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Stephen C. Meyer Article: The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories
Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington ^ | January 26, 2005 | Stephen C. Meyer

Posted on 02/26/2005 4:45:01 PM PST by DannyTN

click here to read article


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To: DannyTN
Is this the new Evo strategy if you don't like the article start something like you did in post 36 & 33 and then try to get the thread banned by running to the moderators?

Look, son, if anything happens to your thread because *you* made false accusations that you refused to either retract or try to support, even when specifically requested to do so, don't come crying to *us*, and don't blame it on the "Evos". You've dug your own hole.

And I didn't "start" anything in posts #33 and #36. *You* started something by posting blatant, transparent falsehoods. In posts #33 and #36 I called you on them and pointed out that they were, indeed, falsehoods. If the truth hurts, I'm not terribly sorry.

121 posted on 02/26/2005 11:37:35 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: microgood
No, he has actually been using this one for quite a while.

Oh look, another false accusation by a creationist. Why am I not surprised?

Let's add you to the list: Support this slur, or retract it. Where exactly do you fantasize that I have "used this strategy for quite a while" in order to get threads banned? Or at all, for that matter?

Sorry, kid, but I don't try to get threads banned at all. I'd rather shine the light of information on them and show the lurkers just how devoid of knowledge and integrity you folks are, so that people will know to "consider the source" and be less likely to swallow the propaganda next time they hear it.

Like for instance, let's consider just a *small* sampling of the ways in which creationists have spread misrepresentations (from a previous post of mine):

Summary of the ability of the two creationists (Hovind and Havoc) to present information they *know* is false, and to *fail* to retract when reminded of their falsehoods, is presented here, along with links to all appropriate documentation.

This sort of behavior, unfortunately, is *typical* of creationists. Here, want dozens of more examples of their distortions? A few more for the road? Another? Still more, perhaps? How about even more? Ooh, here are some good examples. And there's lots more where that came from, like this and this and this and lots more here and *tons* here and countless more here and yet more here, a goodie... Wait, there's more over here, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., *ETC.*, etc., etc., etc., . How about 300 more creationist misrepresentations? Not enough, you say? Well then visit Creationist Lies and Blunders. Hey, what about Freeper metacognative's (he's a creationist) ability to accuse Daniel Dennett (evolutionary scientist) of wanting to put Christians into concentration camps for their beliefs, when Dennett was *actually* clearly writing about how RADICAL ISLAM may need to be contained? The ugly details here. Metacognative *still* shows no shame for his patently false accusation.

Tell me, microgood: Do you condone this behavior of creationists? Yes or no? Is lying for the "cause" of creationism acceptable to you?
122 posted on 02/26/2005 11:45:04 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: DannyTN
DannyTN: [Creationists have been seeing complete sh!t published in peer reviewed so-called scientific journals for decades.]

Ichneumon: [Oh really? Cite five examples. If you can't, then you've just exposed yourself as willing to shoot off at the mouth without substantiation.]

DannyTN: Just five?

Five would do.

1. Piltdown man

Not published in a peer-reviewed journal. Strike one

2. Haeckels embryos

Not published in a peer-reviewed journal. Strike two

3. Archaeoraptor

Not published in a peer-reviewed journal. Strike three

4. Brontosaurus

Not published in a peer-reviewed journal. Strike four

5. Lucy's flat face and upright posture

What about them? Sure, creationists make various false accusations against the "Lucy" specimens, but that hardly counts as support of "sh!t" in peer-reviewed journals. Strike five

6. Nebraska man

Not published in a peer-reviewed journal. Strike six

7. Java Man

The "Java Man" specimens are legimate Homo erectus specimens, false creationist accusations notwithstanding. No "sh!t". Strike seven

8. Orce man

There's a lively debate on whether the small fragment of bone found at Orce is from a human or not. The peer-reviewed journals carry this debate. The most recent papers appear to support the human side of the debate, such as the . You claimed to have examples of "complete sh!t", but this isn't it. It's just an open question. Strike eight

9. European Neanderthal dates

There's no doubt that Protsch was a fraud who just made up dates for specimens instead of properly testing them (and sold for cash a lot of specimens that didn't belong to him, and arranged to have a lot of Nazi historical documents shredded -- he was a real piece of work), but that doesn't make all dating of European Neanderthals "complete sh!t", as you so charmingly put it. Nonetheless, I'll give you this one if you can actually identify an article in a peer-reviewed journal which unwittingly used any date which Protsch screwed up.

10. Horse evolution series

There's nothing wrong with the horse evolution series, creationist lies to the contrary notwithstanding. Strike nine

Wow, nine strikes out of ten (and one ball still up the air until you provide actual citations) -- that batting average *sucks*. Are you sure you know what in the heck you're talking about?

Sorry I couldn't stop at five.

you couldn't even get off the ground. If you were playing baseball, you'd have gotten three "outs" for your team all by yourself and you'd be off the field.

Every day we see claims attributed to evolution by scientists,

Indeed we do, backed up by mountains of evidence and endless experiments.

who are clearly just speculating and have no proof to back up their claims whatsoever.

Sorry, son, but *you're* the one who utterly failed to support your claim when challenged. Scientists can actually support their claims, even though you can't. And your over-the-top lying about them (falsely accusing them of having "no proof to back up their claims 'whatsoever'") really does nothing to help your credibility at all. You really aren't allowed to just make up things and post them -- that's called lying.

123 posted on 02/27/2005 1:07:30 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: DannyTN
You constantly call Creationists liars

Because it's true, as I constantly document.

and you're the biggest one.

You have yet to identify a single lie I've allegedly told, much less made a case that I'm the "biggest" liar (and in order to be the "biggest" liar in comparison to the creationists, that's *really* saying something...)

So here's your last chance to do the honorable thing, if you're at all capable of it: Actually support your slander against me, or retract it. If not, we'll see what the moderators have to say about your behavior.

124 posted on 02/27/2005 1:10:03 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: jwalsh07
What is a good question but I find why to be ever so much more interesting. Why, for instance, does life try so dang hard to survive?

Things which "try hard" to survive are more likely to be prominent in the biosphere than things that don't.

125 posted on 02/27/2005 1:41:18 AM PST by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: DannyTN

1) Intelligent Design is not creationism. "
Agreed. However, one must ask why an intelligent designer would design us and then leave us with no contact.>

Because we are supposed to grow and focus on each other in this realm, God doesn't want blind automatons obsessed with Him.
While we're alive if contact with God was a constant given, we wouldn't strive and push ourselves nearly so much.
Nor would we cling and crave the contact of fellow humans so dearly.
I think it's much more interesting this way.


PAX


126 posted on 02/27/2005 2:59:13 AM PST by Selkie
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To: Ichneumon
1. Piltdown man : Not published in a peer-reviewed journal. Strike one

And you have the gall to call me a liar????

REPORTS ON THE FINDS: 1912-1917

 

Geological Society Papers

The "discoveries" of what had actually been fabricated and planted were reported to

the Geological Society of London in four papers, delivered by two or all three

of the major investigators: Charles Dawson, Arthur Smith Woodward, and Elliot

Smith.

 

On the Discovery of a Palæolithic Human Skull and Mandible.(1913)

Dawson, Woodward, and Elliot Smith, talk delivered Dec. 1912 at Geological Society on first finds

Supplementary Note on the Discovery (1914)

Dawson, Woodward and Elliot Smith on finds of 1913:

On a Bone Implement from Piltdown (Sussex)(1914)

Dawson and Woodward on the last find from the pit, an implement made from an elephant femur to look like a cricket bat

Fourth Note on the Piltdown Gravel (1917)

Woodward and Elliot Smith on "evidence of a second skull" at Sheffield Park

 

Relevant publications by

 

Charles Dawson

The Piltdown Skull. (Eoanthropus dawsoni ). (1913)

The "Restoratios" of the Bayeux Tapestry. (1907)

Prehistoric Remains. History of Hastings Castle (1909)

 

Arthur Smith Woodward.

