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Bush’s triumph conceals the great conservative crack-up
Times on Line (England) ^ | 3/19/05 | Andrew Sullivan

Posted on 03/19/2005 7:42:20 PM PST by Mobile Vulgus

It should be the best of times for American conservatism. Republican majorities in the House and Senate, a re-elected Republican president, an increasing number of Republican governors and a rightwards tilt in the judiciary. While the British Tories and German Christian Democrats flounder, America’s right seems to flourish.

Well, that’s the cover story. Beneath the surface, however, American conservatism is in increasing trouble. The Republican coalition, always fragile, now depends as much on the haplessness of the Democrats as on its own internal logic. On foreign and domestic policy alike the American right is splintering. With no obvious successor to George W Bush that splintering will deepen....


TOPICS: Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS: britrash; bs; bushhate; crap; democratindisguise; dutroll; fullofit; horseflop; instigator; laughable; lie; loadofcrap; newbie; newtroll; nottrue; poppycock; rat; troll; trollalert; usahate; wishfulthinking
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Comment #51 Removed by Moderator

To: SteveMcKing

[(Carter didn't just suck, he sucked ROYALLY)]

This is very true, but contrary to popular opinion, he didn't suck because he was an incompetent boob, he sucked because he (along with his Democratic friends who controlled Congress) skillfully implemented sweeping policies of Euro-socialism on our country. The result was a wrecked economy and societal problems that caused a national "malaise".


52 posted on 03/19/2005 9:05:56 PM PST by spinestein ( "I thought I knew everything. I didn't get it. I'm here to say I was totally wrong." --B. Boxer)
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To: silent_jonny

Perhaps that fudgy smell, a smell of fear that a truly grass roots conservatism is emerging that will not accept the elitist drive to cram the homosexual agenda down our throats and will finally draw the line that so far, so many of our "leaders" have refused to draw.


53 posted on 03/19/2005 9:13:07 PM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: AmericanVictory

Frankly, I think the Republican congress is doing well. They have passed Anwr and transportation and bankrupcy laws that have been waiting for years. Social Security reform will happen. The Middle East is changing. I know you want more immigration action, and it will come.


54 posted on 03/19/2005 9:17:52 PM PST by ClaireSolt (.)
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To: ClaireSolt

Just another disastrous attempt by the gang that can't even get it up to shoot.
Yet another glorious backfire.
The Ghost of Peter Sellers is having a field day!


55 posted on 03/19/2005 9:22:30 PM PST by CBart95
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To: Mobile Vulgus

No republicans anymore

Dems are socialists and pubs are dems nowadays

CUT SPENDING DAMNIT


56 posted on 03/19/2005 9:32:16 PM PST by skaterboy (She wore a itsy bittsy teeny weeny bikini)
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To: muawiyah

Didnt Bush get same gay vote in 04 he got in 00?


57 posted on 03/19/2005 9:33:03 PM PST by skaterboy (She wore a itsy bittsy teeny weeny bikini)
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To: undercover brother
There is always a chance that an elected democracy will also be a rogue nation. That's a chance you take.

But in the history of the world, how many conflicts have involved two democracies fighting each other, and how many haven't?

There's no guarantee that every democracy will be a reasonably benign global player, but both logic and history tend to show that they are far more likely to be.

58 posted on 03/19/2005 9:35:20 PM PST by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
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Comment #59 Removed by Moderator

To: Mobile Vulgus
Taken in its entirety, the article is not one of Andrew's best. But I must admit, he has struck a chord or two of fact regarding the future mantle passing when our President is finished. I smell Hatellary Rodhamster piling up turds of democrap conservatism, in an effort to create a favorable rating for her 2008 run at Empress; apparently, Andy is getting an occasional whiff of same. [Actually, should I convey it that way, what with Andy's rearward leaning?
60 posted on 03/19/2005 9:43:13 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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Comment #61 Removed by Moderator

Comment #62 Removed by Moderator

To: byteback

***If the Democrats ever figure out that they should be Pro America they could take some seats.***

They've figured out that they should be pro-God, as some of them have conveniently started quoting scripture and been talking about "what God wants." I'm not one to cast stones or past judgement, but I'm definitely not going to give ANY credibility to baby killers.

