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An Ancient Masterpiece or a Master's Forgery? (Did by Michelangelo Sculpt the Laocoön?)
New York Times ^ | April 18, 2005 | KATHRYN SHATTUCK

Posted on 04/19/2005 12:08:30 AM PDT by nickcarraway

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The sculpture "Laocoön," at the Vatican Museums, was unearthed in 1506, but a new theory says it is a forgery by Michelangelo.


Lynn Catterson, the Columbia art historian who has suggested that the sculpture "Laocoön" is a forgery perpetrated by Michelangelo.

1 posted on 04/19/2005 12:08:30 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway

Let me be the first to ask: Who cares?


2 posted on 04/19/2005 12:12:28 AM PDT by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: nickcarraway
The whole "xyz is a forgery" is usually to win publicity for obscure post-grads (usually Americans) and boost their publishability.

It is a tough job to ascribe dates to sculptures or other blocks of stone so it's all guesswork.

The fact is, the 'art' industry has done a nice sideline in forgery for as long as it has existed - you name it - sculpture, paintings, furniture, documents. There is simply too much money involved for any of them to retain their integrity. Sometimes a famous work is 'outed', like the Portland Vase or the Turin Shroud, but with the rest you just never know.

So the answer is 100% "mebbe, mebbe not"
3 posted on 04/19/2005 1:21:01 AM PDT by PzGr43
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To: nickcarraway

The sculpture is fake but accurate.


4 posted on 04/19/2005 1:26:33 AM PDT by WestVirginiaRebel (Carnac: A siren, a baby and a liberal. Answer: Name three things that whine.)
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To: clee1

I don't care very much, because it's a pretty bad work of sculpture. However, I also think it's genuine. Look at the feet of the three figures. They all show a wide separation between big toe and second toe. That's typical of Antique sculpture, because people wore sandals with a thong between the toes, which shaped the gap, and the sculptors copied the feature they saw in real life.


5 posted on 04/19/2005 1:26:53 AM PDT by John Locke
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To: John Locke

Me either, but not because of its esthetic qualities, or the lack thereof.

I just cannot get worked up about a debate of whether an "antique" sculpture is a fake done in the 1500's. Even if it is a "fake", isn't it still an antique?

What are they gonna do: dig up Michaelangelo and sue him?

Come on. Don't the academics have anything better to do?


6 posted on 04/19/2005 1:35:22 AM PDT by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: clee1
Because it's 8ft, could be hundreds rather than a thousand or more years ago. It's a fairly great work... It's HISTORY, dang it and a might bit better than the "Piss Christ" or elephant dung Madonna of our times.


7 posted on 04/19/2005 2:11:00 AM PDT by newzjunkey (Demand Mexico Turnover Fugitive Murderers: http://www.escapingjustice.com)
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To: newzjunkey

8 posted on 04/19/2005 2:16:04 AM PDT by newzjunkey (Demand Mexico Turnover Fugitive Murderers: http://www.escapingjustice.com)
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To: nickcarraway

Memories ... I guess I will just have to go back to Rome to see te new Pope and the sites again ;)


9 posted on 04/19/2005 2:20:03 AM PDT by Deetes (Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick)
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To: clee1; gobucks
PING to gobucks

Believe it or not....:)

10 posted on 04/19/2005 3:47:56 AM PDT by 1john2 3and4
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To: 1john2 3and4

I am stunned. I had just changed my tag line in the last couple of weeks, the one I have used since I started this ride in Freeper land ... but I guess this is a ... ahem ... warning to me.


Funny ...... not one single word about the motive behind why Laocoon and his sons were killed.


11 posted on 04/19/2005 4:35:14 AM PDT by gobucks ("I do not believe in a personal God" Albert Einstein - March, 1954.)
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To: nickcarraway

Well, after all this time, I thought my tag line was useless, and so I had changed it. And then, you thoughtfully posted this gem ....

What on earth possesed you to post this article (and thanks for the 'warning'! - tag line is back to its orginal!)


12 posted on 04/19/2005 4:37:46 AM PDT by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/Laocoon.jpg)
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To: clee1

So, who cares? I care. Mostly because there is something perfectly accurate about what the story of this Priest says about the human mind and heart. I care also for this reason: I had to be years in corp america, long after college before someone recommended to me the book the "march of folly" by Tuchman. It was there I read about Laocoon. Tuchman, a standard secularist, rationalist, liberal, makes a good review of what 'folly' is through history. But I had never heard of this character in school. And after reading that book, a flaw, a bona fide flaw in the American Character I care about revealing at every chance I get.