Note on the Piltdown Man. (1913)

Woodward, Sherborne Horse's Head. et al. Letters to Nature   (1926)

The Second Piltdown Skull. (1933)

The Earliest Englishman. (1948)

B.B. G[ardiner] . Lady Smith Woodward's tablecloth. (1987)

+ letter from George Gaylord Simpson history of this tablecloth and of the hoax, with suggestions on suspects

On an Apparently Palæolithic Engraving.(1914)

Woodward on find of a horse's head, which was probably another hoax he fell for

C. B. Stringer, et al. Solution for the Sherborne Problem (1995)

not by Woodward, but relevant to this event - fake a recent one

On the Lower Jaw of an Anthropoid Ape [Dryopithecus].

Woodward providing background with description of a fossil primate (1914)

Keith, Smith, Woodward, Duckworth on The Fossil Anthropoid Ape from Taungs. (1925)

The Second Piltdown Skull. letter to Nature (1933)

The Earliest Englishman in its entirety (1948)

 

 

Lewis Abbott

This CD-ROM presents the only (though partial) anthology of Lewis Abbott publications.

The Section Exposed in the Foundations of the New Admiralty Offices. (1892)

Plateau Man in Kent. (1894 )

The New Oban Cave.(1895)

"diminutive Forms of Flint Implements from Hastings Kitchen Midden and Sevenoaks."

Worked Flints from the Cromer Forest Bed. (1897).

Primeval Refuse Heaps at Hastings. 2 parts, (1897)

ƒ On the Classification of the British Stone Age Industries (1911)

Pre-Historic Man: The Newly-Discovered Link in His Evolution. (1913)

The Piltdown Skull. Letter to the Editor of the Morning Post (1914)

The Discovery of British Palaeoglyphs 1914.

Abbott Letters

includes letter ( n.d.) from Ian Langham and 1981 and 1984 letters from Glyn Daniel

to C. Blinderman

 

Barlow ?

 

W. Ruskin Butterfield

Folk-names for Marine Fishes and Other Animals at Hastings. Hastings and St. Leonards Observer ( August 1913)

 

Teilhard de Chardin

ƒ The Case of Piltdown Man. (1920)

Status of Australopithecines. On the Zoological Position and the Evolutionary

Significance of Australopithecines (1953)

other hominds, but no mention of Piltdown

The Idea of Fossil ManKroeber, A. L. (1953). Only one very quick mention of Piltdown

K. Oakley and T. de Chardin. L'Oeuvre Scientique (1971)

correspondence between Kenneth Oakley and Pierre Teilhard de Chardin on Teilhard’s remembering Piltdown case, includes letter from K. Oakley to C. Blinderman

 

Arthur Conan Doyle

Challenger and Other Fossils. The Lost World (1912)

 

J. T. Hewitt

Note on the Natural Gas at Healthfield Station (1898)

 

Martin A. C. Hinton

The Pleistocene Mammalia of the British Isles and Their Bearing upon the Date of the Glacial Period Proceedings of the Yorkshire Geological Society (1926)

Piltdown mentioned in paper read before British Association on Pleistocene mammals

Arthur Keith

• 1913 debate in Nature between Elliot Smith and Arthur Keith:

Smith: The Piltdown Skull (October 2 ) + Keith: The Piltdown Skull and Brain Cast (October 16) + Smith. (October 30) + Keith (November 6) + Smith (November 13) + Keith (November 20). With article by Waterston disputing both.

Royal Anthropological Institute. Nature (Oct 1914)

Keith vs ASW on skull

The Significance of the Discovery at Piltdown.Bedrock: A Quarterly Journal of Scientific Thought . (1914)

Keith on Reconstruction. Nature (October 1914)

Review of Osborn Men of the Old Stone Age Man (1917)

Osborn "at sea as regards the discovery at Piltdown" because he believes skull is human but jaw chimpanzee

The Antiquity of Piltdown. Antiquity of Man (1925 ed)

Keith, Smith, Woodward, Duckworth on The Fossil Anthropoid Ape from Taugns. Nature (1925)

Revival of the Piltdown Controversy New Discoveries Relating to the Antiquity of Man (1931)

The Piltdown Man Discovery Unveiling of a Monolith Memorial Nature (1938)

Australopithecinae or Dartians. Nature (1947)

recommends "Dartian" rather than "Australopithicine" for fossil hominid

Piltdown Man: a Re-examination. Nature (1938) comment on Keith

Piltdown Recollections.An Autobiography (1950)

 

Grafton Elliot Smith

Presidential Address 1912 (September 1912)

• 1913 debate in Nature between Elliot Smith and Arthur Keith:

Smith: The Piltdown Skull (October 2 ) + Keith: The Piltdown Skull and Brain Cast (October 16) + Smith,. (October 30) + Keith, (November 6) + Smith,. (November 13) + Keith, (November 20). With article disputing both by Waterston.

The Cranial Cast of the Piltdown Skull. (September 1916)

The Problem of the Piltdown Jaw: Human or Sub-Human? (1917)

Primitive Man The Evolution of Man (1924) + The Origin of Man

Keith, Smith, Woodward, Duckworth on The Fossil Anthropoid Ape from Taugns, (1925)

The Discovery of the Men of Heidelberg and Piltdown

The Search for Man's Ancestors (1931)

Human Palæontology (1931)

on Smith talks:

Literary and Philosophical Society (December 1913)

Royal Society, February 19 (February 1914)

Literary and Philosophical Society (March 1916)

ƒ Man of the Dawn How Our Ancestors Live. Professor Elliot Smith in Sydney

(July 1914)

The Piltdown Skull. (1922 )

Smith on new reconstruction of skull showing it aligns with cranium

 

 

 

 

 

W.J. Sollas

Ancient Piltdown Ancient Hunters and their Modern Represenatives.. (1924 3rd ed.)

A. G. Thacker. Science Progress in the Twentieth Century

Human Palæontology and Anthropology (1915)

Woodward. Sherborne Horse's Head. Letter to Nature   (January 1926) answered by W. J. Sollas + C. J. Bayzand. The Palæolithic Drawing of a Horse from Sherborne, Dorset + R. Elliot Steel. Drawing of a Horse from Sherborne

+ E. A. Ross Jefferson. Letter on Sherborne Horse's Head.

 Back to the
MAP


127 posted on 02/27/2005 3:04:52 AM PST by DannyTN
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To: DannyTN

Hey Danny don't even bother with Ichneumon,
I checked his info page and it *appears* his one solitary source of release in life is pontificating on FR.

Posting a million links to one's own posts is quite bemusing.

Just ignore him.


PAX :-)


128 posted on 02/27/2005 3:19:00 AM PST by Selkie
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To: Ichneumon

Do you still hold the same view that Eta Carinae's "gamma rays could cause serious (or fatal) problems on Earth" (your exact words in quotes from a while back)

Because that's not what researchers at the Chandra Observatory have to say.


129 posted on 02/27/2005 3:32:08 AM PST by Selkie
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To: WildTurkey

Before I sign on to being a "YEC" wou'll have to tell me in whose hands the 24-hour clock was. Maybe it was spiralling into a black hole. That's a intellectual suggestion. btw.


130 posted on 02/27/2005 6:38:59 AM PST by bvw
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To: Ichneumon
[I'm not going to waste my time rebutting the entire thing, but if you'd like to point out the one or two parts you feel are most supportive of ID, I'll explain what's wrong with them.] . . . One thing for you to consider is how neo-Darwinism fails completely to account for the Cambrian explosion. . . .I'd be glad to "consider" that if you could actually make a case for such a claim. But neither Meyers article nor anything you've posted here actually supports such an assertion.

