Posted on 03/12/2005 11:53:08 AM PST by West Coast Conservative
Opponents of the US-led invasion of Iraq nearly came to blows in Berlin Saturday with pro-US demonstrators accusing them of supporting "terrorism" and tolerating Saddam Hussein.
About 200 people, mainly German pacifist and left-wing activists, attended an unofficial meeting called to condemn the war against Iraq and demand the withdrawal of American troops.
But the gathering was interrupted by hecklers blaming anti-war demonstrators for supporting the wave of extremist violence in Iraq.
Outside, about 20 people demonstrated against the conference, saying it was indirectly supporting the old Saddam regime.
"We don't hate the Americans and we condemn suicide bombings against civilians, but we believe the resistance (against US forces) is legitimate," said conference organiser Barbara Fuchs, a member of the anti-globalisation movement Attac
"We are not supporters of Saddam Hussein either," Fuchs stressed. "We're glad his regime has ended."
"None of those invited here has any links with Saddam Hussein, they are all his former opponents," said co-organiser Joachim Guilliard.
But one Iraqi interrupted, crying: "By supporting terrorism you have destroyed our country."
But another replied to loud applause: "Before all this, we were all Arabs in Iraq. Now we're Shiites, Sunnis, Kurds ... all because of the occupation."
"We call on the Americans to leave Iraq because they are turning the country into utter chaos," said Sheikh Hadi al-Khalissi of Iraq's National Founding Congress (INFC). "They are destroying Iraq and its oil resources and are trying to change Iraqi culture."
"Germany, France and all other countries hostile to the occupation must help not the Iraqi government but the population, by providing medical supplies and food," he said, stressing that he was opposed to the kidnapping of foreigners in Iraq.
Germany, together with France and Russia, led European opposition to the US-led invasion of Iraq two years ago, on March 20, 2003.
Germany's attitude produced major strains in its relationship with Washington. Last month US President George W. Bush made a special fence-mending trip to Germany, a key NATO ally of Washington, and had conciliatory talks with Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder as part of a European tour.
But the German government still refuses deploy any forces in Iraq.
Sami Ramadani, an Iraqi sociologist exiled to London in 1979, told the conference there were daily acts of resistance to the American presence in Iraq, but only terrorist acts made headlines.
"If somebody kills your father or your brother, it's normal to take up arms," said Ramadani, an opponent of both Saddam and the US presence.
He said the way to get rid of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party regime was not American intervention.
"The US has its own political and strategic agenda to dominate the region, they have only brought instability. Without clear notification of American withdrawal the situation can only get worse.
"Iraqis are not idiots."
Outside the building where the meeting was held about 20 people demonstrated against the conference. The gathering was "indirectly supporting the old regime," said Ali al-Nasraui, spokesman for the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), the country's main Shiite party.
"The meeting has the hidden aim of legitimising (Saddam Hussein's) old Baath Party," which was responsible for many of the suicide bombings and causing anarchy.
He said no Iraqi like the idea of the country being occupied. But the US was contributing to providing Iraq with democratic institutions.
"We need time." he said. "When we no longer need the Americans, we'll push them over the border."
does FR have a German chapter? :)
Germany purged itself of militant nationalism after WWII but in the process purged itself of rational thought as well.
A nation that gave the world so much of the arts, science, and literature had gotten emeshed in the hell of Naziism...and coming out of this mess emerged as just a pathetic socialistic wreck.
Must be a mistranslation for "pointing out that they were in fact."
Dan
"If somebody kills your father or your brother, it's normal to take up arms," said Ramadani, an opponent of both Saddam and the US presence.
He said the way to get rid of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party regime was not American intervention.
I wonder if Mr. Ramadani realizes that when he had the chance to stand-up for Iraq, and against Saddam, he ran to Britain. So I wonder exactly what the alternatives to the invasion were when Iraqi-patriots aren't willing to hang tough?
über Zeit sprach jemand oben. These folks must be freinds or relatives of a lot of the German soldiers that have vocalized support to our troops over there. A lot of these soldiers have saluted our troops every time they come across one who is wearing an Iraqi Freedom badge. They have been doing this in direct violation of orders not to salute.
Leftists love to praise "stability." It's a code for supporting dictators like Saddam, whose governments are often very "stable."
I wish someone would make it clear to the inept thinkers and state simply:
"Either you are with us, or you are against us".
Sometimes braindead libs are just too easy! Now how did they say they would have ended Saddamn's torture and rape rooms???
Let's end the occupation of Germany!!
