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Judge Roy Moore and the Myth of the Separation Clause
ChronWatch ^ | April 15, 2005 | Christian Hartsock

Posted on 04/15/2005 4:56:59 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe

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To: risk
If a judge says that he thinks his law books are a proper superset of the 10 commandments

Source?

21 posted on 04/15/2005 6:44:58 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Explicitly, Jefferson wrote: "[the] wall of separation between church and state...is a one-directional wall. It keeps the government from running the church, but makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government."

The context sort of changes a potload (that's a technical term) of judicial holdings. That is, it renders them WRONG. In error.

Shuffling off to find independent corroboration ...

22 posted on 04/15/2005 6:49:02 PM PDT by Cboldt
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To: risk
Roy Moore's 1st amend. rights didn't end when he donned the black robe.
All judges will have at some point a personal aversion to some aspect of a case, probably many times throughout their career on the bench. The good ones will still follow the law, not their own personal opinion.
23 posted on 04/15/2005 6:49:09 PM PDT by jla
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To: jla
Roy Moore's 1st amend. rights didn't end when he donned the black robe.

You're forgetting that he was a member of government, and not a private citizen protected from government. The separation of church and state is not intended to protect the government, it's intended to protect people from individual abuses of power. He was seen to have abused power by citizens who successfully carried their case against him through the courts. Because he made false claims about the nature of our laws, I agree that he should have been censured.

24 posted on 04/15/2005 6:52:21 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk

What "separation of church and state" are you referring to? Where did you learn of this notion? It must be fairly new as I've not ever heard of it.


25 posted on 04/15/2005 6:56:34 PM PDT by jla
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To: jla

Read the link I posed to Alabama's constitution. Interpret it in plain English. Alabama excludes the preference for or support for a particular religion in any way by law.


26 posted on 04/15/2005 6:58:53 PM PDT by risk
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To: gbcdoj
Jefferson did write the letter twelve years after the ratification of the Bill of Rights. In fact if one wished to go deeper, the phrase " Separation of Church and State" was not the brainchild of Thomas Jefferson.
Read about James Madison and find where the phrase "Separation of Church and State" came from and why?
The whole idea of the Amendment One (1) was to protect the people from the government not the government from the people. The Amendment itself is very self-explanatory. Furthermore, this particular case had been brought before the Justices time and time again but to no avail. Unfortunately, the courts were ripe for the picking after FDR and a precedent setting travesty took place that has taken on the power of a run away Mac truck.
27 posted on 04/15/2005 7:00:39 PM PDT by Paige ("Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." --George Washington)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Bump!


28 posted on 04/15/2005 7:05:37 PM PDT by The Mayor ( Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, and whose hope is the Lord)
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Jefferson also almost certainly did not, as some Christian-nation mythologists like David Barton have claimed, give a speech or write a letter asserting that the wall was intended to be only a one-way wall protecting churches from government but not vice versa. The alleged Jeffersonian words were "That wall is a one directional wall. It keeps the government from running the church but it makes sure that Christian principles will always stay in government." That purported wording is repeated by many Christian-nation mythmakers, but no evidence at all can be found for it, and it is wildly inconsistent with extensive writings known with certainty to be Jefferson's.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/shb/buckner_18_1.html

Oops. Looks like the "one-directional wall" phrase is not Jefferson's. Not to worry though.

Among more scholarly critics, Robert L. Cord, in his book, Separation of Church and State, calls the view of Justice Black--that "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state" and that it "must be kept high and impregnable"--mere "lines of fiction." Moreover, a figure no less than the Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, William A. Rehnquist, holds similar views. For Rehnquist, Black's use of Jefferson's metaphor is a serious distortion of the true purpose of the Founding Fathers. The "wall" is, says Rehnquist, a "faulty" premise upon which Everson and a host of succeeding cases have been wrongly decided. In his dissent in Wallace v. Jaffree, a 1985 case which disallowed a moment of silence for "prayer or meditation" in Alabama's public schools, Rehnquist expressed his regret that the Establishment Clause had been "expressly freighted with Jefferson's misleading metaphor for nearly forty years." Rehnquist argued for a purpose in the religion clauses "far different" from the highly simplified "wall of separation between church and state." The purpose of the Establishment Clause, he argued, was more limited than what the Supreme Court had traditionally held:

It forbade establishment of a national religion, and forbade preference among religious sects or denominations. . . . The Establishment Clause did not require government neutrality between religion nor did it prohibit the federal government from providing nondiscriminatory aid to religion. There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the Framers intended to build the "wall of separation" that was constitutionalized in Everson.

