Posted on 03/26/2005 12:06:13 AM PST by Gengis Khan
ATLANTA, GA, Mar. 25 (UPI) -- The U.S. government announced Friday its decision sell nuclear-capable Lockheed-Martin F-16 C/D strike fighter aircrafts to Pakistan. While the deal still needs congressional approval, given that the Republicans control both houses of Congress, the sale is unlikely to face any roadblock.
(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...
It is truly March Madness. After the Terri Schiavo thing, and now this, I am half-expecting for China to be made the 51st state! Or maybe it already is, for all intents and purposes.
Now let me go watch the nice piggies flying above my house!
Nuclear capable? The Pakis already have nuclear capable aircraft. I also suspect that this article was written before Fridays announcement of an F-18 deal with the Indians.
And i am sure that these new F-16s we are going to give (since they are paid for by US taxpayers) to Pakistan will have a number of them made nuclear capable the moment they touch Pakistani soil.
Whats the difference if they buy f-16's from us or Su-27's from Russia? either way they will have what they need. At least this way we get the money. And the workers get the work.
Other Pakistani N-capable aircraft like the Mirage-5,& the Chinese A-5 have nowhere near the air to air capability of an F-16 or the payload.
The US has only offered the F/A-18 to India,along with joint-production.Something the French,the Europeans(Britain/Germany) & Russia have done ages ago with their systems.The F/A-18 has a chance only if the US relases the JDAM,SLAM-ER/JASSM,AMRAAM,APG-80s,along with maximum security against sanctions.You see,unlike in the 60s,India can afford to not be treated as equal-equal with Pakistan & the French,Russians,Israelis,South Africans are all drooling for an Indian contract.
The Russians(& the French & the Poles) know which side their bread is buttered on when it comes to selling weaponry to a semi-failed & bankrupt state like Pakistan.They have a far bigger market in India.
About 'we' getting the money,hope you know that Pakistan has got over 3 bilion US$ of military aid since Sept 11th-so how exactly do 'we' get hard currency????
well, the folks that make the aircraft get the work, siince the F-16 is now dead, to the US. we just recieved the last F-16 yesterday i believe? The US will only sell f-16 not buy anymore. someone needs to keep these people working. Also, i would rather have Pakistan use the aid on our aircraft, rather than giving russia our money.
FYI: India is not our friend. They vote every time against the uSA at the uN.
Err,You cannot use American military aid to buy foreign systems unless the US allows it(as in the case of submarines or tank engines from Europe for Egypt or Israel).The Russians will never sell to Pakistan-they have billions to make in India & they are smart enough to recognise that .Besides Pakistanis regularly turn up in Chechnya,a fact the Russians haven't taken kindly to .
Yep,India has done a lot of evil things-
1.It has yet to sell nuclear tech to distinguished members of the International community,including North Korea,Libya & Iran.
2.It's citizens were among 3 nations(others being Poland & the Phillipines) to have endorsed GWB & the US in a global opinion poll.
3.India hasn't had an incident where an American journalist kidnapped & had his throat slit & the terrorists asking for resupply of F-16s.& India doesn't have a military dictator(oops,it never had one) who said Daniel Pearl was turning up in places he had no business to be in.
4.India's intell agencies did nothing to help form the Taliban.Instead they committed the cardinal sin of forming & arming the Northern alliance along with Iran,Russia & Uzbekistan among others.
ok then they buy from China. Should China get our money? Even if they dont (our money) they still can buy from China.
Pakistan has been China's longest lasting ally.They have stayed that way,even when the US was selling arms to them.Now as they are recieving new F-16s,they are also getting the JF-17/FC-1 fighter & 4 frigates from China.In the late 80s,Pakistan is said to have leased an F-16 to the PRC,which helped them to finetune their J-10 fighter.So if the US sells new F-16s to Islamabad,pls keep that possibility in mind.
Yep,you should also arm Pakistan which is buying scores of weaponry from Beijing & is also building a new deepwater port in Pakistan.What better way to counter China than to arm it's oldest friend.
Ok then: Nevermind!
FYI: India is not our friend. They vote every time against the uSA at the uN.
---Yes but at least we never organised, coordinated and funded jihadis flying aeroplanes into your buildings unlike those whome your country is arming with weaponry.
As for voiting against the US at the UN, we needed to do something to buy the Soviet veto at a time when the US, China and the entire Muslim world ganged up against India at the UN ( that was the time the US was pally with China and the Islamic world, now things are a bit different of course and we all know why ;) ). We did what we needed to do and we did nothing wrong.