Hippiecrits.


63 posted on 03/19/2005 9:53:00 PM PST by Zeppelin (Keep on FReepin' on.....)
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To: ClaireSolt

The energy legislation will do very little. In no other area is there such a vacuum of leadership in Washington as there is in energy. Frankly, for over 30 years the combination of big energy, big bio (a la ADM) and big auto has placed us ever further into the grips of the oil that funds the Terror by subsidizing problems and avoiding their solutions, just as Ronald Reagan said Washington does, and just as George Gilder pointed out was a serious danger at the time of the Reagan Revolution. Here too, the collusion between bigness on the corporate side and big environmentalism has resulted in a dance that has successfully avoided even looking in the right directions.


64 posted on 03/19/2005 9:54:19 PM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: Mobile Vulgus
Old school conservatives — or “realists”, as they call themselves — had no time for nation building or for wars of liberation among cultures they viewed as irredeemably undemocratic. Neoconservatives — many of them former Democrats and liberals — saw spreading liberty as integral to a successful foreign policy.

Old school conservatives, Neoconservatives, what a bunch of hosrsesh*t.

I've been a freedom loving conservative for a long time. I think advocating freedom around the world will make our country safer. Many conservatives who have been conservatives for a long time agree with me.

Only liberals use such queer terms as "nonconservative" and "old school conservative" and think it actually correlates with isolationism.

65 posted on 03/19/2005 9:54:43 PM PST by FreeReign
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To: Berosus; blam; Do not dub me shapka broham; Ernest_at_the_Beach; FairOpinion; ValerieUSA
On foreign and domestic policy alike the American right is splintering. With no obvious successor to George W Bush that splintering will deepen.

Good heavens. If the Demagogic Party were not shredding, due to the radicalization of its leadership (not to mention 9/11) this claim wouldn't be made. The Pubbies have picked up votes, and will continue to, and those voters used to be either non-voters, or voted Dim.

I realize that Diehard Dims think that the RP is some kind of "homophobic", racist, pro-life, imperialist, capitalist, "right-wing", fundamentalist, boys-only clubhouse, so it must be disorienting for them when something appears to contradict that.

The main thing to realize is, more people are out there (and the numbers grow every day) who will never again trust the Demagogic Party to ru(i)n this country.
66 posted on 03/19/2005 9:56:22 PM PST by SunkenCiv (last updated my FreeRepublic profile on Sunday, March 13, 2005.)
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To: Mobile Vulgus
All bickering aside, I would like to point out you said we folks will keep following our internet info sources, our talk radio and Fox news sources, and stay in line.
67 posted on 03/19/2005 9:59:04 PM PST by lainie
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To: Mobile Vulgus

Differences of opinion - to an extent - make a successful and agile party. Besides, anything that depends on Democrat haplessness is on pretty solid ground.


68 posted on 03/19/2005 10:01:50 PM PST by thoughtomator (Sick already of premature speculation on the 2008 race)
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To: familyop

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think this must be their own map.

69 posted on 03/19/2005 10:02:03 PM PST by LoudAmericanCowboy (''If the president just does more of the same every day...I may be handed Lebanon..."-John F'n Kerry)
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To: undercover brother

["any democracy is preferable to any totalitarian government, no matter what standard you use."]

I should have added "in the long run"

The reason is, benign dictatorships never stay benign, but any nation that has a government genuinely acountable to its citzens will (most often) act in ways that promote peaceful co-existence with its neighbors (in the long run).


70 posted on 03/19/2005 10:08:10 PM PST by spinestein ( "I thought I knew everything. I didn't get it. I'm here to say I was totally wrong." --B. Boxer)
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To: lainie

>>"All bickering aside, I would like to point out you said we folks will keep following our internet info sources, our talk radio and Fox news sources, and stay in line."

