Report from Anti-gun conference in Phoenix

The following is original reporting on the Anti-Gun panel held at St. Joseph Hospital in Phoenix, AZ on January 18, 2005. It was reported in four segments by Rick DeStephens to AZRKBA. It is fairly long, but offers insight into the anti-freedom types thoughts, or lack thereof.

I'd heard that there was going to be a gun-grabber festival at St. Joseph Hospital some time ago. It was said that this was a follow-up to the gun-grabber fest held at the Burton Barr Library a few years ago, which featured an attendance by then Arizona Attorney General Janet Napolitano. Janet didn't deem our own Gun Safety forum held in the same venue a few months later to be worthy of her time. By the same token, I didn't know whether this would be a waste of my time or what I would do there. But I was compelled to come like a fly on stink. I sat through the whole thing but decided to skip the pricey buffet table full of finger foods so that I could head on home to be with my family.

I arrived at the Goldman auditorium, a medium to smallish lecture hall several minutes early to find the speakers and organizers bustling about and wondering why there were only five people in attendance so close to the 3pm start time. The literature informed that the event was being sponsored by St. Joe's Hospital, Barrow's Neurological Clinic, Arizonans for Gun Safety, and, sadly, the Arizona Department of Health Services (one of their stats-crunchers had randomly taken the seat next to me.) I sat in the fifth row and then moved to the second row to hear the pre-talk talk amongst the participants. The star of the show was anti-gun researcher, David Hemenway, imported all the way from his liberal home of Boston. Dr. Hemenway's Home page I believe it was Carol Poore, ASU Vice Provost of West Campus Public Affairs who asked Dr. Hemenway, [add quote marks] "What is the highest state in terms of gun violence? And Washington D.C. doesn't count." Odd way to phrase a question since D.C. with its relatively small population (when compared to monstrous Chicago), leads the league in RBI's (Rogues Battering Individuals) and homicides per 100,000 population. Dr. Hemenway went into a calm tirade against "the Red States". I was amused.

Another question passed his way. I didn't hear it all but it had something to do with their long-term game plan. Dr. H responded, "Pediatricians are the most progressive Injury centers are big, big [when it comes to sources of research data]." It just shows you that they wish to focus on damage done rather than to whom and why. It didn't matter to them that criminals were killing criminals and that the good guys, including cops were killing criminals, but mostly warding off crime. Their endpoint was death and injury. Don't confuse them with context.

The show began some 15-20 minutes late as they waited for the room to fill up. It didn't. Even after an hour of steady trickling, the smallish auditorium was at best 30% full. And many of them were senior citizens in or passed their 70s. Perhaps the anti-gun movement will lose by natural attrition. Also missing was the press. One organizer asked if there were any TV vans outside. None. I could see no one that resembled a print journalist in the lecture hall. Good. Or maybe, too bad. Had there been press there for this puny event, I could now be writing with righteous indignation about the fact that our October, 2004 CCW Banquet (10 year anniversary) at the Shriners Auditorium that featured nationally known speakers, 400 guests, prime rib, and freakin' paintball and airsoft ranges only got NPR (which didn't air the subject because, according to an NPR insider, "NPR only does hit pieces on guns" ) and the Chicago Tribune which did a relatively okay job of not slamming us, although it trivialized gun owners with talk of "fashion statements" and suitcoat tayloring tips. Perhaps the press is tired of messing with the issue for the time being.

The first of four speakers was Reanne (Reee-anne) Evans whose background is in Public Relations (a big PR wonk) and was president for the political action committee of Arizonans for Gun Safety (AGS). For good measure, she was formerly of the leftist Children's Action Alliance, the group that so often opposes our right to self defense. She had little of anything important to say, but she did mention her hope of closing the gun show loophole and reinstating the assault weapon ban. She said that this event was meant to move forward from the first Gun Safety forum (Burton Barr Library in 2000(?)). Her remarks were thankfully short. I was getting bored.

Next up was David Hemenway himself. Not only is he from Harvard, but he is a Soros Justice Fellow. Doesn't that speak volumes? As well, he admitted, with pride, that he worked with Ralph Nader back in the halcyon days of the 1960's. The Chevy Corvair has his boot print on it. Dr. H. has a disturbing resemblance to NBC's Law & Order actor, Sam Waterston: Sam plays the anti-gun prosecutor, ironically.