This scene depicts the death of Laocoon and his sons. Laocoon was a Trojan priest of Apollo but was praying to Poseidon at the time of his demise. He was the one who coined the phrase "I fear the Greeks even bearing gifts."


Laocoon came into the light at the end of the Trojan War when there was a disagreement about what to do with the wooden horse. The priest bravely attempted to remind the Trojans about the cunning Greeks and how they wouldn't be the type of people to give up. He even threw a spear into the horse which gave a hollow sound.



Poor Laocoon met his demise when he was praying to Poseidon and two snakes (ironically sent by Poseidon) from the island of Tenedos (again ironically where the Greek ships were hidden) came and squeezed him and his two sons to death.

from: http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/laocoon.htm

Laocoon failed to get the attention of the Trojans. He really tried, (some say he even threw a spear at that wooden horse) but he and his two sons paid with their lives for their efforts. The Greeks of course won this particular fight. But, it doesn't always have to turn out this way.

Why did I pick a messenger that was ignored, a messenger whose warnings did nothing to stave off the destruction of Troy? Why pick him - he got himself killed along w/ his sons? Because, although publik skhools taught me about Helen of Troy, they didn't say a word about Laocoon. They should have, for there is a bigger lesson than the fact that a pretty woman can make men behave irrationally. That lesson is that people seem WIRED to ignore warnings ... and destroy the warner.

Despite that reality, warnings sometimes do indeed help; even though its really uncomfortable, some folks do actually listen and a few even heed. I sort of felt sympathy for the Trojans, in the same way I feel sympathy for us here in the USA. Still, too many of us are just too comfortable to listen. But after 9-11, times are changing I think.

From "gobucks" freeper home page.


13 posted on 04/19/2005 4:44:20 AM PDT by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/Laocoon.htm)
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To: clee1
. . .Who cares?

Well, I care. So do a lot of other people who are interested in history, art, and the development of our Western culture. It's worthwhile to know what Michelangelo achieved.

What are they gonna do: dig up Michaelangelo and sue him?

That's not the point. The point is to better understand the life and work of one of the greatest artists our species has ever produced.

Come on. Don't the academics have anything better to do?

No. That's what academics do. And studying art, expanding our knowledge of art and its history, is not a bad thing to do with one's life. I think that what this scholar has done is valuable.

14 posted on 04/19/2005 5:43:32 AM PDT by Capriole (I don't have any problems that couldn't be solved by more chocolate or more ammunition)
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To: Capriole

I think what this "scholar" has done is shameless self-promotion and whose hypothesis will never be proven to everyones satisfaction.


15 posted on 04/19/2005 5:49:52 AM PDT by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: Sam Cree

ping


16 posted on 04/19/2005 5:58:57 AM PDT by Varda
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To: clee1
I think what this "scholar" has done is shameless self-promotion and whose hypothesis will never be proven to everyones satisfaction.

By that logic no academic could ever publish a new idea.

Since you say you do not care, why are you reading such a thread, posting about it, and arguing the concept?

17 posted on 04/19/2005 6:01:53 AM PDT by Capriole (I don't have any problems that couldn't be solved by more chocolate or more ammunition)
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To: Capriole

Good point. Good day. :)


18 posted on 04/19/2005 6:27:31 AM PDT by clee1 (We use 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, and 2 to pull a trigger. I'm lazy and I'm tired of smiling.)
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To: clee1
Come on. Don't the academics have anything better to do?

NO!

19 posted on 04/19/2005 7:17:05 AM PDT by Don Corleone (Leave the gun..take the cannoli)
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To: Liz; Joe 6-pack; woofie; vannrox; giotto; iceskater; Conspiracy Guy; B Knotts; Dolphy; ...

Liz, you already posted this on the other thread, but we may as well exercise our new art ping list.

Anyone who wants on or off the art ping list, let me know.

Also, I am trying to form a freeper art gallery thread, on which artistic freepers can exhibit and discuss their artwork. Please let me know if you'd like to be on that ping list or would like to exhibit.

Thanks.


20 posted on 04/19/2005 9:57:13 AM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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