From the article:

Can neo-Darwinism explain the discontinuous increase in CSI that appears in the Cambrian explosion--either in the form of new genetic information or in the form of hierarchically organized systems of parts? We will now examine the two parts of this question . . .
In the first scenario, neo-Darwinists envision new genetic information arising from those sections of the genetic text that can presumably vary freely without consequence to the organism. . . The scenario has an overriding problem, however: the size of the combinatorial space (i.e., the number of possible amino acid sequences) and the extreme rarity and isolation of the functional sequences within that space of possibilities. Since natural selection can do nothing to help generate new functional sequences, but rather can only preserve such sequences once they have arisen, chance alone--random variation--must do the work of information generation--that is, of finding the exceedingly rare functional sequences within the set of combinatorial possibilities. Yet the probability of randomly assembling (or “finding,” in the previous sense) a functional sequence is extremely small. . . .
Other considerations imply additional improbabilities. First, new Cambrian animals would require proteins much longer than 100 residues to perform many necessary specialized functions. Ohno (1996) has noted that Cambrian animals would have required complex proteins such as lysyl oxidase in order to support their stout body structures. Lysyl oxidase molecules in extant organisms comprise over 400 amino acids. These molecules are both highly complex (non-repetitive) and functionally specified. Reasonable extrapolation from mutagenesis experiments done on shorter protein molecules suggests that the probability of producing functionally sequenced proteins of this length at random is so small as to make appeals to chance absurd, even granting the duration of the entire universe. . .
The selection/mutation mechanism faces another probabilistic obstacle. The animals that arise in the Cambrian exhibit structures that would have required many new types of cells, each of which would have required many novel proteins to perform their specialized functions. . .
Natural selection selects for functional advantage. But new cell types require whole systems of proteins to perform their distinctive functions.

Say what you want but the assertion that neo-Darwinism can't explain the Cambrian explosion, and why it can't, makes up a pretty big piece of the article. Did you read it? Did you understand it?

The third sentence -- Yet without functional criteria to guide a search through the space of possible sequences, random variation is probabilistically doomed." , however, is flat wrong.So please explain how "this is a pretty good criticism of non-design arguments".

Didn't you offer to explain what was wrong?

131 posted on 02/27/2005 6:57:40 AM PST by Tribune7
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To: Tribune7; All

Holy cow!

I guess you guys don't need a microbiologist to help stir the pot.


132 posted on 02/27/2005 7:52:26 AM PST by furball4paws (It's not the cough that carried him off - it's the coffin they carried him off in (O. Nash -I think))
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To: DannyTN; PatrickHenry; Selkie; Tribune7; Doctor Stochastic; microgood; WildTurkey; psipsistar; ...
[1. Piltdown man : Not published in a peer-reviewed journal. Strike one]

And you have the gall to call me a liar????

Yup, when the shoe fits, I sure do. Although I didn't in this particular case -- I disagreed that this example of yours was a valid example of what you were attempting to demonstrate. If you can actually provide support for your case, I'll be glad to revise this one item to a "hit" instead of a "strike". But your following list-o-links (none of which actually *work*) doesn't qualify:

REPORTS ON THE FINDS: 1912-1917

That's sweet and all, but the formal peer-reviewed journal submission process didn't begin until around the 1950's. Before that there was sometimes informal review by a panel before publication, but it was by no means consistent or even applied at all in many cases. Any professional journal publications before 1950 or so should be considered as unreviewed, unless there is existing documentation of such a review process for a particular article's publication process. See the following, for example, which is the most cited article on the history of the modern peer-review journal publication process:

The evolution of editorial peer review.

Burnham JC.

Department of History, Ohio State University, Columbus 43210-1367.

Practically no historical accounts of the evolution of peer review exist. Biomedical journals appeared in the 19th century as personal organs, following the model of more general journalism. Journal editors viewed themselves primarily as educators. The practice of editorial peer reviewing did not become general until sometime after World War II. Contrary to common assumption, editorial peer review did not grow out of or interact with grant peer review. Editorial peer review procedures did not spread in an orderly way; they were not developed from editorial boards and passed on from journal to journal. Instead, casual referring out of articles on an individual basis may have occurred at any time, beginning in the early to mid-19th century. Institutionalization of the process, however, took place mostly in the 20th century, either to handle new problems in the numbers of articles submitted or to meet the demands for expert authority and objectivity in an increasingly specialized world.

Publication Types:
PMID: 2406470 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Now, do you have any actual documentation that any of the "complete sh!t" (as you so charmingly put it) material about "Piltdown Man" was actually peer-reviewed in the sense that it means in modern terms? Because if not, I'm still going to have to mark this one as a "strike". You asserted that, "Creationists have been seeing complete sh!t published in peer reviewed so-called scientific journals for decades". Clearly you were claiming that "complete sh!t" regularly passes the peer-review process as we know it. Clearly your example of "Piltdown Man" has yet to be substantiated by you as an actual example of what you claimed. Feel free to actually document it, or retract it. Until then, you earn a "strike" for making yet another unsubstantiated accusation against science and its institutions.

Even if you manage to pull this one out, and I don't think you can, the best you've managed is to show just two examples over 80 years apart. If the creationists were that reliable in the long run, I'd be *ecstatic*. So your broad accusation which implied a constant run of such "sh!t" for "decades" is still a falsehood.

Maybe you should actually have some sort of valid case before you shoot your mouth off with accusations again.

Now let's look at a few of your (non-working) links:

REPORTS ON THE FINDS: 1912-1917
Dawson, Woodward, and Elliot Smith, talk delivered Dec. 1912 at Geological Society on first finds

A talk is not a publication in a peer-reviewed journal. Nice try.

Woodward, Sherborne Horse's Head. et al. Letters to Nature (1926)

Letters to a journal are not peer-reviewed publications. Nice try.

The Second Piltdown Skull. letter to Nature (1933)

Letter.

Lewis Abbott This CD-ROM presents the only (though partial) anthology of Lewis Abbott publications. The Section Exposed in the Foundations of the New Admiralty Offices. (1892) Plateau Man in Kent. (1894 ) The New Oban Cave.(1895) "diminutive Forms of Flint Implements from Hastings Kitchen Midden and Sevenoaks." Worked Flints from the Cromer Forest Bed. (1897). Primeval Refuse Heaps at Hastings. 2 parts, (1897) ƒ On the Classification of the British Stone Age Industries (1911)

What in the hell are these? The Piltdown specimen was discovered in 1912. None of these pre-1912 publications could have anything whatsoever to do with it. So what are you doing here -- posting irrelevant random links in the hopes that no one will notice that you're just padding out your "case" with irrelevancies? Nice try.

Significance of Australopithecines (1953) other hominds, but no mention of Piltdown

Um, okay... See the above note about irrelevant crap in your list.

Arthur Conan Doyle: Challenger and Other Fossils. The Lost World (1912)

ROFL!!!

Let me get this straight -- as "support" for your claim that peer-reviewed science journals published "sh!t" on Piltdown Man, you're listing A NOVEL BY ARTHUR CONAN DOYLE????? Let's look at the opening paragraph, shall we?
"MR. HUNGERTON, HER FATHER, REALLY WAS THE MOST TACTless person upon earth-a fluffy, feathery, untidy cockatoo of a man, perfectly good-natured, but absolutely centered upon his own silly self. If anything could have driven me from Gladys, it would have been the thought of such a father-in-law. I am convinced that he really believed in his heart that I came round to the Chestnuts three days a week for the pleasure of his company, and very especially to hear his views on bimetallism -- a subject upon which he was by way of being an authority."
Oh, yeah, *THAT* helps your case and credibility. ROFL!!! I repeat the question I find I have to frequently ask you -- are you sure you know what in the heck you're talking about?

The "Challenger and Other Fossils" you mention in this context is not an actual reference to real *fossils*, it's a playful poke at one of the NOVEL's colorful characters, Professor Challenger, who is rather an old fossil himself.

This novel (repeat *NOVEL*), by the way, is the basis for the following cheesy TV series:

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
The red-bearded fellow in the pith helmet in the upper right is Professor Challenger, by the way.

*THIS* IS THE KIND OF FLUFF YOU USE TO "SUPPORT" YOUR ACCUSATION? ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Try again when you might have a clue.

133 posted on 02/27/2005 7:56:15 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: furball4paws

Don't leave and miss the fun -- see post #133.
And the more the merrier.


134 posted on 02/27/2005 7:59:05 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon

Thanks for posting that poster. That's something I'd like to peer review.


135 posted on 02/27/2005 8:11:58 AM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: Tribune7; Selkie
Say what you want but the assertion that neo-Darwinism can't explain the Cambrian explosion, and why it can't, makes up a pretty big piece of the article.

Sure does, but Meyers arguments are fundamentally flawed. And they fail to provide anything even close to your absolute assertion that "neo-Darwinism fails completely to account for the Cambrian explosion". Even *Meyer* doesn't go so far as to make such absolute claim.