Hemenway began with a standard, though very quickly presented, PowerPoint slide show with what essentially was different ways of looking at body counts. Suicides, 32K per year. Homicides, 17K. Number of homicides with guns 10K. He labeled these as preventable. I was having difficulty keeping up, and his audience didn't really care about nuance or analysis. He stated that guns were the most effective method to commit suicide. Other, less effective methods, were poisoning, jumping, etc. Hemenway didn't dare say that what it really represented was a continuum of methods that separate those who really want to die and those who don't. No mention was made of non-gun Japan and it's peculiarly high suicide rate.

Who were these 32K/17K? No discussion of demographic indicators which a statistician or epidemiologist or criminologist would demand. Hemenway employed an oft-used technique. He didn't thuroughly describe these people because their relative anonymoty can lead the soft-headed to think that these killers are Joe Average, nothing special. More later. Just as in my field of disease epidemiology, we often have to mention hard truths such as blacks are disproportionately at risk for getting preventable sexually transmitted disease. Blacks make up 3.5% of Arizona's population but account for 12% of new HIV cases. Same goes for syphilis. And this is nation wide.

You could imagine that some folks take offense to this information. As we know, blacks account for a disproportionate number of homicides (usually killing other blacks). Take away that demographic and the rest of the country looks like Canada: essentially non-violent. Take away Americans mega-metropolitan areas and the same thing happens. Michael Moore (unlike Hemenway) in his mockumentary, "Bowling for Columbine" asked why Canada, with all it's guns, has such a low homicide rate. The Canadians (who still don't lock their doors) and American folks (who do that and much more) whom he interviewed all pointed to the answer, piece by piece ("why does "COPS" always show black people getting arrested?) Those of you who are of the gun rights mindset would have been talking to the screen just as I did. But Moore couldn't get himself to connect the dots of this demographic puzzle.

Additionally, not only was this hospital audience blissfully in the dark about race and socio-economic data, no one bothered to ask if these people who were committing these violent felonies were already violent felons. As we know through the work of Kates, Kleck, Lott, Wright, Rossi, etc, 75% of homicides are committed by adult felons with an average of six years of felony history and they kill other felons 71% of the time. Like-minded juvenile offenders commit the lion's share of the remainder. By omitting this information, agenda-based researchers like Hemenway lead the eager audience to believe that those doing the killing are just like the rest of us. They are not. When I presented this to a co-worker who attended this event, she said, Most homicides are committed by people who know each other. I responded, You don't think felons and gang members don't know each other? She was not pleased.

Hemenway also illustrated a Five year span of gun accidents among kids (I think he said aged 0-14 years of age), totaling 110, which is 22 per year. Hemenway would do better to focus his energies on bicycle accidents. Who were these kids? Did they shoot each other? Were they shot by adults? How many were hunting accidents? Hemenway didn't say. Hemenway derided the Education and Enforcement model of the NRA ("Eddie Eagle" and "Enforce the Laws on the Books"). But I wondered what force of nature was responsible for accidents with guns declining to mere fractions of their former incidence over the last 100 years? Hemenway wanted to use the consumer products model as he pointed to the lowered vehicular death rate. He cited seat belt legislation (he said had "enraged libertarians"), crush zones, collapsible steering columns, speed humps, traffic slowing devices. For some reason he didn't mention aggressive enforcement of drunk driving laws.

Hemenway said he wanted magazine safeties on guns, loaded chamber indicators, gun personalization. Of course, when the FBI put out bids for their new pistol a few years ago, they specifically said they didn't want any of these devices. The bid winner? A 1911-style pistol from Springfield Armory.

Hemenway also called for gun tracing, even though there has been a multitude of congressonal testimony by BATF and FBI stating that it is of near zero value in solving crimes. Hemenway also wants to regulate the secondary market, ie gun shows, newpapers, internet, brother to brother, father to daughter, even though studies from Jacob & Potter to General Accounting Office to even Cook & Ludwig show that the Brady Law has not reduced crime.

Additionally, the good doctor calls for licensing and registration, storage laws and training, even though there is no link to reduced crime or misuse and that these laws have been used to restrict availability would-be buyers (New York, Chicago, etc) and access in self defense situations (Washington D.C.) All of this, even the CDC says has shown to be inconclusive despite their review of 550 peer review journals, 100-some studies and 50-some books. Hemenway and the CDC want more tax dollars poured down the same research rat hole just to make sure. One might label this "social welfare for social scientists," but that would be mean.

