Posted on 04/08/2005 7:21:11 PM PDT by LibWhacker
You assume way too much... the Bible does not call people saints only those who are already dead and in heaven...the saints were those within the congregation of believers. Yes there are saints in heaven...but they were saints HERE first. The Bible talks about intercession for the saints. Now if the saints are only those who have already made it to heaven...why would they need intercession?. Intercession ( prayer) is made for those who are still vulnerable to sin. Saints who have made it to heaven do not continue under the threat of sin..as heaven is a sinless place.
In Philemon it talks about refreshing the hearts of the saints...saints who are in the presence of God need no refreshing...for He is their refreshing...it comes with the package. The saints here, who battle sin on a daily basis are always in need of refreshing.
The only way to heaven is through the blood of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice...please do not assume that I believe that some guys in Rome need to make you a saint in order for you to go to heaven...that is foolishness.
My understanding of confession and the remission of my sins is not flawed either. The Bible clearly teaches that we must confess our sins to the Father in heaven...it does not say to go to a confessional and tell only the parish priest and then go say some dry repititious prayers at the altar. Confession must come from the heart and be heartfelt. Prayer too must be heartfelt. Not a recitation of someone elses prayer. We are also told that we must confess our sins one to another...this means confessing our sins to other believers..so that they can pray for us. It is not just for the local priest or minister.
Oh BTW the Bible calls belivers a royal priesthood..we are all priests. 1 Peter 2:5 and 9 Confession of your sins with a contrite heart is all it takes for the Father to forgive you. There is no scriptural basis for penance. There is no where in the Bible that says that penance must be made for the remission of sins. No where. Jesus did it completely ..he needs no help from us.
Ah, the father issue...yes your scriptures are correct...but where in the Bible does Paul tell people to call him Father?. There is a big difference of acting as a father and having a title of Father. By elevating a man , any man as being holier than anyone else is not scriptural either for God is not a respecter of persons...we are all equal in His sight. Our holiness comes from Jesus Christ who covers His believers with His blood.
The first job of a Christian is to be a witness to the truth of His Word. In sharing my thoughts I have done just that...sometimes truth hurts and is unsavory to the palate...but it remains the truth. My beliefs come from the scriptures alone..they do not come from canon law. A law BTW made up by men to help them rule over others. The Bible doesn't need anything. It is complete in itself.
If you will read the Bible you will find there is one really offensive guy in there. He spoke the truth and he offended a great many people. he offended them so much that they hung Him on a cross until He was dead. Jesus offended those who were stuck in their own traditions so much, that they could not see who was standing in front of them. He is our example.
Maybe this is not the right time to delve into this subject with you...maybe I could wait a few weeks, months before I speak the truth. But that is unscriptural as well. No one is guaranteed tomorrow. And we are called to speak when the opportunity arises, despite the circumstance. the Lord will hold me responsible for the blood of those end up in hell because I refused to speak to them when I had the opportunity. Whether they listen or fail to listen does not matter...what matters is..Did I open my mouth?
This is the best Christian thing I can do.
His role in ending communism might qualify as a sort of miracle.
You were poorly catechized as a Catholic and it appears you haven't learned much since leaving.
I also read that you were never to call anyone here on earth father...because there is but one Father and He is in heaven. Matthew 23:9...Go figure.
Paraphrasing Scripture out of context...Go figure. That's a common fault for linguistic literalists.