Did you read it? Did you understand it?

Absolutely. And moreoever, I know enough about the subject to spot the places where Meyer plays sleight-of-hand in order to make his case appear solid when it's not.

How about you? Do you have enough of a background to assess Meyer's assertions? Or do you just have to take them "on faith"? I suspect the latter, because everyone I know who actually *does* have a good background in these fields considers Meyer's article to be hand-waving pap.

I have to run in a few minutes to help a friend move some appliances to her new house I helped her get (hey, what was that some twit was saying about how my "one solitary source of release in life is pontificating on FR"? wrong again, kids), but I'll dissect that passage you quoted when I get back.

136 posted on 02/27/2005 8:14:24 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon; betty boop
Thank you for your reply!

The "primordial pizza" is a slang term *for* the hydrothermal vent scenario. Here you make it sound as if one has replaced the other, when in fact they are the same thing. Or have I misunderstood/missed your point here?

My point is that evidently the move to mineral clay scenarios changes the emphasis from a singular watery environment to a mixed or phased environment and that trend continues. For Lurkers:

Abiogenesis

[speaking of the Urey-Miller experiments being repeated with success] But the Earth's early atmosphere is nowadays thought to be neutral, consisting mostly of nitrogen and carbon dioxide, instead of hydrogen, ammonia, and methane (reducing), as had been suggested from cosmochemical grounds. Urey-Miller experiments performed with a neutral mixture are much less successful than those with a reducing mixture; however, the early Earth could easily have had reducing microenvironments, like hot springs and hydrothermal vents.

There is also the conundrum that bodies of water are poor places for the formation of biomolecules like proteins and nucleic acids, since the "primordial soup" is inevitably very dilute, making it difficult for molecules to "find" each other. This conundrum has led to the "primordial pizza" hypothesis of the origin of life on mineral surfaces like clay surfaces, which organic molecules can easily stick to, and which have catalytic properties that can easily assist in the formation of complex molecules. Günter Wächtershäuser has proposed that the Krebs Cycle (a.k.a. citric acid cycle, tricarboxylic acid cycle) had originated on such mineral surfaces, powered by iron-sulfur chemistry.

And while some biological molecules, like the smaller amino acids and nucleic-acid bases, are readily produced in Urey-Miller experiments, others, like sugars, are not. This means that nucleic acids are difficult to produce, since they contain the sugar ribose and its derivatives; this is a major difficulty with the otherwise-very-attractive "RNA world" hypothesis.

Thus, how to get from there to a complete self-reproducing system is still an unsolved problem, but this question is being actively researched.

Armen Y Mulkidjanian, Dmitry A Cherepanov, and Michael Y Galperin

Indeed, biochemical condensation reactions proceed with release of water, so that the presence of latter favors hydrolysis of biological polymers. Because of this feature, Bernal [27] and many researchers after him (as reviewed in ref. [10]) advanced the view that life has begun in tidal regions, so that condensation of primordial monomers proceeded under "fluctuating" conditions where the wet periods, enabling the exchange of reagents, alternated with dry ones, favoring the condensation reactions. The awareness of the potential danger of the UV damage, however, prompted other scientists to invoke a UV-protecting water layer (see e.g. ref. [19]), which apparently would impede the condensation reactions. More recently, several authors even moved the point of the life origin to the bottom of the ocean, where the reducing power of minerals and/or of hydrothermal vents was considered to be the energy source for the first condensation events [28,29]. It remained unexplained, though, how inorganic reductants could drive primordial condensation reactions in water in the absence of enzymes (see the discussion in refs. [30,31]).

In a sense, the absence of a consensus on a plausible mechanism for the origin and accumulation of the first RNA-like molecules has significantly hurt the development in the whole field and stimulated proliferation of the Panspermia hypothesis, not to mention various kinds of creationist ideas. It appears that our consideration of the UV irradiation as a positive, selective factor in primordial evolution may suggest a way out of the dead end. This view allows to place the cradle of life onto the sun-illuminated (semi) dry surface of the ancient Earth, as originally considered by Bernal [27]. Indeed, no other known energy source could compete with the UV component of the solar irradiation either in ability to serve simultaneously as both selective and driving force, or in continuity, strength, and access to the whole surface of Earth..

Multi-Phase Artificial Chemistry

The most accepted model for the origin of life has been proposed by [13,17] with the primordial ‘soup’. Hot deep sea vents as the birth place of life (the primordial ‘pizza’) were discussed as an interesting alternative [26. However, all these models need a prebiotic chemistry with complicated synthesis. As described in [20] and [21], they cannot occur in single, unpartitioned environment. A sequence of different environments would be important for the orgin of life, just as in the traditional organic synthesis. During such a synthesis a reaction mixture is subjected to certain conditions, then some products are extracted, purified, and/or crystallized, new reagents might be added, and the next step with new conditions begins. We can imagine an analogous situation in prebiotic chemistry, where the different conditions and steps are mimicked by different environments, i.e. phases like hot vents, the atmosphere, and ice, and intermittent evaporation, phase change, crystallization or filtration. This might mitigate the problems of complicated synthesis in prebiotic chemistry.

You also said wrt the fallacy of quantizing the continuum:

That wasn't the reason for the raising of the fallacy, nor were the participants in that thread "unwilling to accept" that there could be a definition of life vs non-life. The disagreement was over whether there were graduated states in between.

This particular fallacy was born at post 633 on the Plato thread. A review of the posts before and after make it very clear that the fallacy was raised due to an unwillingness of correspondents to accept there could be a definition of life v non-life/death.

At post 643, I summarized the effect of the fallacy – i.e. that it kills any investigation of abiogenesis (non-life to life) by declining to quantize either term. Prior to the fallacy, an agreement had been reached on a definition – summarized at 491, agreed at 522.


137 posted on 02/27/2005 8:46:26 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
A review of the posts before and after make it very clear that the fallacy was raised due to an unwillingness of correspondents to accept there could be a definition of life v non-life/death.

Again, I strongly disagree with that assessment. And yes, I've reviewed the posts.

At post 643, I summarized the effect of the fallacy – i.e. that it kills any investigation of abiogenesis (non-life to life) by declining to quantize either term.

And I've stated my objections to such a conclusion. Life and abiogenesis can still be analyzed and discussed, and if anything is *enhanced* by a recognition that life is not a "black or white" property, there exist "shades of gray" between "not living at all" and "life as we know it".

Again, the participants weren't "unwilling to accept" that there can be a definition of life, they were just objecting to the oversimplified "black-or-white" kind of definition which was being proposed.

Whether you agree or disagree with that particular objection, it does no good to misdescribe the actual discussion.

138 posted on 02/27/2005 8:55:34 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: DannyTN; Tribune7; Ahban; Alamo-Girl; Citizen Tom Paine; Dimensio; Doctor Stochastic; Heisenberg; ..
Oh, what the heck... If you can post the entire Meyer article, I'll post one of the rebuttals in full. I strongly encourage Meyer's fans in the ID camp to read it in its entirety. It does an excellent job of identifying many of Meyer's misrepresentations, errors, and rhetorical sleighst-of-hand, as well as providing a glimpse of the massive amount of scientific evidence which Meyer "forgot" to acknowledge (e.g. his failure to mention gene duplication should have been grounds for bouncing his paper out of peer-review *all by itself*):

Posted by Wesley R. Elsberry on August 24, 2004 05:56 PM

Review of Meyer, Stephen C. 2004. The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories. Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington 117(2):213-239.

by Alan Gishlick, Nick Matzke, and Wesley R. Elsberry

[The views and statements expressed here are our own and not necessarily those of NCSE or its supporters.]

“Intelligent design” (ID) advocate Stephen C. Meyer has produced a “review article” that folds the various lines of “intelligent design” antievolutionary argumentation into one lump.  The article is published in the journal Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington.  We congratulate ID on finally getting an article in a peer-reviewed biology journal, a mere fifteen years after the publication of the 1989 ID textbook Of Pandas and People, a textbook aimed at inserting ID into public schools.  It is gratifying to see the ID movement finally attempt to make their case to the only scientifically relevant group, professional biologists.  This is therefore the beginning (not the end) of the review process for ID.  Perhaps one day the scientific community will be convinced that ID is worthwhile.  Only through this route — convincing the scientific community, a route already taken by plate tectonics, endosymbiosis, and other revolutionary scientific ideas — can ID earn a legitimate place in textbooks. 