His last quote of his presentation: "Lots of reasonable policies can reduce the problem."

After Dr. David Hemenway's agenda-based stats presentation, it was time for Arizona State University's Dr. Mary Rimsza, the current Chair of the Childhood Fatality Review Team, among other things.

She had very little to say, but her slide show began with a well-known collage-type picture of 1950s-vintage TV and movie cowboys which had Clint Eastwood, John Wayne, Chuck Conners, Lone Ranger, etc, PhotoShopped together, dressed in their characters' costumes, side arms and long arms presented for all to see. Dr. Mary said that the picture represented the attitude in Arizona. Guffaw. The next picture was of a backyard pool surrounded by a fence mandated by city code (see, Arizona = pools too). Gee, I wonder what she's going to talk about? Yet another five-year period graph likely because a single year's numbers were not graphic enough. Pools: 187 kids died. Guns 307 kids in five years. Was that nationwide? She didn't say.

Fortunately, she had little else to say, or maybe I nodded off for a few minutes. There was no there, there.

Jerry Oliver, the famous black former Chief of Police from Richmond, Pasadena, and Detroit. Jerry is now with the Arizona Attorney General Office. Although Jerry's comments before, during, and after his presentation show him to be vehemently anti-gun, he is also anti-the-war-on-some-drugs. Hmmm. Richmond, Virginia? As it turns out, Jerry was there during Project Exile. Throughout his off the cuff, (no PowerPoint show), Baptist minister-cadenced (or the affectation thereof) talk, Jerry made no mention of the NRA when he discussed Project Exile.

He said that all policy must be based on good data. (Well, today was an unauspicious start). And based on this data, police must be involved in public health approach to gun violence -- oh, dandy. He stressed Community-Based Policing because police alone cannot prevent crime. I was in agreement with the last part of his statement, but I doubted whether he would approve of my individualist solution.

But it got more Orwellian than the platitude above. He added, Police are no longer crime fighters (that got my attention). They now must maintain order and improve living conditions. Jerry stressed proactive problem solving -- "Prevention." Now, the word prevention means different things to a gunnie, and to someone who stresses a public health approach to gun violence. Public health prevention staff that also happen to not like guns will take a meddlesome approach unlikely to be appreciated by a free people.

Jerry then went into FDR Fireside Chat mode when he that it was imperative that we reduce the fear of crime. I was unsure whether he meant merely calming the populace so that they would be less likely to buy guns to defend themselves or whether he was talking about reducing crime itself. He again stressed community involvment and problem solving to reduce fear of crime.

And, wouldn't you know it, despite all evidence to the contrary, Jerry thought the following would help to reduce crime and violence:

Jerry was a bit peeved to mention that they had lost the Smith and Wesson agreement because some manufacturers wouldn't go along with it. (Yes, that and gun buyers boycotted S&W to the point of Chapter 11 bankruptcy.) ;) I thought I heard a smattering of boos and hisses from the anti-gun audience.

Jerry proclaimed the need to renew the assault weapon ban, adding, "Shame on the NRA.!!!" Jerry remarked that a large percentage of handguns make a policeman's job more difficult. Lastly, he mentioned Project Exile (again without mentioning the later involvement of the NRA). He said it was less about increasing penalties as had been mentioned in the press, and more about changing the culture of criminals. Many of them, he said, wore guns as part of their normal outfit with no more thought than they gave to the color of their socks. Essentially, Jerry said that the cops went to the gangs and said, if we catch you with a gun, you'll be given no slack. Well, there you are.

Next up was Dr. Nicholas Theodore M.D. He is linked to Cornell University, Georgetown, and Bethesda Naval Hospital. I think he is now with Barrow's Neurological, one of the sponsors of this gun violence seminar. He opened his PowerPoint show with a several-minute clip of the famous scene from the 1983 Clint Eastwood film, "Sudden Impact" where Clint clears the diner of bad guys in mid-hold up. Clint takes out his .44 Magnum and methodically takes out four or five shotgun and handgun-wielding bad guys, only to have the last of the baddies hide behind a woman with Clint's gun pointed at the baddie's head as the cop cars arrive. Clint approaches him and utters the line that Ronald Reagan would soon borrow, "Go ahead, make my day."