"But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master; and all you are brethren. And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters; for one is you master, Christ. He that is the greatest among you shall be your servant." Matthew 23:8-11
"Who said: Ye men, brethren and fathers, hear. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charan." Acts 7:2
"And when he had given him leave, Paul standing on the stairs, beckoned with his hand to the people. And a great silence being made, he spoke unto them in the Hebrew tongue, saying: Men, brethren and fathers, hear ye the account which I now give unto you." Acts 21:40-22:1
"Therefore is it of faith, that according to grace the promise might be firm to all the seed: not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (As it is written: I have made thee a father of many nations), before God, whom he believed: who quickeneth the dead and calleth those things that are not, as those that are." Romans 4:16-17
"I write not these things to confound you: but I admonish you as my dearest children. For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you." 1 Corinthians 4:14-15
"To Timothy, his beloved son in faith. Grace, mercy and peace, from God the Father and from Christ Jesus our Lord." 1 Timothy 1:2
"To Titus, my beloved son according to the common faith, grace and peace, from God the Father and from Christ Jesus our Saviour." Titus 1:4
"Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons. For what son is there whom the father doth not correct? But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards and not sons. Moreover, we have had fathers of our flesh for instructors, and we reverenced them. Shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits and live?" Hebrews 12:7-9
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26
"As you know in what manner, entreating and comforting you (as a father doth his children)," 1 Thessalonians 2:11
"I beseech thee for my son, whom I have begotten in my bands, Onesimus," Philemon 1:10
"I write unto you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, babes, because you have known the Father. I write unto you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and you have overcome the wicked one." 1 John 2:13-14
I'll ask him and get back to you.
The word there is REPENT...repent means a changing of ones mind...it is not saying prayers in front of a statue. Penance is:
an ACT of self-abasement, mortification, PERFORMED to show sorrow for sin.
Repent on the other hand means to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of ones life. To change ones mind. Contrition.
You are right in one thing...I am no longer indoctrinated in the catechism...because I found so many faults in it. As much of what I did learn from the sisters was not biblically correct.
Jesus made atonement for our sins on the cross...it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible to abase myself to help the process along. Confess your sins and you will be forgiven. No other act or work needs to be done.
"But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master; and all you are brethren. And call none your Father upon earth; for one is your Father, who is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters; for one is you master, Christ. He that is the greatest among you shall be your servant." Matthew 23:8-11
...So what part of that scripture says it is ok to be titled Father? Am I missing something here....guess believing that the Bible actually means what it says, is wrong..hmmm. But then again..you said I am a linguistic literalist. Thank you...a wonderful compliment and right on the money. I personally believe that God doesn't lie and that His word is truth and to be taken at face value, literally. To add to or to take away from it ruins it.
All your scriptures are very nice but they do not name anyone with the title, Father...there is no Father Paul..or Father Luke. Acting like a father is not the same as being titled a Father. I can go and do some doctoring and put a band-aid on a knee..but I am not entitled to the title Doctor..because I do not have what it takes to be that...men here on earth can act as fathers but they don't have what it takes to be God...the Father. This is what the writer is saying here. We are not even close to being God the Father...nor should we claim His title.
Stop kidding yourself, you never learned it to begin with and since your departure the only thing you've accomplished is the drinking of the faith is all I need Kool-Aid.
Jesus made atonement for our sins on the cross...it doesn't say anywhere in the Bible to abase myself to help the process along. Confess your sins and you will be forgiven. No other act or work needs to be done.
Jesus' sacrifice gave back to mankind the opportunity to enter heaven which was taken away from him by the actions of Adam and Eve. His death didn't give you carte blanche to commit sins without being punished for them just so long as you "believe". You are still required to perform penance, atone for your sins, convert your heart and show contrition as Scripture repeatedly states. Pay particular attention to Jesus' instructions to perform penance for ones sins.