I hope we have them fitted with GPS trackers.
Hey, its capitalism. We'll just have to deal with them when they attack us or our allies.
"FYI: India is not our friend. They vote every time against the uSA at the uN."
India is an open democracy - the world's largest - and as such deserves at least our respect, and hopefully our friendship as we share some fundamental core values. Relations with Pakistan are expedient at the moment because of the war on terror but my perception, and I could be wrong, is that its military and a large segment of its population are too radicalized, thus making a smooth transition to a system which is compatible with the long-term interests of the U.S. is fairly unlikely.
True. We should get better along fron no on. I believe we stated so. YEt India must dump the Third worlders gang in the UN and The WTO..etc.
Not Su-37s! Su-30s. The one and only Su-37 Flanker E was destroyed in a crash back in 2001. This was the infamous aircraft numbered 711.
Russia does sell to Pakistan. That is where they got their recent delivery of HIPs from.
"Hey, its capitalism. We'll just have to deal with them when they attack us or our allies."
You're kidding, right?
The Pakis get most of their weapon systems from the Chinese. like the Al-fahjr MBT, and the FC-1 strike figher,
The most profound post to this thread yet.
;(p
Right.
Lockheed-Martin will make a fortune selling spare parts. Wonder who does the depot level maintenance? Big money there, too.
BTTT
Ok, then sell F-16s to China because they could buy Su-27s from Russia as well.
1) Russia doesn't sell anything to Pakistan. The major supplier to Pakistan is China and France.
2) We are not getting money from the deal. Our tax payers are paying for this.
Great post, Sukhoi.
Selling F-16s to Pakistan is crazy IMHO. That country is a failed state waiting to happen.
Capitalism?? Read this from the U.S. Dept. of Commerce, Bureau of Census
The two way bilateral trade in merchandise goods and commodities has increased from $ 5.6 billions in 1990 to $ 18.03 billions in 2003 representing a 221% growth in a span of 13 years. More recently, India’s merchandise exports to USA grew at 10.4% from $11.82 billion in 2002 to $13.05 billion in 2003. The US exports of commodities/ merchandise to India increased from $ 4.1 billion in 2002 to $ 4.98 billion in 2003 (21%). This trend continued in 2004.
Also, India has $147 bln in foreign reserves, which it HAS to spend on defense and infrastructure....
What??? And when has Pakistan Supported the US in the UN?
FYI...India in Afganistan..
"India has participated in a big way in Afghanistan's reconstruction, having committed to a total of US$400 million as assistance to the war-ravaged country over the 2002-2008 period. This puts India among the top six contributors to Afghanistan's reconstruction".
Rice Defends F-16 Sale to Pakistan
By Cihan
Published: Saturday 26, 2005
zaman.com
http://www.zaman.com/?bl=hotnews&alt=&trh=20050326&hn=17857
US Secretary of State Condolezza Rice has defended the US decision to sell F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan.
Rice in an interview published today in the Washington Post said that Pakistan has come a long way, and in the right direction and are better now than they ever have been or have been in years.
The Bush administration officials revealed that this change in US-Pakistan policies is a refection of Islamabad assisting the US in the region following the attacks of 9/11. Rice expressed that she was greatly influenced by the results that 9/11 commission reached and said the US should invest in their relations with Pakistan and if they do not do so, the US may cause the same situation that existed in the 90's to resurface."
I don't think Bush did wrong here, Gengis.
1. He had to do something to prop up Mushy (it will fail and Mushy will be killed, but that is another story). This, apart from the 3 billion in aid, goes a long way to do that. Remember, Kargil notwithstanding, Mushy is probably the best hope for Kashmir since Bush is twisting his arm on that.
2. The balance of power is hardly affected. India can thrash Pakistan anytime, so long as the effete Indian politicians don't get in the way of the fabulous Indian armed forces.
Will they at least pay for it ?
And the point is?
I don't think Bush did wrong here, Gengis.
1. He had to do something to prop up Mushy (it will fail and Mushy will be killed, but that is another story). This, apart from the 3 billion in aid, goes a long way to do that. Remember, Kargil notwithstanding, Mushy is probably the best hope for Kashmir since Bush is twisting his arm on that.
2. The balance of power is hardly affected. India can thrash Pakistan anytime, so long as the effete Indian politicians don't get in the way of the fabulous Indian armed forces.