Rehnquist then concluded: "The `wall of separation between church and state' is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned."

'Wall Of Separation' Metaphor By Derek H. Davis <--

That second link is a well written article. I'm no student of history, and won'tvouch for its accuracy, but I did enjoy reading it.
29 posted on 04/15/2005 7:05:44 PM PDT by Cboldt
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To: risk
Alabama excludes the preference for or support for a particular religion in any way by law.

AFAIK, Moore was not accused of any improper application of state or federal law to a case in his courtroom.

30 posted on 04/15/2005 7:08:58 PM PDT by Cboldt
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To: risk
You read it and focus more on the bold type-

preference for or support for a particular religion in any way by law.

Now show me where Roy Moore ever attempted, let alone wished, to pass a law making the Ten Commandments paramount to any other religious dogma.

31 posted on 04/15/2005 7:09:03 PM PDT by jla
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To: Cboldt

No, but citizens did argue successfully that they did not feel that he could uphold the law impartially.


32 posted on 04/15/2005 7:09:41 PM PDT by risk
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To: jla

Not necessary. He's already been impeached, unanimously I might add, by his own state's judicial ethics commission.


33 posted on 04/15/2005 7:10:29 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
No, but citizens did argue successfully that they did not feel that he could uphold the law impartially.

There is no need to argue feelings. A person can assert they have certain feelings, and it --is-- so. But no case of Moore's was challenged (let alone beat) as being improperly decided due to his personal adherance to Judeo-Christian principles. In court, he applied the laws of the state and the laws of the country. It's all there in black and white.

34 posted on 04/15/2005 7:14:10 PM PDT by Cboldt
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To: risk
He was impeached because he wouldn't follow the erroneous edict of one Myron Thompson, United States District Social Engineer Judge.
35 posted on 04/15/2005 7:22:14 PM PDT by jla
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To: Cboldt

Roy Moore will be the next Alabama Governor if he wants the job!!!


36 posted on 04/15/2005 7:24:55 PM PDT by southland
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To: Tailgunner Joe


37 posted on 04/15/2005 7:26:07 PM PDT by satchmodog9 (Murder and weather are our only news)
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To: jla
I think it was Moore who was doing the social engineering. He thought that if he could only setup a case that he could propagandize effectively enough, he could start a national movement. He sort of did, but I don't think it went very far. He said too many bizarre things. Did you know that he appeared on the shortwave program "Scriptures for America" with Pastor Peter J. Peters of the Church of Christ of Laporte, Colorado? It's a Christian identity church that preaches that Jews are the offspring of Satan and that minorities are subhuman. I realize this is guilt by association, but the guy constantly did and said things like that which invited criticism.
38 posted on 04/15/2005 7:28:32 PM PDT by risk
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To: Cboldt
I don't know about the authenticity of the quote, but what it says is definitely true.

The Constitution forbids the government from interfering with religion. It does not restrict the religious from influencing government. Jefferson opposed such "religious tests" in politics.

39 posted on 04/15/2005 7:32:31 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
I don't know about the authenticity of the quote, but what it says is definitely true.

The "one-directional" part of the quote is not authentic. And based on the articles cited, I think it also doesn't represent Jefferson's sentiments. He didn't want the government involved in running a church, and he didn't want an organized church running the government.

The Constitution forbids the government from interfering with religion. It does not restrict the religious from influencing government.

I'm sure he would agree with both of those. Many 1st amendment decsions, with a genesis at Everson, are based on a gross misconstruction.

40 posted on 04/15/2005 7:40:47 PM PDT by Cboldt
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