Unfortunately, the ID movement will likely ignore the above considerations about how scientific review actually works, and instead trumpet the paper from coast to coast as proving the scientific legitimacy of ID.  Therefore, we would like to do our part in the review process by providing a preliminary evaluation of the claims made in Meyer’s paper.  Given the scientific stakes, we may assume that Meyer, Program Director of the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture, the major organization promoting ID, has put forward the best case that ID has to offer.  Discouragingly, it appears that ID’s best case is not very good.  We cannot review every problem with Meyer’s article in this initial post, but we would like to highlight some of the most serious mistakes.  These include errors in facts and reasoning. Even more seriously, Meyer’s paper omits discussion or even citation of vast amounts of directly relevant work available in the scientific literature. 

Summary of the paper

Meyer’s paper predictably follows the same pattern that has characterized “intelligent design” since its inception: deny the sufficiency of evolutionary processes to account for life’s history and diversity, then assert that an “intelligent designer” provides a better explanation. Although ID is discussed in the concluding section of the paper, there is no positive account of “intelligent design” presented, just as in all previous work on “intelligent design”.  Just as a detective doesn’t have a case against someone without motive, means, and opportunity, ID doesn’t stand a scientific chance without some kind of model of what happened, how, and why.  Only a reasonably detailed model could provide explanatory hypotheses that can be empirically tested.  “An unknown intelligent designer did something, somewhere, somehow, for no apparent reason” is not a model.

Meyer’s paper, therefore, is almost entirely based on negative argument.  He focuses upon the Cambrian explosion as an event he thinks that evolutionary biology is unable to account for. Meyer asserts that the Cambrian explosion represented an actual sudden origin of higher taxa; that these taxa (such as phyla) are “real” and not an artifact of human retrospective classification; and that morphological disparity coincides with phyletic categories.  Meyer then argues that the origin of these phyla would require dramatic increases in biological “information,” namely new proteins and new genes (and some vaguer forms of “information” at higher levels of biological organization).  He argues that genes/proteins are highly “complex” and “specified,” and that therefore the evolutionary origin of new genes is so improbable as to be effectively impossible.  Meyer briefly considers and rejects several theories proposed within evolutionary biology that deal with macroevolutionary phenomena.  Having rejected these, Meyer argues that ID is a better alternative explanation for the emergence of new taxa in the Cambrian explosion, based solely upon an analogy between “designs” in biology and the designs of human designers observed in everyday experience.

The mistakes and omissions in Meyer’s work are many and varied, and often layered on top of each other.  Not every aspect of Meyer’s work can be addressed in this initial review, so we have chosen several of Meyer’s major claims to assess.  Among these, we will take up the Cambrian explosion and its relation to paleontology and systematics. We will examine Meyer’s negative arguments concerning evolutionary theories and the origin of biological “information” in the form of genes.

An expanded critique of this paper is in preparation.

Playing with Dynamite: The Cambrian Explosion

The Cambrian explosion is a standard topic for antievolutionists. There are several reasons for this: many taxa make their first appearance in the Cambrian explosion; the amount of time within the period of the Cambrian explosion is geologically brief; and we have limited evidence from both within and before the Cambrian explosion on which to base analysis. The first two factors form the basis of an antievolutionary argument that evolutionary processes are insufficient to generate the observed range of diversity within the limited time available. The last factor is a general feature of the sorts of phenomena that antievolutionists prefer: not enough evidence has yet accrued to single out a definitive scientific account, so it is rhetorically easy for a pseudoscientific “alternative” to be offered as a competitor. In Meyer’s closing paragraph, he mentions “experience-based analysis.”  The consistent experience of biologists is that when we have sufficient evidence bearing upon some aspect of biological origins, evolutionary theories form the basis of explanation of those phenomena (an example where much evidence has become available recently is the origin of birds and bird flight; see Gishlick 2004).

Problems with Meyer’s discussion of the Cambrian Explosion:

1. Meyer tries to evaluate morphological evolution by counting taxa, a totally meaningless endeavor for investigating the evolution of morphology. Most paleontologists gave up taxa-counting long ago and moved on to more useful realms of research regarding the Cambrian (see Budd and Jensen 2000). This is perhaps why most of Meyer’s citations for this section are to his own articles (themselves not in relevant scientific journals).

2. Meyer repeats the claim that there are no transitional fossils for the Cambrian phyla. This is a standard ploy of the Young-Earth Creationists (see Padian and Angielczyk 1999 for extended discussion of this tactic and its problems). Meyer shows a complete lack of understanding of both the fossil record and the transitional morphologies it exhibits (even during the Cambrian explosion; for a recent example of transitional forms in the Cambrian explosion see Shu et al. 2004) as well as the literature he himself cites. (This topic has been dealt with before, as with DI Fellow Jonathan Wells. See Gishlick 2002 at http://www.ncseweb.org/icons/icon2tol.html.)

3. Meyer attempts to argue that the “gaps” in the fossil record reflect an actual lack of ancestors for Cambrian phyla and subphyla.  To support this, Meyer cites some papers by University of Chicago reasearcher Mike Foote.  However, of the two papers by Foote cited by Meyer, neither deals with the Cambrian/Precambrian records (one concerns the Middle and Late Paleozoic records of crinoids and brachiopods, the other the Mesozoic record of mammal clade divergence), or even transitional fossils. Foote’s papers deal with issues of taxonomic sampling: How well does a fossil record sample for a given time period reflect the biodiversity of that period?  How well does a given fossil record pinpoint divergence times? Foote’s conclusions are that we have a good handle on past biodiversity, and that divergence times probably match appearance in the fossil record relatively closely. But Foote’s work utilizes organisms that are readily preserved.  It doesn’t deal with organisms that aren’t readily preserved, a trait that almost certainly applies to the near-microscopic, soft-bodied ancestors of the Cambrian animals.  According to Meyer’s argument, which doesn’t take into account preservation potential, microscopic metazoans such as rotifers must have arisen recently because they entirely lack a fossil record. Neither of Foote’s papers supports Meyer’s contention that the lack of transitional fossils prior to the Cambrian indicates a lack of ancestors.  Lastly, it appears that fossils of the long-hypothesized small, soft-bodied precambrian worms have recently been discovered (Chen et al. 2004).

Information and Misinformation

For some, “information theory” is simply another source of bafflegab. And that appears to be the only role Meyer sees for “information theory”. After brief nods to Shannon and algorithmic information theory, Meyer leaves the realm of established and accepted information theoretic work entirely.

1. Meyer invokes Dembski’s “specified complexity”/”complex specified information” (SC/CSI) as somehow relevant to the Cambrian explosion. However, under Dembski’s technical definition, CSI is not just the conjoint use of the nontechnical words “specified” (as in “functional”) and “complexity”, as Meyer erroneously asserts.  According to Dembski’s technical definition, improbability of appearance under natural causes is part of the *definition* of CSI.  Only after one has determined that something is wildly improbable under natural causes can one conclude that something has CSI.  You can’t just say, “boy, that sure is specific and complicated, it must have lots of CSI” and conclude that evolution is impossible.  Therefore, Meyer’s waving about of the term “CSI” as evidence against evolution is both useless for his argument, and an incorrect usage of Dembski (although Dembski himself is very inconsistent, conflating popular and technical uses of his “CSI,” which is almost certainly why Meyer made this mistake.  See here for examples of definitional inconsistency.).

2. Meyer relies on Dembski’s “specified complexity,” but even if he used it correctly (by rigorously applying Dembski’s filter, criteria, and probability calculations), Dembski’s filter has never been demonstrated to be able to distinguish anything in the biological realm — it has never been successfully applied by anyone to any biological phenomena (Elsberry and Shallit, 2003).