To my mild surprise, the crowd erupted in cheers and laughter. So, as I have oft said, they don't mind guns, they just don't want you and me to have guns. Nor do they have any problem with government agents using those guns against criminals, or you and me for failing to obey speech codes. I wonder if they would have approved the woman being able to defend herself? Alas, no hollywood clips of that act.

That was the highpoint of Dr. Ted's presentation. The rest was pretty average. He had some stats that showed gunshot wounds at the 4th-leading cause of death/injury (at 2.4%). He cited all of the now-rejected Arthur Kellerman A gun in the home is (43, no 10, no 8, no 6, no 2.7 times more likely...) studies. He mentioned the usual public health "solutions" but relented that legislation may have a role.

Naturally I had several questions in my mind to ask the assembled panel of guest speakers. Demographics, criminology studies which refuted the party line, simple logic queries. But I decided to go against my usual invasive tactics and just sit back and try not to spoil my research project by altering the mood. I wanted to see how these people thought without undue influence from me.

Some old guy sitting next to me asked the first question. He wanted to know if they wanted to ban all guns or are his hunting guns safe? Chief Oliver said that if it were up to him all guns would be banned, but seemed to backtrack as the panel mates rocked uneasily in their chairs. They were very uncomfortable -- was Chief Oliver tipping their hand and handing over the playbook? It was said by the panel, after they collected themselves, that banning hunting guns should be avoided but I got the feeling that this was to be avoided not because these leftists were fans of hunting but because they didn't want to awake the sleeping, lethargic, frickin' stupid giant that is today's hunter (ie, Golfer With Gun).

Another question was asked that prompted Hemenway to say that statewide firearms law preemption was not a good thing. A third question caused Hemenway to talk about the Boston Gun Project. This plan followed something along the lines of Project Exile as explained by Chief Jerry Oliver. It mapped out gangs, followed by a meeting with gangs who were told gun violence would not be tolerated. This method as I recall was in direct competition with what Rudy Guiliani was attempting in New York City at the time. Snide remarks by city officials in both towns were exchanged in the press as to which was more effective (both in crime reduction and cost efficiency).

Hemenway said that the Project faded away because it was too labor intensive (as most public health-style prevention models are). Rudy, by contrast, would just go in and bust heads and prosecute criminals (which John Lott and Gary Kleck say are the most effective ways to fight crime -- gun-carrying being #2 and far less expensive). The Boston Gun Project would follow the criminals to make sure they stayed with their parole officers, stayed employed, etc. Everybody got burned out or complacent. Boston went back to normal. New York's crime rate stayed relatively low.

A social worker asked how to control gun violence in the home. It took this to be a softball question but from what Dr. Rimsza said, I have no idea. It was incoherent. She mentioned that gun violence also includes the mostly untrackable act of threatening with a gun. Okay, and you were going to answer the question, when?

The fifth question asked if all this violence among the young stemmed from gang kids. This is where Dr. Rimsza pulled a bait and switch. She said that the majority of gun *accidents* are not gang related. Uh, here I thought the excellent question had to do with gun violence among kids vs gangs, which we know is gang-related. Dr. Rimsza answered a question not posed. Instead, she answered another question which allowed her to suggest that the answer to the audience-member's question was "no," it was not gang-related. Bad form.

Another person asked about privacy issues for mental records for NICS checks. The panel got a classic deer-in-the-headlights look. They were stumped initially. No, Dr. Hemenway has an answer, oh, never mind. I guess they were stumped after all. I can only suggest that this might be a wedge issue with some in the gun-grabber sect. We'll have to look into this. I know some are all in favor of including mental health records, but in an era of HIPPA privacy protection, maybe this is a Third-Rail issue.

The seventh question had a man stating, "I've seen bikers carrying guns. I've seen signs on shops (check your weapon here), carry permits were anyone can carry a gun." Apparently the questioner didn't like this state of affairs. Dr. Rimsza responded, "Politicians are your hired help. They do what we tell them," suggesting that the anti-gunnies simply weren't vocal enough and had to exercise their political muscle.

The eight question was posed by none other than the human Weeble, Arizonan's for Gun Safety / CAP Gun Violence President, Gerry Anderson, who was sitting in the same second row as I down on the left. She asked what effect reduced funding (of the CDC, I think and a laundry list of other things) would have on research. She also wanted to know about assault weapons. Hemenway said that the data is too small to track because only 1-3% of Americans have assault weapons.