Pray for W and Our Freedom Marching Troops
So how many millions of people lost a father, or mother, or child, etc under Saddam? These folks should be fighting the terrorists.
"We don't hate the Americans and we condemn suicide bombings against civilians, but we believe the resistance (against US forces) is legitimate,"
That comment makes no sense. They condemn the suicide bombings that are the very same "resistance" they support?
"we believe the resistance is legitimate"
How can a person with a brain believe that ..?? It boggles the mind. Everytime we arrest these people - they are from several other different countries - they're not Iraqis.
But .. these people come to the table with a grudge against us in the first place which makes feeding them disinformation so easy.
longjack
I think Europe is in real trouble - France alone has a 10% Muslim population - we only have 1-2%.
The Muslims in the UK are a huge force also. This is going to get ugly.
HA! HA! HA! Idiots, They aren't even envolved with Iraq. I wonder what kind of "blows" the Germs will come to when they debate whether or not to become an Islamic State?
Maybe thru NATO.
"We need time." he said. "When we no longer need the Americans, we'll push them over the border."
uh...yeah right. We'll leave when we're damn good and ready and not before. We might even decide to build a base or two. Ungrateful Iraqi scum...
...20 people demonstrated against the conference...
FReeperdamnerungs
We are currently in favor of pushing them into Syria, but it may be more beneficial for us to push them into Iran. Its too early to tell.
They're already bordering on irrelevant. That's what has them squawking for attention and being opportunistic obstructionists in the first place.
I think they mean that they support homicide bombings against soldiers, but not against civilians.
Germany purged itself of militant nationalism after WWII but in the process purged itself of rational thought as well."
Not really accurate, there were no German men left after WWII, the country had to import Turkmen to do mens' work
Spoken like a true a$$hole.... an unappreciative, self deluding a$$hole...
I'm convinced there are enough worthy Iraqis in Iraq to justify our sacrifices --- but they will have to kill a lot more of their stupid "cousins" before the place can settle down and join the current century......
The majority of Germans, French, Spanish, Dutch and like minded bastards, will be NO help to the Iraqi people..
Semper Fi
With Germany, what's old is new once more.
They don't give a rats butt about the Iraq people, they want another corrupt government to make a deal with.
" are trying to change Iraqi culture."
If that culture were in a petri dish, bleach would have been added long ago.
That's the truth. but the German women still wound up doing the heavy work.
"I think they mean that they support homicide bombings against soldiers, but not against civilians."
That's EXACTLY what they mean - they hate America, but feel sorry that the random Iraqi has to die to get at those 'occupiers' - or at least pretend to be sorry for the murders that are less 'popular'. They are classic terrorist 'fellow-tavellers', lamenting the 'excesses' but failing to admit they feed those excesses with their support for illegimate terrorist acts and violent pro-tyranny causes.
Well, Iraq has a lot of Muslims too, and those Iraqi muslims just voted for people who said that U.S. forces NEED TO STAY for now.
Why dont these idiots listen to the voice of democratic Iraq??!??
Sounds great to me! Hurry up Iraq and get your stuff together, then push us over the border.
Iran border, Syria border, does not matter much to me!
"Why dont these idiots listen to the voice of democratic Iraq??!??"
The Iraqi people are too ignorant to know what they want. And .. the USA is oppressing them. [/s]
Friends, it's all of western Europe (not only the "frogs"). We can promote a change of attitude in western Europe only by letting people in all of those countries (including France, Germany, Italy, Britain, Spain--all) know that we are onto their anti-American majority sentiment. If you've noticed that people in those countries (and more) are trying to deny that any such majority sentiment exists, you've noticed the nerve that we need to touch in order to get them to promote pro-American attitudes in their own countries.
--American identity proponent
"German soldiers that have vocalized support to our troops over there"
They understand that someday they might be fighting side by side. We don't always have people willing to fight and die by our side. It's nice of them to extend this sign of friendship.
Holtz
JeffersonRepublic.com
Let me guess, this is a bad thing, right.
Aren't these lunatics a little behind the curve?
The problem with Europe in general and "old Europe" in particular is they got the wrong lesson from the XXth century. The lesson they got is "all wars are wrong and evil", when the correct lesson should be, some wars are wrong, and fighting evil is never wrong.
Really? Awesome! Glad to hear we have friends over there, though not surprised they are in or near the military.
Glad to see some protestors on our side in germany too! Maybe they'll spark a counter trend!
War is to Europe what whiskey is to alcoholics. They can't partake for fear of what their lack of discipline will certainly cause. I blame their lack of judgement on their abandonment of Christian values.
Poland has been the longest and most faithful ally of the USA, since the Revolutionary War.