3. Meyer claims, “The Cambrian explosion represents a remarkable jump in the specified complexity or ‘complex specified information’ (CSI) of the biological world.” Yet to substantiate this, Meyer would have to yield up the details of the application of Dembski’s “generic chance elimination argument” to this event, which he does not do. There’s small wonder in that, for the total number of attempted uses of Dembski’s CSI in any even partially rigorous way number a meager four (Elsberry and Shallit, 2003).

4. Meyer claims, “One way to estimate the amount of new CSI that appeared with the Cambrian animals is to count the number of new cell types that emerged with them (Valentine 1995:91-93)” (p.217). This may be an estimate of something, and at least signals some sort of quantitative approach, but we may be certain that the quantity found has nothing to do with Dembski’s CSI. The quantitative element of Dembski’s CSI is an estimate of the probability of appearance (under natural processes or random assembly, as Dembski shifts background assumptions opportunistically), and has nothing to do with counting numbers of cell types.

Of Text and Peptides

1. Meyer argues that “many scientists and mathematicians have questioned the ability of mutation and selection to generate information in the form of novel genes and proteins” (p. 218).  He makes statements to this effect throughout the paper.  Meyer does not say who these scientists are, and in particular does not say whether or not any of them are biologists.  The origin of new genes and proteins is actually a common, fairly trivial event, well-known to anyone who spends a modicum of effort investigating the scientific literature.  The evolution of new genes has been observed in the lab, in the wild, inferred in great detail between closely-related modern species, and reconstructed in hundreds of cases by comparing the genomes from organisms sequenced in genome projects over the last decade (see Long 2001 and related articles, and below).

2. Meyer compares DNA sequences to human language.  In this he follows Denton’s (1986) Evolution: A Theory in Crisis.  Denton (1986) argued that meaningful sentences are isolated from each other: it is usually impossible to convert one sentence to another via a series of random letter changes, where each intermediate sentence has meaning. Like Denton (1986), Meyer applies the same argument to gene and protein sequences, concluding that they, like meaningful sentences, must have been produced by intelligent agents.  The analogy between language and biological sequence is poor for many reasons; starting with the most obvious point of disanalogy, proteins can lose 80% or more of their sequence similarity and retain the same structure and function (a random example is here). Let’s examine an English phrase where four out of five characters have been replaced with a randomly generated text string.  See if you can determine the original meaning of this text string:

Tnbpursutd euckilecuitn tiioismdeetneia niophvlgorciizooltccilhseema er [1]

Eighty percent loss of sequence identity is fatal to English sentences. Clearly proteins are much less specified than language.

3. Meyer cites Denton (1986) unhesitatingly.  This is surprising because, while Denton advocated in 1986 that biology adopt a typological view of life, he has abandoned this view (Denton 1998).  Among other things, Denton wrote, “One of the most surprising discoveries which has arisen from DNA sequencing has been the remarkable finding that the genomes of all organisms are clustered very close together in a tiny region of DNA sequence space forming a tree of related sequences that can all be interconverted via a series of tiny incremental natural steps.” (p. 276)  Denton now accepts common descent and disagrees with the “intelligent design” advocates who conjecture the special creation of biological groups, regularly criticizing them for ignoring the overwhelming evidence (Denton 1999).

4. Meyer’s case that the evolution of new genes and proteins is essentially impossible relies on just a few references from the scientific literature. For example, Meyer references Taylor et al. 2001, a paper entitled “Searching sequence space for protein catalysts” and available online at the PNAS website.  But Taylor et al.’s recommendation for intelligent protein design is actually that it should mimic natural evolution: “[A]s in natural evolution, the design of new enzymes will require incremental strategies…”.

There is a large mass of evidence supporting the view that proteins are far less “specified” than Meyer asserts.  Fully reviewing this would require an article in itself, and would be somewhat beside the point since Meyer’s claim is categorically disproven by the recent origin of novel genes by natural processes.  (Another way in which “experience-based analysis” leads one to conclusions other than those Meyer asserts.) However, some idea of the diversity of protein solutions to any given enzymatic “problem” is given at the NCBI’s Analogous Enzymes webpage, which includes hundreds of examples.  There is more than one way to skin a cat, and there are many more ways to evolve a solution to any given functional “problem” in biology.

The origin of novel genes/proteins

Meyer makes his case that evolution can’t produce new genes in complete neglect of the relevant scientific literature documenting the origin of new genes. 

1. A central claim of Meyer’s is that novel genes have too much “CSI” to be produced by evolution. The first problem with this is that Meyer does not demonstrate that genes have CSI under Dembski’s definition (see above). The second problem is that Meyer cites absolutely none of the literature documenting the origin of new genes.  For example, Meyer missed the recent paper in Current Opinion in Genetics and Development with the unambiguous title, “Evolution of novel genes.” The paper and 183 related papers can be found here.  Many other references can be found linked from here.

It is worth listing a few in-text to make crystal-clear the kinds of references that Meyer missed:

Copley, S. D. (2000). “Evolution of a metabolic pathway for degradation of a toxic xenobiotic: the patchwork approach.” Trends Biochem Sci 25(6): 261-265. PubMed

Harding, M. M., Anderberg, P. I. and Haymet, A. D. (2003). “‘Antifreeze’ glycoproteins from polar fish.” Eur J Biochem 270(7): 1381-1392. PubMed

Johnson, G. R., Jain, R. K. and Spain, J. C. (2002). “Origins of the 2,4-dinitrotoluene pathway.” J Bacteriol 184(15): 4219-4232. PubMed

Long, M., Betran, E., Thornton, K. and Wang, W. (2003). “The origin of new genes: glimpses from the young and old.” Nat Rev Genet 4(11): 865-875. PubMed

Nurminsky, D., Aguiar, D. D., Bustamante, C. D. and Hartl, D. L. (2001). “Chromosomal effects of rapid gene evolution in Drosophila melanogaster.” Science 291(5501): 128-130. PubMed

Patthy, L. (2003). “Modular assembly of genes and the evolution of new functions.” Genetica 118(2-3): 217-231. PubMed

Prijambada I. D., Negoro S., Yomo T., Urabe I. (1995). “Emergence of nylon oligomer degradation enzymes in Pseudomonas aeruginosa PAO through experimental evolution.” Appl Environ Microbiol. 61(5):2020-2. PubMed

Ranz, J. M., Ponce, A. R., Hartl, D. L. and Nurminsky, D. (2003). “Origin and evolution of a new gene expressed in the Drosophila sperm axoneme.” Genetica 118(2-3): 233-244. PubMed

Seffernick, J. L. and Wackett, L. P. (2001). “Rapid evolution of bacterial catabolic enzymes: a case study with atrazine chlorohydrolase.” Biochemistry 40(43): 12747-12753. PubMed

2. Meyer cites Axe (2000) as a counter to the evolutionary scenario of successive modifications of genes leading to new protein products. But Axe (2000) is not in any sense about “successive modifications”; Axe modified proteins in several locations at a time.  ID advocates love to cite certain Axe papers that indicate that functional proteins are rare in sequence space, but not others that indicate the opposite (Axe et al., 1996).  Axe apparently said in 1999 that his work had no relevance to intelligent design.

3. Meyer portrays protein function as all-or-nothing. But protein function is not all-or-nothing. Recent research highlights several evolutionary mechanisms “tinkering” with existing genes to arrive at new genes (Prijambada et al. 1995; Long 2001). But you won’t learn about that from Meyer.

4. As far as we can tell, Meyer uses the word “duplication” or something similar only twice in the entire 26-page article.  One of these usages is in the references, in the title of an article referring to centriole duplication.  The other is on p. 217, where Meyer introduces the genes-from-unnecessary DNA scenario. However, he subsequently ignores duplicated functional genes in this section and focuses on the origin of genes from noncoding DNA. Duplication really belongs with Meyer’s section on the second evolutionary scenario, the origin of genes from coding DNA.  There, Meyer argued that the origin of new genes from old genes was impossible because such a process would mess up the function of the old genes.  If he had put it there, he would have revealed the existence of the extremely simple, and already well-known, solution to the problem that he posed, namely, gene duplication (Lynch and Conery, 2000, 2003).

