both civilian and military.
Tragedy flowed from both factors.
Kerry, Fonda, Chomsky and Ramsey Clark should have gone through the "re-education" prison camps of post-war Viet Nam. That is their pro-communist legacy. They should be ashamed to show their faces in public for what they did to Viet Nam and America.
I believe morethan one million people died in the "killing fields" -- I suppose this is not a large enough number of bodies for Morris/NYT to mention. Just as they don't mention the millions dead by Mao's cultural revolution that set the authoritarian stage for what is modern day China. The thrust of this article is that Vietnam is imitating China. That is BAD news.
And .. they've tried to do the same in Iraq - which produced the famous "I voted for it before I voted against it" statement from Kerry.
Is there a statute of limitations timetable on treason?
So now, the traitors of that era want us to recognize communist VN today. Fine. But . .
Precisely because Vietnam has changed for the better, we need to recognize what a profoundly ideological and aggressive totalitarian regime we faced three, four and five decades ago. And out of respect for the evidence of history, we need to recognize what happened in the 1970's and why.
(We need to start at least as early as the 1968 Tet Offensive.)
What the author writes was not unknown at the time.
But the American Press had its eye on the General Giap coveted "Most Valuable Guerrilla" award and they were not to be denied that award.
I say that given the extra years, the tens of thousands of needless deaths of our military and our allied military dead and VN's civilian dead the press scum of that era, the political scum of that era, the academic scum of that era, the Hollywood scum of that era should all be tried for treason.
North Viet Nam's most trusted man in America, Walter Cronkite, spooked LBJ with his distorted reporting to the American public beginning in 1968.
I did not serve in Viet Nam and I am not an expert but IMO had LBJ backed U.S. military requests as our troops virtually annihilated the Viet Cong the North clearly would have started serious peace talks -- just as their post war writings admit. But good 'ol Walter, et al. went to work for their Ho in Hanoi.
Same goes for a large part of the media, congress and academia.
Bookmark for later reading
Admitting they were wrong is never going to happen because their view of history is sealed in their minds as accurate no matter what or how much proof is provided. This is why the Democrats today are so over the top with their hatred. They are convinced in their philosophy and believe they are anointed (ala Thomas Sowell) to lead us because the rest of America is too stupid and incapable of understanding the truth as they know it. Democrat condensation is apparent at every turn and they only remain as a major party because groups like the teachers unions, and minorities such as the majority of the black community, think these guys support them, when in fact the Democrats could care less. They are only interested in the power they can wield over others.
That's not ranting, that's good information. Thanks.
If you lived through that time beginning immediately after the left attempted to blame the emerging modern conservative movement for JFK's assassination through the end of the "Fairness Doctrine" and the beginning of modern talk radio then it is easy to see how very important it is to remember. Never again!
Agreed, as should many in the press corps, and the MSM today.
It was blamed on conservatives, White Southerners, and gun nuts. Oddly enough, it still is to some degree.
Actually, Lee Harvey Oswald technically was a White Southerner but with a world view exactly the opposite of most.
I was a radar navigator on B-52s during the late 60's-early 70's. We could have won the war in two week or so. By bombing the dike systems on the Red River during monsoon season, North Vietnam would have been under water. Game over!
Ping
From:
http://www.neoperspectives.com/kerryvietnam.htm
Prior to 1975 the North Vietnamese Communists had already killed between 50,000-100,000 of their own citizens in purges, terrors and 'land reforms'. (3) Upon reuniting their country, the North Vietnamese killed or sent to labor camps hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese citizens. Millions of refugees have since fled Vietnam. Known as 'the boat people', they sought refuge wherever they could. At least 100,000 people drowned fleeing the Communists. Others were attacked by pirates, or were repatriated to the hellish labor camps of Vietnam. Today, over 1.2 million South Vietnamese refugees live in the United States. Yet Kerry seemed to believe the primary threat to the Vietnamese people was that posed by the armed forces of the United States.
In December 1975, just months after Saigon fell, the government of neighboring Laos fell to a Vietnamese backed Communist force. Hundreds of thousands were killed in war, famine and political assassination (3). The Hmong tribespeople, loyal American allies before the pullout, were decimated, an estimated ten per cent of them were killed by Communist forces. (6)
On April 17th, 1975 the Khmer Rouge, a Communist guerrilla group led by Pol Pot, overthrew the US backed government (weakened by the US withdrawal) with the help of the North Vietnamese government and China. They forced all city dwellers into the countryside and to labor camps. During their rule, it is estimated that 2 million Cambodians died by starvation, torture or execution. 2 million Cambodians represented approximately 30% of the Cambodian population during that time. (7)
In sum, the American withdrawal left over 3 million dead and caused millions more to flee their homes. Today South East Asia is still impoverished and undemocratic. Growing up, we are taught that the 'domino effect' was a foolish, flawed theory. In reality, it was a perfect predictor of what came to pass. South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia fell to the Communists within a year. Burma battled Communists insurgencies, even while embarking on an even harsher form of socialism that starved it's population. Communist insurgencies, although not ultimately successful, increased in intensity in Thailand. It's possible that Communism could have spread even further and the insurgencies been more successful if the newly formed Communist nations hadn't turned on each other in another orgy of violence.
As these events unfolded, America suffered a terrible weakening of our national pride and our moral leadership in the world was shaken. We were not defeated on the battlefield, we were defeated by weak national leadership and by public opinion here at home.
From http://www.neoperspectives.com/kerryconclusion.htm
Communism is the greatest evil that man has ever known. It is responsible for more than 100 millions deaths (more than all the wars in history combined), millions and millions of refugees and the subjugation and slavery of over 2 billion people since WWII. Communist regimes always follow a similar pattern. A Communist regime has never been elected, so first Communists must orchestrate a revolution, often with the support of funding from preexisting Communist regime. Next, Communists dissolve private property, nationalize media and begin a brutal purge of political prisoners and the upper classes. To conduct it's class warfare and maintain control of the revolting people, the state will militarize, establish a large secret police presence, and create horrific labor/reeducation camps. The economy collapses, failed farm policies result in starvation, refugees flee, and the government begins to export Communist revolution abroad. How far the government is willing to push the Communist philosophy will directly equate with the severity of these events and the suffering of their people. This exact pattern has come to pass in the Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, North Korea, Angola, Eastern Europe, Yugoslavia, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Cuba. A few countries on this list have not experienced the true hell of Communism because the governments either didn't last long enough to take full root, or total Communist policies were not pursued in earnest. (67)
read later
Yes, Yes and Yes. What was even worse they had to make the sacrifice of so many of my friends meaningless and continue to do so. Traitors through and through.
Yep, I did. I've been around that long but don't let it out. Heck, I even wore an "I Like Ike" button once upon a time.
Oh, now the NYT figures it out. Decades after the fact, of course. Thanks. Thanks a lot.
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