"Let him do penance for his sin," Leviticus 5:5
"AND in those days cometh John the Baptist preaching in the desert of Judea. And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." John 3:1
"Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance." John 3:3
"I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire." John 3:11
"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matthew 4:17
"Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance." Matthew 11:20
"John was in the desert baptizing, and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins." Mark 1:4
"And going forth they preached that men should do penance:" Mark 6:12
"And he came into all the country about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of penance for the remission of sins;" Luke 3:6
"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of penance; and do not begin to say, We have Abraham for our father. For I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham." Luke 3:8
"I came not to call the just, but sinners to penance." Luke 5:32
"Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida. For if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the mighty works that have been wrought in you, they would have done penance long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." Luke 10:13
"No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish." Luke 13:3
"No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish." Luke 13:5
"I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance." Luke 15:7
"So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance." Luke 15:10
"But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance." Luke 16:30
" Take heed to yourselves. If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him: and if he do penance, forgive him." Luke 17:3
"And that penance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, unto all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Luke 24:47
"But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38
"Do penance therefore for this thy wickedness; and pray to God, that perhaps this thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee." Acts 8:22
"John first preaching, before his coming, the baptism of penance to all the people of Israel." Acts 13:24
"And God indeed having winked at the times of this ignorance, now declareth unto men, that all should every where do penance." Acts 17:30
"Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance, saying: That they should believe in him who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus." Acts 19:4
"Testifying both to Jews and Gentiles penance towards God, and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:21
"But to them first that are at Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and unto all the country of Judea, and to the Gentiles did I preach, that they should do penance, and turn to God, doing works worthy of penance." Acts 26:20
"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and patience, and longsuffering? Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance?" Romans 2:4
"Now I am glad: not because you were made sorrowful; but because you were made sorrowful unto penance. For you were made sorrowful according to God, that you might suffer damage by us in nothing. For the sorrow that is according to God worketh penance, steadfast unto salvation; but the sorrow of the world worketh death." 2 Corinthians 7:9-10
"Lest again, when I come, God humble me among you: and I mourn many of them that sinned before, and have not done penance for the uncleanness, and fornication, and lasciviousness, that they have committed." 2 Corinthians 12:21
"The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance." 2 Peter 3:9
"Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance." Apocalypse 2:5
"In like manner do penance: if not, I will come to thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth." Apocalypse 2:16
"And I gave her a time that she might do penance, and she will not repent of her fornication. Behold, I will cast her into a bed: and they that commit adultery with her shall be in very great tribulation, except they do penance from their deeds." Apocalypse 2:21-22
"Have in mind therefore in what manner thou hast received and heard: and observe, and do penance. If then thou shalt not watch, I will come to thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know at what hour I will come to thee." Apocalypse 3:3
"Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance." Apocalypse 3:19
"And the rest of the men, who were not slain by these plagues, did not do penance from the works of their hands, that they should not adore devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and wood, which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither did they penance from their murders, nor from their sorceries, nor from their fornication, nor from their thefts." Apocalypse 9:20-21
"And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who hath power over these plagues, neither did they penance to give him glory." Apocalypse 16:9
"And they blasphemed the God of heaven, because of their pains and wounds, and did not penance for their works." Apocalypse 16:11
"And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts." Matthew 18:34-35
Am I missing something here....
You are a master of the obvious.
guess believing that the Bible actually means what it says, is wrong..hmmm.
You mean that book created by the Catholic Church, under the guidance of the Paraclete, from the inspired word of Almighty God only to be edited and abridged by Protestants 12 centuries after the fact? A book which teaches explicitly, implicitly, literally and figuratively? A book, which like the eunuch speaking with Philip in the 8th Chapter of the Book of Acts, you fail to properly comprehend? A book in which the word Bible does not appear?Yes, that book. It would be wise if you want to continue in this debate that you first actually read Scripture and then heed the caution of St. Peter before incorrectly interpreting it.
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness. " 2 Peter 3:16-17
Chapter and verse, please.
Now if the saints are only those who have already made it to heaven...why would they need intercession?. Intercession ( prayer) is made for those who are still vulnerable to sin. Saints who have made it to heaven do not continue under the threat of sin..as heaven is a sinless place.
OK, you are obviously a 'once saved always saved' Christian. I get it. I don't agree with you and never will. And I've got a big bag of Scripture to back me up. If one is already a saint, and there is no threat of hell for him, why in the world does he need intercessory prayer?
In Philemon it talks about refreshing the hearts of the saints...saints who are in the presence of God need no refreshing...for He is their refreshing...it comes with the package. The saints here, who battle sin on a daily basis are always in need of refreshing.