5. Meyer relies heavily on a new paper by Axe published in the Journal of Molecular Biology. Meyer alleges that Axe (2004) proves that, “the probability of finding a functional protein among the possible amino acid sequences corresponding to a 150-residue protein is similarly 1 in 10^77.” But Axe’s actual conclusion is that the number is “in the range of one in 10^77 to one in 10^53” (Axe 2004, p. 16). Meyer only reports the lowest extreme. One in 10^53 is still a small number, but Meyer apparently didn’t feel comfortable mentioning those 24 orders of magnitude to his reader.  A full discussion of Axe (2004) will have to appear elsewhere, but it is worth noting that Axe himself discusses at length the fact that the results one gets in estimating the density of functional sequences depend heavily on methods and assumptions.  Axe uses a fairly restricted “target” in his study, which gives a low number, but studies that just take random sequences and assay them just for function — which Meyer repeatedly insists is all that matters in biology — produce larger numbers (Axe 2004, pp. 1-2). [2]

We would like to pose a challenge to Meyer.  There are a large number of documented cases of the evolutionary origin of new genes (again, a sample is here).  We challenge Meyer to explain why he didn’t include them, or anything like them, in his review.  We invite readers to wait to see whether or not Meyer ever addresses them at a later date and whether he can bring himself to admit that his most common, most frequent, and most central assertion in his paper is wildly incorrect and widely known to be so in the scientific literature.  These points should not be controversial: even Michael Behe, the leading IDist and author of Darwin’s Black Box, admits that novel genes can evolve: “Antibiotics and pesticide resistance, antifreeze proteins in fish and plants, and more may indeed be explained by a Darwinian mechanism.” (Behe 2004, p. 356)

If we might be permitted a prediction, Meyer or his defenders will respond not by admitting their error on this point, but by engaging in calculated obfuscation over the definition of the words “novel” and “fundamentally.”  They will then assert that, after all, yes, evolution can produce new genes and new information, but not “fundamentally new genes.”  They will never clarify what exactly counts as fundamental novelty.

Morphological novelty

The origin of morphological novelty is also a large topic with an extensive literature, but unfortunately we can only discuss a limited number of topics in any depth here.  To pick two issues, Meyer fails to incorporate any of the work on the origin of morphological novelties in geologically recent cases where evidence is fairly abundant, and Meyer also fails to discuss the crucial role that cooption plays in the origin of novelty.  Below is a small sampling of the kinds of papers that Meyer would have had to address in this field in order to even begin to make a case that evolution cannot produce new morphologies:

Ganfornina M. D., Sanchez D. 1999. “Generation of evolutionary novelty by functional shift.” Bioessays. 21(5):432-9. PubMed

Mayr, E. 1960. “The Emergence of Evolutionary Novelties.”  in Evolution After Darwin: Volume 1: The Evolution of Life: Its Origin, History, and Future, Sol Tax, ed.  The University of Chicago Press, Chicago, IL. pp. 349-380.

Pellmyr, O. and Krenn, H. W., 2002. “Origin of a complex key innovation in an obligate insect-plant mutualism.” PNAS. 99(8):5498-5502. PubMed

Prum, R. O. and Brush, A. H., 2002. “The evolutionary origin and diversification of feathers.” Q Rev Biol. 77 (3), 261-295. PubMed

True, J. R. and Carroll, S. B., 2002. “Gene co-option in physiological and morphological evolution.” Annu Rev Cell Dev Biol. 18, 53-80. PubMed

Mayr’s paper in particular is a well-known introduction to the topic.  He emphasized the important role of change-of-function for understanding the origin of new structures.  In his conclusion he wrote,

“The emergence of new structures is normally due to the acquisition of a new function by an existing structure.  In both cases the resulting ‘new’ structure is merely a modification of a preceding structure.  The selection pressure in favor of the structural modification is greatly increased by a shift into a new ecological niche, by the acquisition of a new habit, or by both.  A shift in function exposes the fully formed ‘preadapted’ structure to the new selection pressure.  This, in most cases, explains how an incipient structure could be favored by natural selection before reaching a size and elaboration where it would be advantageous for a new role.” (p. 377-378)

Mayr wrote this in 1960, at the sprightly age of 56, but it applies rather well to discoveries about the origin of new genes and new morphological structures made in the last few decades.  Most new genes and new structures are derived by change-of-function from old genes and old structures, often after duplication.  Many other terms are used in the evolutionary literature for this process (Mayr’s “preadaptation”, replaced by “exaptation” by Gould; cooption; functional shift; tinkering; bricolage; see e.g. the commonly-cited essay by Jacob 1977 for a discussion of the “tinkering” analogy for evolution), but none of them appear in Meyer’s essay. 

The Power of Negative Thinking

Negative argumentation against evolutionary theories seems to be the sole scientific content of “intelligent design”. That observation continues to hold true for this paper by Meyer.

1. Meyer gives no support for his assertion that PE proponents proposed species selection to account for “large morphological jumps”. (Use of the singular, “punctuated equilibrium”, is a common feature of antievolution writing. It is relatively less common among evolutionary biologists, who utilize the plural form, “punctuated equilibria”, as it was introduced by Eldredge and Gould in 1972.)

2. Meyer makes the false claim that PE was supposed to address the problem of the origin of biological information or form. As Gould and Eldredge 1977 noted, PE is a theory about speciation.  It is an application of Ernst Mayr’s theory of allopatric speciation — a theory at the core of the Modern Synthesis — to the fossil record.  Any discussion of PE that doesn’t mention allopatric speciation or something similar is ignoring the concept’s original meaning.

3. Meyer also makes the false claim that PE was supposed to address the origin of taxa higher than species. This class of error was specifically addressed in Gould and Eldredge 1977.  PE is about the pattern of speciation observed in the fossil record, not about taxa other than species.

4. Meyer makes the false claim that genetic algorithms require a “target sequence” to work. Meyer cites two of his own articles as the relevant authority in this matter. However, when one examines these sources, one finds that what is cited in both of these earlier essays is a block of three paragraphs, the content of which is almost identical in the two essays. Meyer bases his denunciation of genetic algorithms as a field upon a superficial examination of two cases. While some genetic algorithm simulations for pedagogy do incorporate a “target sequence”, it is utterly false to say that all genetic algorithms do so. Meyer was in attendance at the NTSE in 1997 when one of us [WRE] brought up a genetic algorithm to solve the Traveling Salesman Problem, which was an example where no “target sequence” was available.  Whole fields of evolutionary computation are completely overlooked by Meyer. Two citations relevant to Meyer’s claims are Chellapilla and Fogel (2001) and Stanley and Miikkulainen (2002). (That Meyer overlooks Chelapilla and Fogel 2001 is even more baffling given that Dembski 2002 discussed the work.) Bibliographies for the entirely neglected fields of artificial life and genetic programming are available at these sites:

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~econec/alife.html
http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~wbl/biblio/gp-bibliography.html.

A bibliography of genetic algorithms and artificial neural networks is available here.

On the Other Hand: the View Meyer Fails to Consider

When Meyer states that a massive increase in information is required to create all the body plans of the living “phyla” he is implying that evolution had to go from a single celled creature to a complex metazoan in one step, which would be impossible. But the origin of metazoans is not a case of zero to metazoan instantly. Rather, it involves a series of incremental morphological steps.  These steps become apparent when the evolution of the major clades of metazoan life is viewed in a phylogenetic context. The literature using this phylogenetic perspective is extensive if Meyer wanted to investigate it (for example see Grande and Rieppel eds. 1994, Carroll 1997, Harvey et al. eds. 1996). Certainly an acknowledgment of such literature is crucial if one is going to discuss these topics in a scholarly article, even if it was to criticize it. No discussion of an evolutionary innovation would be complete without reference to the phylogeny, and yet we find not one in Meyer’s 26 page opus.

Perhaps the glaring absence of phylogenies owes to Meyer’s lack of acceptance of common descent, or perhaps it is because when the relationships of the ‘phyla’ are seen in a phylogenetic context, one readily sees that all of the complex developmental and morphological features that diagnose the extant clades need not arise simultaneously. Rather, they are added incrementally. First one cell type, then three, multiple body layers, and bilateral symmetry. At this point you have a “worm” and all the other bauplans are basically variations on the worm theme. There are worms with guts, and worms with muscles, worms with segments, worms with appendages, and even worms with a stiff tube in them (this last would be us).