Ha, ha. That DID sound a tad "controlling" of me, didn't it?

I meant vote the Party and keep the Party in office, I didn't necessarily mean a certain "line" of policy.


71 posted on 03/19/2005 10:08:57 PM PST by Mobile Vulgus
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To: familyop

I think this must be their map. Assuming American conservatives don't exist

72 posted on 03/19/2005 10:09:17 PM PST by LoudAmericanCowboy (''If the president just does more of the same every day...I may be handed Lebanon..."-John F'n Kerry)
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To: Mobile Vulgus

AIGHT.....

aight for now. I'm watching you boy-o

;)


73 posted on 03/19/2005 10:12:54 PM PST by lainie
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To: skaterboy
[Didnt Bush get same gay vote in 04 he got in 00?]


Bush got a higher percentage of the "gay vote", and the "black vote", as well as other "special interest" votes in 04 than in 00.

I guess it's because everybody knows he's such an intolerant bigot who wants to persecute gays and minorities. /sarcasm
74 posted on 03/19/2005 10:12:56 PM PST by spinestein ( "I thought I knew everything. I didn't get it. I'm here to say I was totally wrong." --B. Boxer)
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Comment #75 Removed by Moderator

To: undercover brother
I can't argue with that, in fact I agree more than would seem from my last posts and I believe, as you do, that short term interests should be of primary importance when talking about security (like nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorists).

But don't be too quick to pooh-pooh the long term. :^)
76 posted on 03/19/2005 10:21:22 PM PST by spinestein ( "I thought I knew everything. I didn't get it. I'm here to say I was totally wrong." --B. Boxer)
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Comment #77 Removed by Moderator

To: dead
"That HAS to be reigned in and reversed."

LOL like that will ever happen!

78 posted on 03/19/2005 10:24:05 PM PST by jpsb
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To: All

Tim Russert on CNBC right now

...with Andrew Sullivan, Time Magazine

...and E. J. Dione, Georgetown University


79 posted on 03/19/2005 10:25:41 PM PST by Portrait of a Lady
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To: skaterboy
"CUT SPENDING DAMNIT"

It certainly is ironic that it turns out the demorcrats spend less then the republicans. Who'd da hunk it. Boy did fool us big time or what. Bush turns out to be nicer, kinder LBJ.

80 posted on 03/19/2005 10:27:05 PM PST by jpsb
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To: Mobile Vulgus
Once we get back on that track we will be unable to lose even with guys like Buchanan out there.

Did we lose something? I was under the impression we were running everything, except the SCOTUS which we are working on, aka the last liberal outpost. lol
81 posted on 03/19/2005 10:35:18 PM PST by TheForceOfOne
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To: TheForceOfOne

Every one of these people on the left who are nattering about the precariousness of the Republican Party and how it's going to implode (apparently because of the instability of winning elections so often) would sell their mothers into slavery for a chance to trade places with those on the right.

This author believes less of his own story than I do, and I don't believe a word of it.


82 posted on 03/19/2005 10:58:26 PM PST by spinestein ( "I thought I knew everything. I didn't get it. I'm here to say I was totally wrong." --B. Boxer)
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To: muawiyah
...numbers of Conservative homosexuals...

Yeah, both of them!

83 posted on 03/19/2005 11:01:14 PM PST by JimRed ("Hey, hey, Teddy K., how many girls did you drown today?")
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To: Mobile Vulgus

These poor people are beginning to scare me .. or should I be ROTFLOL!! Pitiful!


84 posted on 03/19/2005 11:04:38 PM PST by CyberAnt (President Bush: "America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth".)
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To: silent_jonny

"I smell something"

Yes, it's the beautiful smell of liberal panic... a mixture of failure, hypocrisy, canabalism, and closet racism.


