Week of Holocaust events helps people remember the past

Rocky Mtn. Collegian Newspaper ^ | February 28, 2005 | Anne Farrell

[Grzegorz 246]

"If you are talking about German Nazis, only Jews..."

What about Gypsies ?

[It's me]

Well, I was going to say the same thing.

Thanks.

[chukcha]

No need to mix everyone together. What day do we remember the Massacre of Jews at the Katyn Forest?? by the Russians??

Somehow I detect lack of logic here. In the first sentence you agree that there is not need to mix everyone, and then you do start mixing everyone.

It is a known fact that Soviet NKVD killed Polish POWs at Katyn. Some of these POWs were ethnic Jews. However, they were killed not because they were Jewish, but because they were Polish POWs.

I am sure there is a day in Poland when they commemorate this event. There is a stature in Jersey City, NJ commemorating this event and Polish community has their meetings at that place.

I hope you realize that the antisemitic side of your brain is troubled that people commemorate Holocaust - a unique Jewish event. So, you need to open a discussion on communism vs Nazism, Stalin vs Hitler, mix few other things, etc.

[chukcha]

What about Gypsies ?

Hitler spoke about Gypsies only twice - it was not a big issue for him. Since Gypsies are technically Aryans, Nazis advocated elimination of only "halfbreed" - they were afraid of mixing German and Gypsy blood. And that was only in Germany.

On all other occupied territories, there was not a single policy for Gypsies extermination - sometimes Germans would kill only traveling Gypsies, sometimes just the opposite - settled Gypsies. Often it was left up to a local German authority's discretion. For example, Einsatzgruppen A, B, and C did not kill Gypsies, D did.

The only place where all Gypsies were targeted for elimination was Croatia.

[Grzegorz 246]

Really ? So why they killed 20.000 of them in one night ?

[chukcha]

Your implication is that they were killed 20,000 per night. It is not true.

In reality, Gypsies were sent to Auschwitz to "Gypsy family camp". From 19,000 to 23,000 Roma died there, mostly from epidemics. During August of 1944 when the camp was liquidated 3,000 were killed.

[chukcha]

This is Polish Press Agency press release http://www.pap.com.pl/auschwitz/materialy_romowie-en.pdf:

On August 2 in the evening a ban on leaving barracks was issued and despite all resistance Roma could muster 2,897 children, women and men were loaded onto trucks, transported to the No. 5 gas chamber and there murdered.

[Grzegorz 246]

"Gypsy family camp"

What ?

Gypsies were killed because they were Gypsies, just like Jews were killed because they were Jews and the fact that they don't have enough abilities and influence to write thousands books and make hundreds movies about it doesn't change it.

Most Gypsies lived in the countries, which were on the Nazi side during WW2. If they lived in Poland, they would be treated just like Polish Jews.

[chukcha]

"Gypsy family camp"

What ?

This term is used for the special Gypsy camp in Auschwitz. For example, here:

GENOCIDE OF EUROPEAN ROMA (GYPSIES), 1939-1945

[kingsurfer]

I noticed this thread while searching for some posts and links. You are mistaken in your opinions about the Romani people. They were targeted equally with the Jews and suffered an even greater percentage of deaths than the Jews. You may find the first link interesting. It is concerning the trend to minimise the Romani suffering in the Holocaust.


http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/lewy.htm

http://www.osi.hu/rpp/holocaust.html

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?ModuleId=10005219&Type=normal+article

http://www.remember.org/ina/victims.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porajmos

[kingsurfer]

I saw your arguement on this thread and wholeheartedly agree with you. I have some good links on the Romani Holocaust on post 30 you might want to look at. Particuraly the first one which is a great article by Ian Hancock.

[Grzegorz 246]

Thanks. I will read it later.

[chukcha]

Up until recently I would agree with you wholeheartedly. However, when you read more about it, you realize that the treatment of Jews and Gypsies by Germans was sometimes not the same.

For example, if you read link from my post 27, you will find that there was indeed a Gypsy "family" camp in Auschwitz - people were not separated and lived as families there. You cannot disagree with me that treatment of Gypsies there was different from that of Jews.

I have read you links. Interestingly, one of the complainers about "the unfair treatment of Romanies by Holocaust scholars " is ... Ward Churchill! The link - http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/lewy.htm

[kingsurfer]

Churchill was used as a source but Ian Hancock is an exemplary scholar of the Romani people.

It is true that in very isolated incidents there were Romanis that did have different treatment but this was not widespread. It should be noted that in certain circumstances Jewish people (and many other groups) got seperate treatment. An example of this is Jewish musicians who were used for propaganda music.

The only high-ranking Nazi who gave Romanis this treatment was Himmler, who was interested in a group of Romanis as his own personal experiment. Once the tide of the war changed he gave them up and sent them to the death camps. The Romani persecution began years before the Nazi's even came into power (Indeed this persecution remains to this day). Based on racial discrimination they were persecuted and eventually massacred en masse. Many nof those were killed by gun and not by Gas chambers. The reason for this is that they were considered an easy kill to the Nazi army. They would often shot the Romani instead of giving them access to the camps. They would not even get through the gate as they were considered so dirty.

As a memorandum to the Nuremburg Laws Romanis were included as a seperate category. Had my families blood lines been disclosed when they lived in occupied Guernsey then they would have been sent to the death camp. There is enough of this blood in me that even today I would be put on the train.

At the end of the day the numbers of those murdered speak for themselves. Up to 70% of the Romani population were murdered, which is even higher than the 50% of Jewish people. There is no doubt that they were targeted for genocide and the timeline shows that they have been targeted throughout the twentieth century and into the twenty first. Unlike the Jewish peoples the Romanis have not been as fortunate post war. They are a less cohesive and intergrated group (they are made up of many distinct groups). They have no definite homeland so no place to return to, although they are said to have descended from Punjab in India. They were never as assimilated as the Jewish in Europe and have never benefited from mainstream education. This means there are very few people to speak out for them. I am only one voice but I do try and raise awareness where I can.

[kingsurfer]

As a final point I should add that it is near impossible to categorise one groups suffering as signifacantly worse or better from anothers in cases like this. Both Jewish and Romani were targeted because of who they were and both suffered near total destruction of their people. As I say the Romani are not as fortunate as the Jewish post war. When a Jew gets attacked in Paris it is reported around the world but when a Romani (Incidentally they hate to be called Gypsies, it is akin to calling a jewa "kike", yet despite it being a slur it is commonly used to refer to them in the media. Can you imagine if a newspaper starting calling Jews "kike"!) gets attacked it is not even locally reported.

I am glad that the Jewish people have a homeland and a structure for making the world recognise them and I hope the Romanis get something similar in the future. In both cases no one else has een willing to fight for them. I hope the Romani do take the lead from the Jews and fight for their right not to be discriminated against.

[chukcha]

I'll be using 'Romani' term from now on.

And good luck with your efforts!