Completely disagree with you on on both counts.
1) If he had to do something to prop up Mushy he should have found out another way that didnt undermine India's security. Those F-16 have one and only one target........... INDIA! Those billions of dollars in aid and plus the worlds best weaponry (some of which even India does not have) have done much more than just propping up a dictator who in his wildest dream could never have asked for so much as reward for creating and sponsoring terrorism.
Let me put it bluntly, many in India feels (with good reason) that the US is propping up Pakistan as counterweight to a rising India! With this deal the US just lost an ally in India(at least for now). US credibility in India has now nose dived big time.
2)Pakistan has modified its previous batch of F-16s into a nuclear delivery systems. They will do the same with these. Its not about whether we can thrash them or not. The point here is that even one single (nuclear armed) F-16 can wipe out an entire city. Moreover it isnt just the F-16 but the US is also offering PAC-3, PC3 Orions and CJ10s while in our case they even blocked the sale of Isreali Arrow system which is actually a defensive weapon.
And since we all understand that its only a matter of time before Pakistan falls into anarchy, arming them with heavy weaponry is the grandest stupidity the present US administration has done. And shall remain so for a long time.
Mushy is probably the best hope for Kashmir since Bush is twisting his arm on that.
I seriously doubt that. Not after all this. Terrorism in Kashmir hasnt stopped yet.
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Meanwhile, read below.
US wants to help India be a superpower
Saturday, 26 March , 2005, 09:58
Washington: The United States unveiled plans Friday to help India become a "major world power in the 21st century" even as it announced moves to beef up the military of Pakistan.
Under the plans, Washington offered to step up a strategic dialogue with India to boost missile defense and other security initiatives as well as high-tech cooperation and expanded economic and energy cooperation.
US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has presented to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh the Bush administration's outline for a "decisively broader strategic relationship" between the world's oldest and largest democracies, a senior US official said.
"Its goal is to help India become a major world power in the 21st century," said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity.
"We understand fully the implications, including military implications, of that statement."
He did not elaborate but noted that South Asia was critical, with China on one side, Iran and West Asia on the other, and a somewhat turbulent Central Asian region to the north.
The US-India plan was announced as Washington decided Friday to sell an undetermined number of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan under a plan to prop up Pakistan on the political, military and economic fronts.
Rice discussed the US-India plan with Singh during her Asian visit earlier this month but it was not revealed to the public.
The US proposal culminates efforts to repair relations strained by India's May 1998 nuclear tests.
The healing process began when Bill Clinton visited India in March 2000 near the end of his presidency, as the first president to go there since Jimmy Carter in 1978.
He eased sanctions on purchases of high-tech equipment and broke into a market formerly served by India's Cold War ally Russia.
President George W Bush's administration, under a so-called "Next Steps in Strategic Partnership," pushed that process forward by completely lifting sanctions, including military sales, in return for India's support on the US-led war on terrorism.
"This year the administration made a judgment that the 'Next Steps in Strategic Partnership,' though very important, wasn't broad enough to really encompass the kind of things we needed to do to take this relationship where it needed to go, and so the president and the secretary (Rice) developed the outline for a decisively broader strategic relationship," the US official said.
Bush was inviting Prime Minister Singh to visit him in July in Washington and the US leader would also like to travel to South Asia later this year or early next year, he said.
Those presidential meetings, he added, would "be consolidating an enhanced dialogue" on the strategic, energy and economic tracks with India.
The strategic dialogue will include global issues, regional security matters, Indian defense requirements, expanding high-tech cooperation and even working toward US-India defense co-production, the official explained.
The United States, he said, was prepared to "respond positively" to an Indian request for information on American initiatives to sell New Delhi the next generation of multi-role combat aircraft.
"That's not just F-16s. It could be F-18s," he said.
Deputy State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said US corporations were now "free to talk to India" about whatever aircraft they could offer.
"It'll be up to India to decide what it wants. And then negotiations, if it does decide it wants something from us, based on its needs, would proceed from there," Ereli said.
Beyond possible sale of fighter planes, the US is ready to discuss the more fundamental issue of defense transformation with India, including transformative systems in areas such as command and control, early warning and missile defense, the official said.
"Some of these items may not be as glamorous as combat aircraft, but I think for those of you who follow defense issues you'll appreciate the significance," he said.