Philemon is a short letter. I read the whole thing and it makes no mention of Onesimus being a saint. You seem to be assuming he's a saint because he's a 'saved' follower of Christ. Paul intercedes for Onesimus not with God, but with Philemon, accepting punishment for Onesimus' escape. Oddly enough, in Phil 1:10, Paul mentions his fatherhood of Onesimus. Strange, huh?
The only way to heaven is through the blood of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice...please do not assume that I believe that some guys in Rome need to make you a saint in order for you to go to heaven...that is foolishness.
It appears that I misunderstood you. I assumed you were following the lead of the poster that I was responding to in my original post. I apologize if that is the case.
My understanding of confession and the remission of my sins is not flawed either. The Bible clearly teaches that we must confess our sins to the Father in heaven...it does not say to go to a confessional and tell only the parish priest and then go say some dry repititious prayers at the altar.
Of course it does not say that. Confessionals had not been invented yet. And Catholics confess their sins directly to God, as well as through His ministers. We call them to mind at the beginning of every Mass, as part of the Penitential Rite. We are free to do that any other time we wish, as well. Scripture teaches that both are necessary. How about 2 Cor 5:17-20, where Paul says that God gave the apostles the ministry of reconciliation? Or James 5:13-15, where the sick are healed by the the anointing with oil by the presbyters (priests) of the church and their sins are forgiven? Verse 16 even encourages people to confess their sins to each other.
Confession must come from the heart and be heartfelt. Prayer too must be heartfelt.
You'll get no argument from me on that.
Not a recitation of someone elses prayer.
So we are not to recite the Lord's Prayer that was given to us by Jesus? That tends to be overlooked when one argues against 'vain repetition.'
We are also told that we must confess our sins one to another...this means confessing our sins to other believers..so that they can pray for us. It is not just for the local priest or minister.
Not just for the local priest or minister, but he must be involved. Check out John 20:21-23, where Jesus says to the apostles after the Resurrection, Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you. ... Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained. So how do the apostles know what to forgive or retain unless it is confessed to them?
Oh BTW the Bible calls belivers a royal priesthood..we are all priests.
Yes, we all share in the priesthood of believers. However, we all assume different roles in that priesthood. See Paul's discussion of many parts in one body in Romans 12:3-8. God also established priesthoods in the OT. See 2 Chr 19:11 and Mal 2:7 for evidence of that. In Leviticus, God spends a lot of time proscribing the rites and rituals for sacrifice and atonement for priests, among other things. There is clearly a priesthood set apart from the priesthood of all believers there. Then, of course, in Matthew, Jesus charges the apostles with the responsibilities of exorcism (10:1), and Peter with the keys to heaven (16:18-19). Look at John 20:22-23, where Jesus ordains the apostles ... he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
John 21:15-17 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these? ... "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my sheep." Does this not sound like a special responsibility given to the apostles, to tend to the flocks as shepherds?
1 Cor 12:28 Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles, second, prophets, third, teachers, then, mighty deeds; then gifts of healing, assistance, administratikon, and varieties of tongues.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, ...
1 Thess 5:12 We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you, ...
1 Tim 4:14, Paul says to Timothy, Do not neglect the gift that you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate. It appears that Timothy was ordained by the laying on of hands, doesn't it? He was not ordained simply by virtue of saying "I believe." His was a sacramental ordination.
Titus 1:5 For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right waht remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you, ...
1 Peter 2:5 and 9 Confession of your sins with a contrite heart is all it takes for the Father to forgive you. There is no scriptural basis for penance. There is no where in the Bible that says that penance must be made for the remission of sins. No where. Jesus did it completely ..he needs no help from us.
I believe Cunningham has already answered that for you.
Ah, the father issue...yes your scriptures are correct...but where in the Bible does Paul tell people to call him Father?. There is a big difference of acting as a father and having a title of Father.
Nowhere does Paul give this instruction. This is a straw man intended to distract me from the point. I've clearly shown you that the title of Father is not forbidden in Scripture.