Missing from Meyer’s picture is any actual discussion of the origins of metazoan development. Reading Meyer, one would think that it is a giant mystery, but the real mystery is why Meyer does not reference this huge area of research.

Meyer implies that the lack of specificity of development in genes is a surprising problem for evolution, yet it is well known and it is widely recognized that development is coordinated by epigenetic interactions of various cell lineages. Meyer treats this fact as if it were some mysterious phenomenon requiring a designer to input information. But, just as the ordered structure of convection cells in is boiling pot of water is not a mystery to physicists even though it is not specified by the shapes of the component water molecules, neither are developmental programs to biologists. The convection cells are an emergent property of the interactions of the water molecules, just as the growth of organismal form is an emergent property of the interactions of cell lineages.

It is thought that metazoan development arose by competition between variant cell lineages that arose during ontogeny, and thus its organization remains in the epigenetic interactions of the various cell lineages (Buss 1987). This was extensively documented by Leo Buss in 1987, but Meyer somehow failed to mention this seminal work on the origin of metazoan development.

Understanding the interactions of lineages and their various reciprocal inductions is crucial to understanding the evolution of metazoan development and bodyplans. The study of this forms the basis for the entire field of evolutionary and developmental biology, Meyer acts like this field doesn’t even exist, while citing sparingly from some of its works. Also absent is any discussion of the difference between sorting and selection (see Vrba and Gould 1986). The difference is crucial: sorting at one level does not imply selection, but rather may be the result of selection at an entirely different level of the organismal hierarchy.  Meyer appears to be completely unaware of this distinction when criticizing the inability of selection to create new morphologies. In some cases novelty at one level in the hierarchy may result when selection occurs somewhere else in the hierearchy: the emergent morphology may actually be the result of a sorting cascade, rather than direct selection. The evolution of metazoan bodyplans involved an exchange between selection at the level of the individual and at the level of the cell lineage, which was sorted through developmental interactions (Buss 1987) .

Finally, any discussion of development and evolution would not be complete without dealing with the effects of heterochrony on form, and here too we find relevant citations glaringly absent despite the prominent place of heterochrony in the literature going back to de Beer. This is 60 years of research missed by Meyer. (The oversight is worse when one considers various contributing ideas in development that date back to von Baer.)

Meyer repeatedly appeals to the notion of an ur-cell metazoan ancestor that had all the genetic potentiality of the different metazoan bauplanes. The reference to this hypothetical super-ancestor is as popular with creationists as it is erroneous to biologists. While biologists have at times proposed a need for such an ur-cell, this is no longer particularly in vogue, because the recognition of hierarchy and epigenetic processes and has removed the need for an all-encompassing ancestor.

There are many hierarchies that need to be separated. There is the phylogenetic hierarchy (the order of character acquisition in time), the developmental hierarchy (the order of cell differentiation) and the structural hierarchy (the position of various parts in an organism). Meyer muddles all of these together and treats them like they are all the same thing, but they are not. 

A Long Walk Off a Short Peer Review

The Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington (PBSW) is a respected, if somewhat obscure, biological journal specializing in papers of a systematic and taxonomic nature, such as the description of new species. A review of issues in evolutionary theory is decidedly not its typical fare, even disregarding the creationist nature of Meyer’s paper. The fact that the paper is both out of the journal’s typical sphere of publication, as well as dismal scientifically, raises the question of how it made it past peer review. The answer probably lies in the editor, Richard von Sternberg. Sternberg happens to be a creationist and ID fellow traveler who is on the editorial board of the Baraminology Study Group at Bryan College in Tennessee. (The BSG is a research group devoted to the determination of the created kinds of Genesis. We are NOT making this up!) Sternberg was also a signatory of the Discovery Institute’s “100 Scientists Who Doubt Darwinism” statement. [3] Given R. v. Sternberg’s creationist leanings, it seems plausible to surmise that the paper received some editorial shepherding through the peer review process. Given the abysmal quality of the science surrounding both information theory and the Cambrian explosion, it seems unlikely that it received review by experts in those fields. One wonders if the paper saw peer review at all.

Although this critique has focused on the scientific problems with Meyer’s paper, it may be worth briefly considering the political dimensions, as the paper is likely to become part of the ID creationists’ lobbying machine.  The paper has been out since early August, so it is somewhat puzzling that the Discovery Institute and similar groups have yet to publicize this major event for ID theory. Are they embarrassed at its sub-par (even by ID standards) content, or are they are waiting to spring it on some unsuspecting scientist at a future school board meeting or state legislature hearing?  Regardless, once the press releases start to fly, responses to the paper should be careful to not assume facts not in evidence (such as the review, or lack thereof, of Meyer’s paper), and should be careful to distinguish between issues that are scientifically important and unimportant.  Whether or not editorial discretion was abused in order to enable “intelligent design” to make a coveted appearance in the peer-reviewed scientific literature is not currently known, and is at any rate not the most important issue. The important issue is whether or not the paper makes any scientific contribution: does it propose a positive explanatory model?  If the paper is primarily negative critique, does it accurately review the science it purports to criticize?  The fact that a paper is shaky on these grounds is much more important than the personalities involved.  Intemperate responses will only play into the hands of creationists, who might use these as an excuse to say that the “dogmatic Darwinian thought police” are unfairly giving Meyer and PBSW a hard time.  Nor should Sternberg be given the chance to become a “martyr for the cause.”  Any communication with PBSW should focus upon the features that make this paper a poor choice for publication: its many errors of fact, its glaring omissions of relevant material, and its misrepresentations of the views that it does consider.

The ultimate test of the value of a peer-reviewed paper is whether it spawns actual research and convinces skeptics. Applicability and acceptance in science, not in politics, is the ultimate test of proposed scientific ideas. As we have stated before, all ID advocates have to do is demonstrate to scientists that they have something that works. They need a positive research program showing scientists that ID has more to offer than “Poof, ID did it.”

Conclusion

There is nothing wrong with challenging conventional wisdom — continuing challenge is a core feature of science.  But challengers should at least be aware of, read, cite, and specifically rebut the actual data that supports conventional wisdom, not merely construct a rhetorical edifice out of omission of relevant facts, selective quoting, bad analogies, knocking down strawmen, and tendentious interpretations.  Unless and until the “intelligent design” movement does this, they are not seriously in the game. They’re not even playing the same sport.

Postscript

As we have said, the errors in this paper are too numerous to document more than a few here.  We invite readers to find more mistakes and misrepresentations in this work and add them to our comments section, and/or email them to us to add to the full online critique.

Endnotes

1. The original phrase was: “The origin of biological information and the higher taxonomic categories”, the title of Meyer’s paper.  The random text was generated at the random text generator webpage: http://barnyard.syr.edu/monkey.html…

2. Page numbers for Axe (2004) in this section refer to the in press, pre-publication version of Axe’s paper availabe on the JMB website: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jmb.2004.06.058.

3. As mentioned previously, Meyer is the directory the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture. Meyer’s reported affiliation on the PBSW paper is to Palm Beach Atlantic University, which requires all faculty to affirm the following statement:

To assure the perpetuation of these basic concepts of its founders, it is resolved that all those who become associated with Palm Beach Atlantic as trustees, officers, members of the faculty or of the staff, must believe that man was directly created by God.

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139 posted on 02/27/2005 9:00:31 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon; betty boop
Thanks for your reply!

Again, the participants weren't "unwilling to accept" that there can be a definition of life, they were just objecting to the oversimplified "black-or-white" kind of definition which was being proposed.

Whether you agree or disagree with that particular objection, it does no good to misdescribe the actual discussion.

I leave it to the Lurkers to decide whether or not I have "misdescribed" the actual discussion.

If there can be an agreement among the correspondents as to the starting point (non-life) and the ending point (life) - then the Freeper investigation can be resumed - until then, abiogenesis is a moving target, and the Freeper research project remains dead-in-the-water.

Likewise, until a definition of life v non-life/death is ascertained - I assert that all theories of abiogenesis will not be taken seriously.

140 posted on 02/27/2005 9:25:20 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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