Then, out in the audience, some guy in a suite from Phoenix PD stood up (Saveros Enchavero??) and said, "There will be an effect down the road due to lack of funding. You will see violence increase." Ah yes. The end of the ban that banned nothing but bayonet lugs and the good Phx PD suit predicts an increase in violence when the feds have just released another crime report showing crime down again, to the lowest levels since the early 1960s.

The ninth, (yawn) question had to do with crime rates in various developed nations. Well, not really crime rates but number of homicides which happened to use a gun as the tool. Britain, 60 per year. Japan, 100 per year. USA, 10,000 per year. Gasp !! The man in the audience said that we should get guns off the street, period !! "Good Luck," came the response from the panel.

The tenth and mercifully last question asked about the dangers of paintball. Oh, boy.

The doctor from Barrows Neurological said, "Blanks can kill. BBs. Paintball. I don't think anyone is immune."

Former Chief Jerry Oliver spoke to the behavioral aspect of the question. People involved in "violent activities don't have problem-solving skills." I had to think long and hard about people who play high school football, boxing, police SWAT teams, or those miscreant Wickenburg High School students on the high power rifle team.

I looked at Hemenway as this discussion about paintball continued. He had an odd expression on his face. Dr. Rimsza said in a joking manner, "Dr. Hemenway has something to say. Dr. Hemenway has something to say." Sheepishly, Dr. H. admitted that his public health students had taken him "to a paintball game and I really enjoyed it."

Hmmm. If only Arizona's own Class III dentist Dr. Paul Varda could get Dr. H to meet him at Knob Creek for some full auto fun.

The last presenter up was some woman named Hildie, the President of AGS who gave the closing remarks. Here is her laundry list:

6) Use good data -- yeah, there's a thought, and maybe do what scholars are supposed to do and address each of the opposing side's arguments honestly and fully -- Yeah, develop a scientific method...Naaaah.

With that everyone filed out to the main room where a high-dollar, yet small, table of finger foods (it looked really good but would have violated my diet). I looked around and seeing no press and no celebs to pester, I went to go pee. In the restroom I found Dr. Hemenway trying to extricate himself from one of those uncomfortable restroom conversations where both conversants are facing the wall with their zippers down. He scurried away. When I headed out to find him, he was nowhere to be found.

I had a heavy date with my four-year old daughter. I snagged one of those half-cans of diet Coke and headed home to ease my pain.

My reply to gun grabbers.

1. DC- HIGH MURDER rate. Gun Ban in place since 1974.

2. NYC- HIGH MURDER rate. Gun ban in place since Sullivan Law.

3. Chicago- #1-3 in MURDERS three years running. Gun ban in place.

4. Virginia. Crime DROPPED 45% since passage of CCW Law in 1995.

5. Kennesaw Ga. Crime down a whopping 70% since passage of law making it MADATORY to have a firearm in EVERY HOUSE with firearms safety course mandatory as well.

We need this on tape.

Jerry Oliver, the famous black former Chief of Police from Richmond, Pasadena, and Detroit.

Although I have not met this man in person, I have heard him speak.

He is an idiot.

The author is correct in his characterization of his speaking style wherein he likens him to a Baptist preacher.

He is an educated man, but he falls into the "Ebonic Speak" quite frequently and when he does, it is actually quite embarrassing to listen to him.

I'm not sure if he has ever had an original thought or concept as most of what I've heard or read by him appeared to be slightly plagiarized.

If he is the best spokesman and advocate that the Gun Grabbers in Arizona can come up with, then it is apparent they are grasping at straws.

I submit that he will do us, the 2d Amendment supporters, much more good than he will the Gun Grabber idiots.

Being a fool is a contagious condition and he is seriously infected with it and all his "colleagues" are showing symptoms.

The show began some 15-20 minutes late as they waited for the room to fill up. It didn't. Even after an hour of steady trickling, the smallish auditorium was at best 30% full.

No, no, no. They crammed 900,000 people into that room. It was a complete success. So they'll be telling us tommorow. /sarcasm

They have allies in many places. I'd post this as a "vanity" if I knew how and if I were completely sure it was appropriate, but here's a recent story.