By elevating a man , any man as being holier than anyone else is not scriptural either for God is not a respecter of persons...we are all equal in His sight. Our holiness comes from Jesus Christ who covers His believers with His blood.
Ever hear of the parable of the talents? Jesus clearly did not see things with such an egalitarian mindset.
The first job of a Christian is to be a witness to the truth of His Word. In sharing my thoughts I have done just that...sometimes truth hurts and is unsavory to the palate...but it remains the truth.
Oh, so you just ramble on about a hundred things off the subject and expect me to take you seriously. Gotcha. Tell ya what. Next time you decide out of the blue to correct us wayward Catholics, try to make your points more focused. I'm getting tired trying to correct all your unrelated points.
My beliefs come from the scriptures alone..they do not come from canon law. A law BTW made up by men to help them rule over others. The Bible doesn't need anything. It is complete in itself.
This will really put the stir you up ... that belief is unscriptural. The sola scriptura doctrine is not found anywhere in Scripture. In fact, the Bible tells us we need more than the Bible alone. John 21:25 confirms that not everything Jesus said and did is recorded in Scripture!
John 21:25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.
1 Cor 11:2 I praise you and because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.
Hold fast to the traditions! Paul doesn't say 'Wait for the book!' Indeed, it would not come out for another 300 years! Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Bible is enough to contain all of divine revelation. How are you sure that your own interpretation is correct? There are thousands of other denominations that disagree with the one you belong to you, and the Gospel According to Leenie may very well disagree with your own church!
2 Peter 2:20-21 Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will ...
If you will read the Bible you will find there is one really offensive guy in there. He spoke the truth and he offended a great many people. he offended them so much that they hung Him on a cross until He was dead. Jesus offended those who were stuck in their own traditions so much, that they could not see who was standing in front of them. He is our example.
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for the sins that they hid and the power they hoarded. I was just minding my own business mourning the Pope. You have no idea what sins I've committed, Mister. And just because you mean to provoke me doesn't mean that you're right.
Maybe this is not the right time to delve into this subject with you...maybe I could wait a few weeks, months before I speak the truth. But that is unscriptural as well. No one is guaranteed tomorrow. And we are called to speak when the opportunity arises, despite the circumstance. the Lord will hold me responsible for the blood of those end up in hell because I refused to speak to them when I had the opportunity. Whether they listen or fail to listen does not matter...what matters is..Did I open my mouth?
Thanks for your misguided concern for my spiritual well-being, but I assure you that it is not needed. I do have a question, though. If you're already a saint, how is Jesus going to hold you responsible for my blood? There's no way you're going to Hell, right? But you just can't resist, can you?
This is the best Christian thing I can do.
I think you're better off minding your own business.
You mean that book created by the Catholic Church....
Wow..I have learned something new here...I didn't know the catholic church created the "Bible"...nor did I know that the catholic church was around when the book the eunuch was reading was written. I always thought the catholic church was started by Peter...and the book of Isaiah was written by a Hebrew prophet way before peters time. I never realised this. thanks for the clarification.
I guess it all comes down to this ...in the Bible(s) I use the word penance does not appear..the word used in your references is repent in my Bibles...which gives the scripture a totally different meaning. I looked up the Greek meaning for the the word you say is penance..it is metanoeo...it means to repent.... it does not mean to do penance. Also I would recheck some of your scripture references..John 3:3 talks about being born again..and for some reason it is Nicodemus and Jesus talking...not John the baptist.
I also looked up the references for atone..atonement...there are a gazillion of them in the old testament but the ones that are in the New Testament are concerning only Jesus. They are in Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 2:17 and 9:5. 1 John 2:2 and 4:10 I could not find any references to us making atonement for our sins... only references to Jesus being a sacrifice of atonement for our sins. his atonement for our sins is sufficient.
Do you have a concordance? If you do look up the meanings of the words in the original Greek Aramaic and Hebrew..it brings new light and understanding to the scriptures as they were originally written. Without the catholic or protestant bend in them.
No, just humor for the humorless. Perhaps Paul was in touch throught the communion of Saints.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.