Even when the socialist FDR gave Poland to his communist brethren at Yalta, Poland remained an ally.
The Brits no longer really like Americans, although I still consider the nation (as a whole) still a staunch ally.
Pro US demonstrators? Very cool.
This is a classic example of what Laura Ingraham calls a "but monkey."
OK, so what is 'Attac'?
from another thread's article- a very interesting one- titled "Franco-German Alliance Pushes Global Tax Against America" :
...A closed-door meeting of left-wing non-governmental organizations (NGOs) was held on January 16, 2003, in Washington, D.C. to consider how to apply international financial pressure through a global tax on the U.S. Bruno Jetin, a representative of ATTAC France, spoke to the gathering and acknowledged in private conversation that his group works hand-in-glove with the French Communist Party and the "Socialist parties on the Left." A representative of the embassy of France in the U.S. was listed as a participant.ATTAC stands for the Association for the Taxation of Financial Transactions for the Aid of Citizens. The International ATTAC Movement was created at an international meeting in Paris on December 11-12, 1998. It claims 80,000 members worldwide and an international network of independent national and local groups in 33 countries. It claims 20,000 members in France alone.
[* My note: December 1998 was a very interesting month in Iraq as it is when inspectors were pulled out and Operation Desert Fox took place. There was chatter from al Qaeda about a terror attack on Washington DC & NY that month, too]
Their goal is implementation of the Tobin Tax, named after the late Yale University economist James Tobin. His proposal was for a tax on international currency transactions in the foreign currency markets. The global tax effort is a key facet of an international campaign to isolate, resist and ultimately overcome the U.S. position of dominance in the world.
The foreign currency markets are considered the world's largest -- between $1.2 trillion and $2 trillion a day is exchanged. Proponents call the Tobin tax the "Robin Hood tax" because it supposedly taxes the rich to benefit the poor. But it would affect ordinary Americans' savings accounts, IRAs, Mutual Funds and pensions - any vehicle with money that is invested abroad. Possible revenues from such a tax have been estimated in the billions or even trillions of dollars a year....
Pretty much explains their attitude at the meeting, doesn't it?
Bruno Jetin of France said ATTAC doesn't have a formal U.S. affiliate but that his group works with Dean Baker of the Center for Economic Policy Research. CEPR reports that it receives 85 percent of its funds from the Ford Foundation, the Charles Stewart Mott Foundation, the Rockefeller Foundation and the Rockefeller Brothers Fund.Oh, and another supporter of the Tobin Tax is George Soros.Baker stated at the forum that proposals for a global tax might gather support in the U.S. if politicians said that the proceeds would go for health care, education and other such matters.
A variation of such a proposal was offered by Democratic Senator Jeff Bingaman (N.M.) at the request of Democratic leader Tom Daschle in 1996. Entitled, "Scrambling to Pay the Bills: Building Allies for America's Working Families," the Bingaman report called for a securities transfer excise tax (STET) that would extend to transactions by individuals, corporations, and tax-exempt pension funds and would apply to stocks, bonds, options, futures, swaps of currency, interest rates and other assets.
By his calculations, the tax could generate anywhere from $27 billion to $62 billion a year that the federal government could spend on education, work force training and other liberal programs. He said its implementation would have to be coordinated with other G-7 countries (U.S, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and Britain) and would, therefore, be the beginning of the Tobin Tax on a global scale.
A U.S. Congress Concurrent Resolution on "Taxing Cross-border Currency Transactions to Deter Excessive Speculation" (H.Con.Res.301) was introduced on April 11, 2000, by Congressman Peter DeFazio (D-OR) and the late Senator Paul Wellstone (D-MN).
Another U.S.-based group supporting these efforts is the Center for Environmental Economic Development, which acts "in solidarity with our international partners," including ATTAC France.
Other U.S. groups endorsing the Tobin Tax include:
AFL-CIO
Preamble Center
Alliance for Sustainable Jobs and the Environment
National Lawyers Guild
Global Exchange
50 years is Enough National Network
RAN (Rainforest Action Network)
Seventh Generation Fund
International Man of Mystery: Who is Maurice Strong?
Americans should be worried by the Commission's recommendations: for instance, that some UN activities be funded through taxes on foreign-exchange transactions and multinational corporations. Economist James Tobin estimates that a 0.5 per cent tax on foreign-exchange transactions would raise $1.5 trillion annually -- nearly equivalent to the U.S. federal budget.
The rest of the article has more on the individuals and groups pushing this.
Like he'd know? He hasn't been in country since the Carter administration.
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