85 posted on 03/19/2005 11:16:10 PM PST by Awestruck (Let Terri Live!)
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To: silent_jonny
" On foreign and domestic policy alike the American right is splintering. " Lets have a year of Condi - Bolton - Wolfowitz (sp) then revisit this.
86 posted on 03/19/2005 11:38:54 PM PST by spokeshave (Strategery + Schardenfreude = Stratenschardenfreudery)
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To: silent_jonny

Better check your feet :-)


87 posted on 03/20/2005 12:09:00 AM PST by Lexinom (You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him.)
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To: Mobile Vulgus; Travis McGee; Squantos; B4Ranch; Dr. Marten; Fedora; Atlantic Friend; Marie007
Sullivan misses the forest for the trees. The Republican party is losing its opportunity for leadership over these issues: Meanwhile we're distracted daily in conservative media outlets by the religious right and the free trade lobby. The "moral majority" can talk about the end of the world, but it can't do anything about illegal immigration, outsourcing, and Walmart. Walmart's tentacles are deep, and the RNC simply looks the other way. Wall Street would sell its grandmother to make a buck, but the RNC can't act because laissez faire brings in so many kickbacks.

America is in trouble, and the RNC wraps a flimsy flag around its sold-out, unpatriotic core. Who'll dare to point out that the Emperor has no real clothes? Who will dare to demand that the RNC live up to the real duties of leadership?

The opportunities for real change slip further away each time the RNC does nothing when something absolutely needs to be done on these issues. Why are we supplying arms to Egypt and Saudi Arabia at a time like this? Something stinks in Washington, and it's a bipartisan odor. As VDH says, America was founded by rural people. Wall Street and the Beltway insiders don't really care about that. Can the RNC do more than manipulate them for its short term gains? There's a lot more to rural America than NASCAR and hunting rights.

And there's a lot more at stake than the RNC has been willing to concede. Being "right" is ineffectual if it doesn't solve problems. And not all of the problems we have were created by the left, as much as the RNC and some of the FR faithful would have us believe. We've done it to ourselves for cheap trinkets here and a quick profit there.

88 posted on 03/20/2005 12:10:29 AM PST by risk
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To: risk

Conservatism is in trouble, but for reasons that go deeper than Sullivan's biased, shallow, confused analysis provides. Statist liberalism is also in trouble. So is classical liberalism. So is Islamic radicalism. So what else is new?


89 posted on 03/20/2005 12:18:42 AM PST by California Patriot
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To: California Patriot

The only time to really shake things up and really examine problems in the party is now, between elections, but he's definitely not offering any real help. If his 2-3 pet agendas aren't represented, he could care less.


90 posted on 03/20/2005 12:22:48 AM PST by risk
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To: Mobile Vulgus
Ha, ha. There are only about 6% of the entire population that ARE homosexual (maybe even LESS). What makes him think that only a portion of that small number is a massive number of gays leaving the Party??

6%? I suspect that number may include the yet-to-be recruited Chicken-hawks and those still rotting in their lonely graves. Yes, they are leaving the party in record numbers, but that's only as their excessive depravity causes their life-expectancy to continually drop.

OTOH, there are a greater number of younger "children" who are being decieved into the practice believing it makes them more socially "attractive" during high school. I've been hearing more about this (while cringing.) Sad as it may be there could be potential to support the number, at least temporarily, as most children have a tendancy to grow up.

91 posted on 03/20/2005 12:23:59 AM PST by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: risk

I'd give Andrew a little more credit than that, but I would agree that 1) his vehemence about gay "marriage" badly distorts his perspective; and 2) that on social issues generally, he's on the side of the left. This seriously undermines whatever "conservative" credentials he has, and therefore lessens the value (and impact) of his advice.

I agree that a serious examination, even a "shakeup," is needed among the GOP and conservatives, and I agree that the time is now.


92 posted on 03/20/2005 12:32:43 AM PST by California Patriot
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To: California Patriot

Yep, yep, and yep. He does care about winning the war on terror because like any intelligent and observant westerner realizes, they'll come for him if we lose. I don't give him much credit for that alone. He also likes to keep his taxes low so he can spend more money on his personal pursuits. I don't give him much credit for that, either. Low taxes are good for so much more than that, such as encouraging families to thrive. I'm not sure the notion of "family" is of much importance to him at all.