Yesterday I went into a local branch of AmSouth Bank to cash a small ($100) check from a customer. The teller asked me for ID and I gave her my drivers' license. Well, my drivers' license had a corner cracked off because it stays in my back pocket all day and gets sat on. In fact, I was on my way to renew it. She said it was "mutilated" and asked for another ID. I gave her my Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit, which is almost identical to the drivers' license - same information, same photo and state- issued. She told me that AmSouth doesn't accept that as valid ID. I said that anybody and their dog can get a drivers' license, but that those with HCPs have been background-checked. I later called AmSouth's administrative offices and was at first told that they accept any gov't.-issued ID, but then the lady talked to her supervisor and came back and told me that HCPs are one form of gov't.-issued ID that they don't accept. I asked if she could tell me what other types of gov't.-issued they don't accept, but she couldn't tell me.

If your bank won't accept a valid state issued photo ID because it's a handgun carry permit, maybe you should look for another bank.

This is a FAN-DAMN-TAST-TIC piece of citizen reporting.

If the usual smear of presstitutes had half of Mr. DeStephen's skepticism and balance, our nation's problems would begin to dissolve overnight. The author is an outstanding example of everything we need more of in the New Media. He is informed and articulate and, best of all, he thinks in terms of consequences and opportunities - like this example:

"Another person asked about privacy issues for mental records for NICS checks. The panel got a classic deer-in-the-headlights look. They were stumped initially. No, Dr. Hemenway has an answer, oh, never mind. I guess they were stumped after all. I can only suggest that this might be a wedge issue with some in the gun-grabber sect."

This is going to get sent to a few folks today. I love the freedom of the citizen press!

as an aside to this, I had a clerk refuse my passport as ID in '81--she had no idea what it was

And then come full circle, back to the DMV --- they wouldnt accept my credit card for payment of my DRIVERS LISCENCE renewal because on the back I always 'sign' it with 'see photo ID' ...

The "Health Issue" agenda has been around for a long time--I think it began during the X42 administration with CDC.

But that approach doesn't work. Here in Milwaukee an ER doc teamed up with an ex-Planned Parenthood type (money from the Chicago-based anti-gun bunch...) and these two got NOWHERE with the agenda.

Hope they keep trying--it won't work.

Howdy gang.

It's been so long since I've been on FR that I had to create another account.

It was very difficult to hold my tongue at this symposium. But, sometimes we need to change tactics to get a different view.

Here is the link to the Arizona Jr. High Power Rifle Team, (placed second at Camp Perry in 2004). Notice the number of girls on the team holding their RockRiverArms National Match AR-15s. Some of these members are from the Wickenburg HS team which I mentioned above.

http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/azrifleteam.html

Uh... I can't find the AR-15 pose. They've updated the web page.

http://users.cableaz.com/%7Ejrshooting/2004gcsg/mini-az%20games%204.jpg

Also, here is a link to the Chicago Tribune article.

http://www.gunlaws.com/CCWBanquetIn%20ChiTrib.htm

The woman who was quoted describing gun-toting as a "fashion statement" was interviewed for 45 minutes by the Trib reporter. She mentioned numerous salient facts about self defense, training, RKBA, and gun laws. After her interview she turned to a fellow gunnie and asked him how she did. He said that she did fine, but that he added that he knew which quote he was going to use and that he would get even that simple quote wrong. The seasoned gunnie activist was correct. "Fashion statement." The reporter later defended his use of that quote as being "representative of the 45 minute interview (and he claimed it wasn't really 45 minutes).

Rick

If your bank won't accept a valid state issued photo ID because it's a handgun carry permit, maybe you should look for another bank.

Pretty much the only place that will accept Illinois' FOID as a valid form of ID are gun stores and ranges.

State offices have this boilerplate disclaimer that they cannot accept the FOID because it is "self generated".

All this hassle, and it's not even good as a carry permit -- Illinois has no provisions for "civilian" CHL. Sure, the Chicago city council members can carry, but not the peons.

Tennessee's Handgun Carry Permit is not "self-generated" at all. It is almost the same in appearance as our DL - laminated, photo, all the same information and issued by the Dep't. of Safety. I don't ever show it unless I'm asked to show a 2nd form of ID for some reason or at a traffic stop when I'm carrying a gun. I take it that in Illinois, you have to have state permission to even OWN a gun.

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