The energy dialogue is to include civil, nuclear and nuclear safety issues as well as the issue of space launch vehicles and satellites while the existing economic dialogue would be revitalized with discussion of energy, trade, commerce, environment and finance.
US energy, treasury and transport ministers are to visit India this year.
IF press statements & speeches were the primary indicator of progress,then India would have been the most powerful nation on earth!!!The talk of selling F-16s & F/A-18s seem fine,but is the US willing to walk the talk????A fighter aircraft is useless without it's add-ons & will the US release it's APG-79 or 80 AESA radars??It's AMRAAM missiles???It's JASSM/SLAM-ER missiles???will it extend maximum possible tech support & security against sanctions??Which airforce wants a fighter(& 126 of them) which can face embargoes at a short notice.As far as India is concerned,the French & the Russians are far more willing to fulfil those preconditions & more importantly,they have proven themselves as suppliers,unlike the US(hope you know about Rajiv Gandhi's armsdeals with the US).That's the blunt truth,apart from the rhetoric.
Razorccam,your point about the IAF being much larger & hence not needing to worry about the F-16 is ignoring the core issue.The F-16 is an excellent fighter,unlike other N-capable Pak aircraft & hence has a far better chance than to ingress into Indian airspace & take out Amritsar or Ahmedabad-not much using imposing sanctions on Pakistan then,right??
Pakistan?!! I can think of a few others that rank a little higher. Like Syria, Iran, China and Cuba to name a few.
In the late 80's we had military technicians actively working in China to help them develop their military aviation industry. I know one of them who was personally involved in helping them adapt Western avionics for the J-8. The J-10 was as much a product of Israeli engineering (which was a product of our engineering) as anything else. The Chinese have gotten nothing from the Pak's that we haven't given them already.
Nope,there is proof that the Pakis did lease an F-16 or 2 to the PRC & that this,along with the Israeli Lavi,played a keyrole in finetuning the Chinese J-10 fighter.Yep,I know about the US cooperation till Tianammen.IIRC,the Israelis offered the technology for the LAVI,after an initial US goahead,which was cancelled after the massacre.The J-8 upgrade package came under 'Peace Pearl',right??Few folks on here talk about the sale of LM-2500 gas turbines & MK-46 torpedoes to China as it happened under Reagan!!!!
PS-do you know anything about the F-16 being offered to the PRC in the early 80s???I remember reading about it in a newspaper article sometime back,but it was too brief.It was aborted due to intense lobbying from Japan,India & others.IIRC,the Brits had offered to sell the Harrier to China,but cancelled it after they invaded Vietnam in 1979.
But in Pakistan westerners are told going out of Karachi, Islamabad and Lahore is at their own risk. The populace in the areas outside the major cities is sympathetic towards jihadi elements. And although Musharaff has placed his bets with the west many aspects of his government are not pro-American by any measure, and neither is a good portion of the general populace. And they have the greatest concentration of zealot madrassas in the world, and the only Indonesia is said to have more Al Qaeda sympathizers.
While I agree with you both that military supplies from the US cannot be counted upon due to sanctions, doesn't that cut both ways? You forget that that also applies to Pakistan.
F-16's are 19080's technology. Speaking to IAF officers, I learn that they are not particularly concerned about it. They are more concerned about the missiles Pak has. Remember that their missiles can strike pretty much all of India whereas F-16's will be hard pressed to get beyond Agra/Ahmedabad.
Lastly, as far as planes go, I'd stick with Russian ones. They are probably the best (this will raise the ire of many on this board, but that is my take).
Firstly,which nation will be more likely to use nukes???Pakistan.So by the time the US puts an embargo on the Pakis,they would have finished off an Indian city or military base because they would have no other choice.On the other hand,India with it's greater conventional superiority won't mind fighting longer(Bear in mind China),so any embargo will hurt it.
About the F-16s being 1980s vintage,your IAF pals were right in the particular context ie they were referring to Pakistan's existing fleet of F-16 Blk 20s purchased in the 1980s.The Pakistanis now want the F-16 Blk 50 with the AMRAAM,which is anything but 1980s vintage.Missiles have big problem,most Pakistani missiles are silo launched-so they can be taken out.An F-16 can operate from any airbase in Pakistan & though it's reach will reduce,it can still hit India.
No, I haven't heard anything about that, but it wouldn't surprise me. And there really isn't any technology in the Pakistani F-16's that wasn't readily available from other sources. The export version of the F-16A was not the leading edge of Western technology.
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