93 posted on 03/20/2005 12:40:21 AM PST by risk
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To: risk

It seems to me that selfishness affects Andrew's writings to this extent -- it makes him blow gay "marriage" and the GOP's opposition to it way out of proportion. But I also believe that he sincerely thinks gay "marriage" is not only OK for society as a whole, but good for it, as well as for gays.

I think Andrew cares a lot about society, but doesn't understand all that's necessary to keep it together. It seems to me that he is a sincere economic conservative who doesn't fully understand how incapable the Democrats are of fiscal responsibility (since their spending instincts are even worse than the Republicans'). On national security, I'd give him credit for a lot of seriousness and a fair amount of willingness to go to war. But like most moderates and liberals, he shrinks too easily from the ugly side of war. He has been freaking out for months about Abu Ghraib and the like, which are unfortunate and need to be corrected, but in the end are minor sideshows. Sullivan's lack of perspective here is enough to cast serious doubt on his judgement. But I think his solidarity with the West, and his rejection of pacifism and UN-ism are quite real.


94 posted on 03/20/2005 12:48:18 AM PST by California Patriot
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To: California Patriot

I hadn't been reading enough of Sullivan's writing to know that he was anti-UN. His advocacy for destroying marriage as we know it occluded my ability to see his decent side. That's good to know that he doesn't like the UN, although I don't know exactly what he doesn't like about it. But again, I'm skeptical of the "conservative" who just doesn't like to pay taxes. I know a few aging boomers who are as liberal as the day is long, but resent paying taxes associated with young people's public costs such as education. In other words, let corporations pay taxes, but don't ask me for money for the kids. Yeah, that's real conservative... NOT.


95 posted on 03/20/2005 12:54:23 AM PST by risk
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To: Free Vulcan

Dead wrong. The Times is a true-blue conservative paper owned by Rupert Murdoch.


96 posted on 03/20/2005 12:59:40 AM PST by Bombay Bloke
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To: Mobile Vulgus
Note to Andrew, After endorsing Kerry, you no longer have the intellectual credibility to advise the Right on anything. You are so over Andrew.
97 posted on 03/20/2005 1:53:35 AM PST by MNJohnnie (Next up, US Senate. 60 in 06!)
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To: undercover brother
I agree. However, you argued that spreading democracy will make the world more peaceful. In certain cases, this is not so. The failure to address was a major flaw in Sharansky's thesis.


Please give us three examples where spreading Democracy has resulted in greater instability?


I'll help you out. There aren't any. This is a nonsensical argument advanced by the Isolationists Hard Right. There "what if"s are totally ridiculous. What if all there chicken little extremist worrys are wrong and Democracy DOES result in greater stablity? Extremism flourishes only when a population figures it has nothing to lose. Democratic systems always increase people's say in the system thus making extremism less attractive. 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. Systems tend towards low energy and high entropy. Political Extremism is a high energy system.

BTW, before you waste my time with Hitler, go re-read your history. Hitler never won a majority in any German election. What he did have was majority in flawed Parliamentary system which had no checks on the Chancellor powers. He then used those powers to ram thur emergency legislation (And emergency created by his party's own illegal actions) to overturn the legal system and end the Weimar Republic.
98 posted on 03/20/2005 2:08:13 AM PST by MNJohnnie (Next up, US Senate. 60 in 06!)
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To: Mobile Vulgus

Welcome to FR. Your analysis is off as bad as Sullivans'.


99 posted on 03/20/2005 3:39:34 AM PST by KeyWest
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To: muawiyah

I saw this guy, AS, for the first time in months when I was surfing and came upon him on the Tim Russert gab fest last night. What's happened to him? AS looks like he's gained both a beard and about fifty pounds since the last time I saw him. . . It seems to have affected his ability to reason.


100 posted on 03/20/2005 3:45:17 AM PST by SouthCarolinaKit
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